Academies - What would be considered a success?

[Highlander35]

Maybe cap it so that you can only use a certain number of picks to match a bid? i.e. you can only use 2 picks to match a bid outside the top 10, where you can use three. Hopefully prevent the scourge of 30-65 picks being dominated by Academy clubs.

 

[Cleric]

A 9% chance simply isn't true. Victorian teams preferentially draft Victorian talent, and the same with SA and WA. GWS almost never drafts WA or SA talent for example. Counting all kids drafted over the last three years SA kids have a 26% chance of staying in SA, and WA kids have 30% chance of staying in WA.

Edit: The Crows are an odd team. They're actually eligible for the old retention allowance that Brisbane and Sydney used to receive because they run with such a low percentage of local talent. Very much the outlier compared to other teams in SA and WA.

Tell me how many of the top SA (first round) talent get to stay in SA.

 

[dlanod]

Tell me how many of the top SA (first round) talent get to stay in SA.

Go back and edit your post to say "first round talent" if you want to change the goal posts after your initial post.

 

[hepd]

Maybe cap it so that you can only use a certain number of picks to match a bid? i.e. you can only use 2 picks to match a bid outside the top 10, where you can use three. Hopefully prevent the scourge of 30-65 picks being dominated by Academy clubs.

Could probably make it so that you need a pick in the same round that the player is bid in - so GWS would have needed two first round draft picks to secure both Hopper and Kennedy. I found it a bit curious to hear that Kennedy was actually keen to play for a Victorian team. Are the kids able to elect to head into the National draft like FS or are they obligated to be drafted by their academy?

 

[dlanod]

Are the kids able to elect to head into the National draft like FS or are they obligated to be drafted by their academy?

I was surprised to find out that they're obliged to be taken by the academy club if the club wants them. I think it should be like F/S, except make the decision time at the beginning of the year they become draft eligible so the club doesn't get screwed by putting time into a kid who's going to knock them back.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

Tell me how many of the top SA (first round) talent get to stay in SA.

Its hard to look at it from a draftees perspective, SA and WA regularly produce comparable talent to Victoria. The talent from NSW and Queensland, hasn't been comparable to SA or WA, hence the reason why you havent had priority access.

How many first round talent have been able to stay in Queensland or NSW in the last ten years?
I'd say more have stayed in SA or WA as there hasn't been the talent available for QLD/NSW. The academies are starting to develop that talent, and when it gets to a stage of producing comparable talent without the assistance of the Academies, I'm sure the priority access will be removed.

From a clubs perspective, you'll get something back when the highly rated talent want to go Home, Polec, Toumpass, Ebert, Menzel, Jetta, Crisp, Yeo only have 2 clubs to choose from if they decide to go home. Or when a junior States he doesnt want to move Interstate and slides in the Draft i.e.Wingard

Adelaide list is in a different situatuon as pointed out, and have undoubtably been hurt by Go Home just as much as anyone.

 

[Cleric]

Go back and edit your post to say "first round talent" if you want to change the goal posts after your initial post.

The best SA and WA kids have a 9% chance of getting to an SA or WA club. This is unfair and needs to be addressed by the AFL.
We would be happy to use the same points system as you guys do to get them. That then leaves all the Vic kids for Vic teams.

 

[Cleric]

Its hard to look at it from a draftees perspective, SA and WA regularly produce comparable talent to Victoria. The talent from NSW and Queensland, hasn't been comparable to SA or WA, hence the reason why you havent had priority access.

How many first round talent have been able to stay in Queensland or NSW in the last ten years?
I'd say more have stayed in SA or WA as there hasn't been the talent available for QLD/NSW. The academies are starting to develop that talent, and when it gets to a stage of producing comparable talent without the assistance of the Academies, I'm sure the priority access will be removed.

From a clubs perspective, you'll get something back when the highly rated talent want to go Home, Polec, Toumpass, Ebert, Menzel, Jetta, Crisp, Yeo only have 2 clubs to choose from if they decide to go home. Or when a junior States he doesnt want to move Interstate and slides in the Draft i.e.Wingard

Adelaide list is in a different situatuon as pointed out, and have undoubtably been hurt by Go Home just as much as anyone.

So now the GWS academy is producing more top talent than they need, should they be allowed to continue with it? The Riverina area is already a football state.
The kids that came out of that area this year, how many of them were playing Rugby and converted by GWS to AFL and how many were already AFL?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So now the GWS academy is producing more top talent than they need, should they be allowed to continue with it? The Riverina area is already a football state.
The kids that came out of that area this year, how many of them were playing Rugby and converted by GWS to AFL and how many were already AFL?

The Riverina may be a 'AFL area' but it doesn't produce many players usually. No issue with the Academy being there but it should be split between 2 clubs (not saying Sydney, you could make it a Victorian team if they wanted to do the work)

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

The best SA and WA kids have a 9% chance of getting to an SA or WA club. This is unfair and needs to be addressed by the AFL.
We would be happy to use the same points system as you guys do to get them. That then leaves all the Vic kids for Vic teams.

