2015/16 Pre-Season Thread

[Ramify]

Disagree

Last year he was a little inconsistent from qtr to qtr however this was largely due to lack of continuity with his footy however prior to that his footy has been pretty consistent

You don't win a B&F by playing 2.5 qrts per game

Nah, he's always faded in and out to some extent. I can remember maybe 3-5 games where he has been dominant for 4 quarters. Its a thing Ive watched very carefully over his career.
Don't take that as me saying he gos missing entirely for 1.5 quarters, just that he hasn't been able to maintain the same level of intensity over the course of a full game in comparison to other mids who I'd consider elite.

You can easily win A bnf playing 2.5 quarters of football playing with the heart he plays with.Its what the voters love to see.
Wait till he starts averaging 33-35 damaging possessions per game.Then no one will get near him, and then I'll call him elite.

 

[Thinker]

If a player has some other decent AFL qualities then I don't exactly see it as a bad thing (again, will state I think Jaensch's 1v1 defensive work had improved quite a bit).

I recall us moving Knight away from HBF since his kicking could really let him down from time to time but at HFF, those ones that missed would just result in a point/OOTF which didn't hurt us much and we got a lot more from him as a forward then we did as a running defender.


Either way, he probably won't make an appearance to until the second half of the year as there have been a few recruits pushing for selection in a similar role (hbf/wing) who should mostly get a full pre season behind themselves and have themselves ahead of Jaensch in the pecking order.

Knight has never played HBF for Crows, either at SANFL or AFL? I don't recall too many poor kicks at HFF either? He played the slingshot role that Cameron has also played several times. This isn't a running defender role, but an opportunist wing/forward role that Walshy introduced.

I think Jaensch has some solid qualities. I'm just not sure it will be enough to push others out, unless their form drops. The wing position will be hotly contested and I'm sure the NAB cup will try several options.

 

[1970crow]

Same question: will Talia win a Brownlow?

Will Dangerfield have an opportunity to win a Brownlow ? .....yes & that's Elite

Surely you're not suggesting that an umpire's midfielder award is the determine factor as to whether a key position player is elite or not.

On the subject, I don't see Sloane as being amongst the elite players of the comp. I see him in that next bracket of very good players.

 

[Golumless]

Nah, he's always faded in and out to some extent. I can remember maybe 3-5 games where he has been dominant for 4 quarters. Its a thing Ive watched very carefully over his career.
Don't take that as me saying he gos missing entirely for 1.5 quarters, just that he hasn't been able to maintain the same level of intensity over the course of a full game in comparison to other mids who I'd consider elite.

You can easily win A bnf playing 2.5 quarters of football playing with the heart he plays with.Its what the voters love to see.
Wait till he starts averaging 33-35 damaging possessions per game.Then no one will get near him, and then I'll call him elite.

It's rare anyone ever pushes a 32+ average disposals per season, with the only cases that have are Dane Swan and Gary Ablett since 1998. That said, to get there you'd need to be on the bottom of the pack at just about every contest, which Sloane just isn't.

The players Sloane remind me of are Bartel and Hayes. They only ever maxed out at roughly 26-27, which is probably what Sloane peak is, which considering how he plays is more than sufficient to be elite.

 

[dylan123]

Knight has never played HBF for Crows, either at SANFL or AFL? I don't recall too many poor kicks at HFF either? He played the slingshot role that Cameron has also played several times. This isn't a running defender role, but an opportunist wing/forward role that Walshy introduced.

I think Jaensch has some solid qualities. I'm just not sure it will be enough to push others out, unless their form drops. The wing position will be hotly contested and I'm sure the NAB cup will try several options.

Sorry, I meant Chris Knights.

 

[1970crow]

I define elite as being in the top 10% for a players respective position. I consider Sloane and Talia to be in this category.

Based on that metric, I'd agree with Talia, 36 KPD's, I'd agree he'd be in the top 4. Sloane probably not, 3 primary mids per side, 54 in total, is he in the top 5 or 6 comp wide, quite doubtful in my mind.

 

[Apsaalooke]

Did you just say Sloane is a better player than Robert Harvey?

Harvey was a great player no doubt, but Sloane probably does more of the team things. Harvey was a gut runner before they became the norm. He'd run and run, put his hands on his knees and look like he was about to die, then run out of sight again. But I don't recall too many tackles or defensive chases. i thought of him as a rich man's Kane Cornes minus the tagging.

 

[Alex99]

Harvey was a great player no doubt, but Sloane probably does more of the team things. Harvey was a gut runner before they became the norm. He'd run and run, put his hands on his knees and look like he was about to die, then run out of sight again. But I don't recall too many tackles or defensive chases. i thought of him as a rich man's Kane Cornes minus the tagging.

I love Sloane but I feel you are doing a massive injustice to how good Robert Harvey was.

If he was a rich mans Kane Cornes, he's be bloody Bill Gates and Kane Cornes would need to be some flog who lives down by the river.

 

[Apsaalooke]

I love Sloane but I feel you are doing a massive injustice to how good Robert Harvey was.

If he was a rich mans Kane Cornes, he's be bloody Bill Gates and Kane Cornes would need to be some flog who lives down by the river.

OK a millionaire's Kane Cornes then. His best attribute though was every time he won a Brownlow, we'd win a premiership.

 

[Allefgib]

Sloane is elite in my book. He opitimises precisely what I want my footy players to posses in attitude and action. I know Ablett is a more skilled player - but in the same way I'd rather Eddie Vedder to be the lead singer of my band compared to Placido Domingo - I'd rather Sloane in my team.