So in 2012 you would have split a haul of Toumpas, Mayes, Menzel, Grundy, Kennedy, Broomhead with Aish, Scharenberg and Dunsten the following year

In 2008 Freo and WC would have split Nic-Nat, Hill, Yarren, Rich, Swift, Ballyntine, Walters
In 2009 Moaribito, Sheppard, Lucas, Jetta, Fyfe, Duncan and Swallow, Bennell, Conca, Crisps the following year.

The point being NSW and Queensland have never produced comparable talent, this years crop is one out of the box compared to previous years. The Academies need to take credit for either developing or identifing this talent that hasn't previous been produced from these areas.

So now the GWS academy is producing more top talent than they need, should they be allowed to continue with it? The Riverina area is already a football state.
The kids that came out of that area this year, how many of them were playing Rugby and converted by GWS to AFL and how many were already AFL?

The Rivera zone seem to be the area that cause the most concern, I think this will be the first area address in any re-zoning. Being a GWS zone I don't see it changing anytime soon, the program has certainly help develop the talent. The actual numbers of converts I'm not sure, the academy isn't just set up to convert talent, it has multiple purposes.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

46

But you're right - it's closer to a hundred and twenty years of the VFL/AFL/Powers that be ignoring the majority of my state. Leaving it undeveloped or underdeveloped.

But your response and your attitude definitely reveals the insular small minded myopic and quite frankly pathetic view of what this sport is, and what it could be.

Typical Victorian s#it who doesn't believe the game should be played north of the Murray and hates everything and everyone who tries to further the game outside your pathetic little backward state.

Have you actually read any of my posts? I've already stated that I think GWS and GCS should have an academy.

You're either an imbecile or you lack basic comprehension skills.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

There's not too many serious ones that have half the teams within an hour of each other but all the rest an hour or more's flight away, or have such a "go home" culture, or have such a strong split between areas traditionally supportive of the code and areas that are not, or require players to sign off on trades.

So? You lost seem to be hedging your bets with your arguments, it's flip flopping between they good because they're growing the game in a non-traditional football state and balancing the ledger of equality. Of course which argument you roll out depends on what kind of post you're replying to.

I've already agreed that I think they're a good idea so I don't know why you lot at frothing at the mouth so much

 

[Cleric]

So in 2012 you would have split a haul of Toumpas, Mayes, Menzel, Grundy, Kennedy, Broomhead with Aish, Scharenberg and Dunsten the following year

In 2008 Freo and WC would have split Nic-Nat, Hill, Yarren, Rich, Swift, Ballyntine, Walters
In 2009 Moaribito, Sheppard, Lucas, Jetta, Fyfe, Duncan and Swallow, Bennell, Conca, Crisps the following year.

The point being NSW and Queensland have never produced comparable talent, this years crop is one out of the box compared to previous years. The Academies need to take credit for either developing or identifing this talent that hasn't previous been produced from these areas.



The Rivera zone seem to be the area that cause the most concern, I think this will be the first area address in any re-zoning. Being a GWS zone I don't see it changing anytime soon, the program has certainly help develop the talent. The actual numbers of converts I'm not sure, the academy isn't just set up to convert talent, it has multiple purposes.

My point exactly. In 2012 and 2013 you listed all those top SA kids. Not one of them got to be drafted by an SA club. Do you think that is fair? Wouldnt it be great if some of the top SA kids could play in their home state?

No, the academies were to get pathways for local kids to get into the AFL. We all remember Sydney trotting out Heeney where he said if it wasnt for the Swans Academy he would be playing Rugby. There is no need for GWS to be just swooping up talented AFL kids from the Riverina area, when they never were playing league and already had the pathway through the TAC cup.
You cant say that there hasnt been enough time for GWS to make any ground in Western Sydney but then claim the reason for those quality kids in the Riverina is due to the work put in by them. Cuts both ways.
The AFL need to cut that area away from GWS, split Sydney into West and East and there is your academys.

 

[dlanod]

So? You lost seem to be hedging your bets with your arguments, it's flip flopping between they good because they're growing the game in a non-traditional football state and balancing the ledger of equality.

It's not flip flopping when you think both are right - they are good for multiple reasons, as you note.

Of course which argument you roll out depends on what kind of post you're replying to.

Of course.

I've already agreed that I think they're a good idea so I don't know why you lot at frothing at the mouth so much

In that specific post? Pointing out the AFL is a very different beast to most other professional sporting leagues is "frothing at the mouth"?

 

[dlanod]

My point exactly. In 2012 and 2013 you listed all those top SA kids. Not one of them got to be drafted by an SA club. Do you think that is fair? Wouldnt it be great if some of the top SA kids could play in their home state?

You mean like Toumpas and Polec and Ebert?

 

[coniglio_number1]

Lol Kennedy wouldn't even be on an afl list if it wasn't for gws. He said so himself

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

My point exactly. In 2012 and 2013 you listed all those top SA kids. Not one of them got to be drafted by an SA club. Do you think that is fair? Wouldnt it be great if some of the top SA kids could play in their home state?