I also see Betts, Tex, Talia, Smith, Jacobs as elite performers of their roles and attitudes to the contest ... as "eilte" is a massively subjective term, you can't definitively say if a player is elite or not - it has to have the qualifier of personal opinion attached

Champion Data Define Elite.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-02/crows-eagles-set-to-soar

Sloaney was in there

 

[FR0GGY]

Champion Data Define Elite.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-04-02/crows-eagles-set-to-soar

Sloaney was in there

They were on the money with the eagles and crows climbing.

 

[Allefgib]

Correct ....but that doesn't make Sloane Elite

The player we can least afford to lose from our midfield ......but that doesn't make him elite

Elite ....champion player .....star ....most overused terms in AFL football by media commentators trying to build the game up

Now that Dangerfield is gone ....the media will focus on putting the spotlight on the next Crows champion ......this doesn't neccessarily make it so

Not necessarily but he was rated elite earlier in the season. By a system that's appears to be the best assessment in the industry.

 

[Allefgib]

They were on the money with the eagles and crows climbing.

They are on the money alot for mine.

 

[Allefgib]

That's foolish to use stats as an indicator of a players Eliteness ......that makes Ryan Crowley an elite player as a tagger

To me, and this just my opinion ...Elite = Champion of the sport

AFL uses its champion players to be ambassadors for the sport, it's public face, and pays a marketing fee accordingly

Is Sloane the public face of the AFL ? .....or Crowley?

So now you want to us to agree to your definition of elite and then answer your questoins.

What's the point in debating who is Elite if we don't agree on the definition first.

I like the 'top x%' of players in their position. It's what CD uses I believe and I like the results it puts out.

But sure - when it comes to your particular definition of what you consider elite- i'm sure you are right as to who actually is elite.

 

[Allefgib]

Was Steven Silvagni a champion/elite?
Chris Langford?
Glenn Jakovich?
Darren Glass?
Ben Rutten?

Defenders can and are very elite players

All elite for mine.

 

[Allefgib]

Tex
Sloane
Talia
Jacobs
Betts

Smith

 

[Allefgib]

Can any defender ever win a brownlow...

Rather than argue over the term elite, I will settle for A graders - Sloane, Jacobs, walker, talia, Smith & Betts.

Question is who will join them - B crouch (if fit), lever, Laird, knight, menzel? Need a couple of the younger guys to get to this level.

I prefer elite.

I like the relativity of it. The number of elite players in your squad then becomes a key indicator - as its relative to the other teams.

 

[Allefgib]

Do defenders win the MVP award is many other sports?

Steph Curry in the NBA is all about offence
Neymar and Cristiano Ronaldo are about scoring goals
Steve Smith is about scoring runs, not blocking.
Tiger Woods was the greatest based on his aggressive driving.

I guess, the closes to a defensive player to win a MVP award would be Salvdor Perez who is the catcher for the Kansas City Royals - he won the World Series MVP.

So, do defensive players win most valuable player awards. It doesn't seem to be a common theme.

I agree with you that Talia is elite but defenders just don't get that credit.

I know next to nothing about baseball bud. But don't catchers hit? How was his hitting average RBI all that shit?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I prefer elite.

I like the relativity of it. The number of elite players in your squad then becomes a key indicator - as its relative to the other teams.

So you can't compare relativities with the number of A graders...

 

[Allefgib]

I agree that the term Elite is bandied around very casually.
Until Rory can do what Rory does consistently over 4 quarters of football he shouldn't be considered elite.
Up till now he has been a 2.5 quarter player.

Those calling him elite right now, which attributes of his would you consider top echelon?
At present I'd only describe his Heart/Passion as elite.

On game impact as measured by CD rating points.

Heart/Passion has ALOT to do with that. But its not the only thing.

 

[lunacy]

Tex
Sloane
Talia
Jacobs
Betts

And Smith. I reckon B.Crouch when fit would also get games for the Hawks.

 

[Allefgib]

Any idea on how this is calculated?

I reckon without even thinking about it,I could name at least 10 current midfielders who I'd say have greater influence on the outcome of a game /season than Rory.

There's an explanation. (or used to be at least - not looked at it recently).
It looks at nearly every a player does and the impact it has on improving the probability his side will score as opposed to the opposition side.

Kicking sideways in the backline to back in front of the oppoistion goal with no pressure on you (or the kick receiver) gets you next to 0 points.
Winning a contested footy and then kicking lace out to a leading forward and hitting them 20m out dead in front whilst being tackled by 4 guys gets you huge amount of points. Even if the guy you hit kicks it OOF. (he gets some points for the mark, but probably goes negative on the OOF turnover).

It's not foolproof. It doesn't allow for defensive plays that just blankets an option from even being taken. But it's a very good system for mine. And they continually refine it.

 

[Danger in Texas]

Is he likely though to have a real chance of ever winning a Brownlow?

So by your definition, Shane Woewodin and Matt Priddis are elite. If those two are, surely Sloane is too?

 

[Danger in Texas]

So Priddis is elite. Woewodin was elite. Brad Hardie was elite. They not only had a chance to win one - they actually did.

Using the Brownlow as a measure of a player is a really bad idea.

Beat me to it

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

And Smith. I reckon B.Crouch when fit would also get games for the Hawks.

Laird would too imo - ahead of dureya.

Jenkins & Jacobs ahead of mcevoy & ceglar.