No, the academies were to get pathways for local kids to get into the AFL. We all remember Sydney trotting out Heeney where he said if it wasnt for the Swans Academy he would be playing Rugby. There is no need for GWS to be just swooping up talented AFL kids from the Riverina area, when they never were playing league and already had the pathway through the TAC cup.
You cant say that there hasnt been enough time for GWS to make any ground in Western Sydney but then claim the reason for those quality kids in the Riverina is due to the work put in by them. Cuts both ways.
The AFL need to cut that area away from GWS, split Sydney into West and East and there is your academys.

You seem to be missing the point, can you see that there has always been good talent taken out of SA/WA? Even without the assistance of an academy.

Both states produce more proportional talent then Teams that play there. To have priority access to them for no additional reason then a kid deserves the right to play in his states, will only make the problem worse.

The drafted player is the Tip of the Iceberg for the academies. They try to convert other sportsman, give Draftees a comparable pathway similar to the SANFL, WAFL or TAC cup programs, help combat homesickness of the non traditional States. Long term raises interest in the game, raises more cash, the standard of competition at the NEAFL.

 

[Cleric]

You seem to be missing the point, can you see that there has always been good talent taken out of SA/WA? Even without the assistance of an academy.

Both states produce more proportional talent then Teams that play there. To have priority access to them for no additional reason then a kid deserves the right to play in his states, will only make the problem worse.

The drafted player is the Tip of the Iceberg for the academies. They try to convert other sportsman, give Draftees a comparable pathway similar to the SANFL, WAFL or TAC cup programs, help combat homesickness of the non traditional States. Long term raises interest in the game, raises more cash, the standard of competition at the NEAFL.

Both SA clubs, and proberbly WA clubs put more money into jr programs here than the interstate clubs put into their academies. They run all the school programs and the like, the only difference is that they dont get the option to draft them.
The SA footy community pays for the absolute vast majority of jr development here in SA, yet the AFL fully funds the TAC cup for Victorian jrs. Not only that but the SA clubs have to pay the AFL $100k a year to help fund it as well.
The AFL does sweet FA to promote jr talent in SA and WA, our clubs and local leagues do. Its time we get the ability to get a payback for it.

 

[Cleric]

You mean like Toumpas and Polec and Ebert?

Did we draft them?

 

[Colonial]

The AFL does sweet FA to promote jr talent in SA and WA, our clubs and local leagues do. Its time we get the ability to get a payback for it.

They dont control wa and sa. Why should they promote it?
AFL will be more involved there if they controlled those regions.

 

[hepd]

The AFL does sweet FA to promote jr talent in SA and WA, our clubs and local leagues do. Its time we get the ability to get a payback for it.

It's not as if they have to anyway.

The money you guys pour into your junior pathways aren't just for draftees that make it into the AFL. It's a very small proportion of your juniors that actually make it to AFL - the rest will find themselves at state leagues.

Why do you think your state leagues (SANFL, WAFL) are competitive and of such high standard? NEAFL is a complete laughing stock at the moment.

 

[dlanod]

Did we draft them?

Did they get them for cents on the dollar?

 

[philthy05]

It's not as if they have to anyway.

The money you guys pour into your junior pathways aren't just for draftees that make it into the AFL. It's a very small proportion of your juniors that actually make it to AFL - the rest will find themselves at state leagues.

Why do you think your state leagues (SANFL, WAFL) are competitive and of such high standard? NEAFL is a complete laughing stock at the moment.

This is an issue for me...

if you wanted to put a measure on the success of expan teams growing the game you should have the strength of the Neafl and the under 18's teams as one of the main key performance indicators if not the main indicator.


Now it may be early days , and I may not be privy to all the going ons that are happening , but I don't have any confidence that in ten years time the Neafl or juniors will be any stronger.

The expan teams will continue to pluck the best talent , and that's all I think will happen. I could be wrong , but if you wanted to put money on it I doubt you would get many willing to take that bet.

All it will do is even up the numbers for the expan teams.

 

[Colonial]

This is an issue for me...

if you wanted to put a measure on the success of expan teams growing the game you should have the strength of the Neafl and the under 18's teams as one of the main key performance indicators if not the main indicator.


Now it may be early days , and I may not be privy to all the going ons that are happening , but I don't have any confidence that in ten years time the Neafl or juniors will be any stronger.

The expan teams will continue to pluck the best talent , and that's all I think will happen. I could be wrong , but if you wanted to put money on it I doubt you would get many willing to take that bet.

All it will do is even up the numbers for the expan teams.

Yeah the talent will never grow from nsw/act

Wait what happened again this year?

 

[dlanod]

Another seven eight guys who've spent time in an academy drafted today (assuming I didn't miss any - William, Uebergang, Cornell, Wagner, Smith, Chol, Coughlan and Joyce), only one two of which went to their academy club.