The BigFooty Liverpool Army

[Del80659]

WARD was not registered before the 2-2 draw so he can't play this one

 

[Zidane98]

If Lallana is worth over £10m then there are posters posting on this board who are worth at least £5m.

Wouldn't mind keeping Milner around as a squad player. The squad lacks "winners" and he at least has experience when it comes to winning things. He is still useful in certain types of game but should not be starting for Liverpool every week.

Transfermarkt values him at 15m pounds. He's an England international, was very good for us in our winning streak last season. Ridiculous to suggest he's worth less than £10m when Naismith goes for 8.5, Borini 10m & Shelvey for 12m.

 

[Sozabarus]

WARD was not registered before the 2-2 draw so he can't play this one

Yep, same reason that Caulker won't be playing either.

 

[Cooldude]

Sounds to me like Klopp said that injured players will come back but given the current situation they got Caulker and have been looking at options up top. That's very different to the wholesale squad changes some expected and for which a new manager often has the prerogative to do.

Naismith is a good get for Norwich. Long I think of as a faster, but smaller Ings. I don't know if he's more profligate; similar things were said of Ings.

And in the battle versus subjectivity and confirmation bias, here's a table of what players have contributed in terms of goals+assists this season:

View attachment 208173

I added the total goals/assists in red and consequent per minute figure (plus the red crosses for injured players). So you can argue Lallana is the least consistent of our top attacking contributers, but not by much. Last season he had 9 goals/assists, ahead of Lambert (8) and Balotelli (7), but well behind Sterling (18), Hendo (17), Gerrard and Coutinho (both 13). He averaged at 320mins per gl/asst which could be accounted for by his injuries. I still see him as a midfielder who has been put further forward because he does know how to score, while Allen/Lucas miss way too much and Can is still learning. But his goal return isn't top notch. We were so good with Sterling and Coutinho in the middle because we could dribble past players to cause the panic/space for the forwards. Lallana can dribble, but overall he just seems too slow.

EDIT: Note that the strikers have understandably better per minute records and all are pretty good. We do score. This is my repeated motif, but I still can't help feeling it is the fragile confidence around the club that is the major problem. Mignolet has one of the best clean sheet records but is widely derided. When Sturridge plays we often score bags of goals and both Ings and Origi have looked like they could be speedy finishers that fit well with the rest of the team (we're yet to see Firmino score using speed, he looks more like the upgrade on Lallana, even if he does have a Kewell-like ability to lose the ball easily due to how often he is trying a lower-percentage options). The team is overwhelmingly young and like Spurs should get better with time, but in my opinion they have a higher ceiling because we are Liverpool and they are Spurs.

Actually Jurg said a long time ago it's up to the players to prove their worth between now and the summer so he hasn't exactly been foolproofing them. Of course he'd back his squad in public, he has never been one to throw people under the bus even at Dortmund, but he also axed loads in Dortmund when he needed to.

Those stats actually make our creativity look even more deplorable. I know you love to say everyone else who doesn't have the same point of view as you as having "confirmation bias" but it is something that at least goes both ways, at least with the interpretation of stats is concerned. First of all if you look at the time per goal, it actually makes for depressing reading, those are absolutely horrific numbers. But if you're gonna muddle it by doing goals+assist per min, which is a bit of an unreliable stat especially when someone has an assist means someone else has a goal, too, it's harder to interpret it with any clear confidence. Better off isolating both assist and goals per min and look at both stats separately to come into a clear judgment

At any rate, if we are really into this goals+assist per min, then it still looks bad, since too many of the players aren't involved in a goal in anyway between 3-6 matches and loads of them are first teamers. If you want a team that's able to finish in the top 4 you need to average closer to 2 goals a game and those stats have us at a goal per game at best which is very poor. It's a damning indictment on a lot of the players

And you can use stats to make anyone, even Stewart Downing and Adam look good, coz Comolli basically justified signing them on a spread sheet, coz they are amongst the highest in the league for chances created or crosses and other things. Mignolet has the most clean sheets if you look at the stats, but anyone who watches the game sees his howlers, sees the way his mistakes cost the team and also his very inconsistent shotstopping and know there's a problem. 12 out of 15 games we've conceded in the league this season, we've conceded with the first shot on target at our goal. Even on Sunday against the Mancs, he for some reason dropped to his knees for Rooney's chance, he just crumbled. It's Brad Jones territory of bad with him sometimes and the stats cannot pad that up.

I suspect if you isolate the stats to just league games which is the important bit it'd look even worse, we've had 25 goals in 22 league games this season, lowest of any Liverpool side ever at this stage. There's a reason why. You can hope by some magic some of these players will somehow come good, but the fact is this side is short on at the very least the wide areas and need more goalscorers on the pitch. This attack will definitely need a lot of rejig to get it to a standard where it's good enough to get into the top 4

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Those stats actually make our creativity look even more deplorable. I know you love to say everyone else who doesn't have the same point of view as you as having "confirmation bias" but it is something that at least goes both ways, at least with the interpretation of stats is concerned. First of all if you look at the time per goal, it actually makes for depressing reading, those are absolutely horrific numbers. But if you're gonna muddle it by doing goals+assist per min, which is a bit of an unreliable stat especially when someone has an assist means someone else has a goal, too, it's harder to interpret it with any clear confidence. Better off isolating both assist and goals per min and look at both stats separately to come into a clear judgment

Yeah, nah. It's pretty obvious that goals per minute stats make players who assist more look unreasonably bad; and there's nothing 'muddled' or "unreliable" in combining goals and assists. That shows an individual's direct contribution to the final score. The only way your interpretation makes sense is if I was suggesting the whole stats table shows that the team is scoring enough goals. Which I didn't say and which no-one is saying.

But feel free to consider those stats "deplorable", "horrific", "depressing" and a "damning indictment"... And in order to provide the stats you claim are missing, you can very easily use a calculator and divide "match time (mins)" by assists. Plus by following the link I provided in the OP to the Anfield Online stats page you can see who scored which goals in which competition. It's really that easy!

However, I'm not sure how you can say that putting 6 past Southampton in the League Cup doesn't really count... why wouldn't that be reasonably analogous to a PL game? Why aren't Lallana's goals in our two 1-1 results in the Europa League relevant to assessing his skills? All our cup results have been draws or one-goal wins except for that Southampton win, so the contributions seem important to me.

 

[Cooldude]

Yeah, nah. It's pretty obvious that goals per minute stats make players who assist more look unreasonably bad; and there's nothing 'muddled' or "unreliable" in combining goals and assists. That shows an individual's direct contribution to the final score. The only way your interpretation makes sense is if I was suggesting the whole stats table shows that the team is scoring enough goals. Which I didn't say and which no-one is saying.

But feel free to consider those stats "deplorable", "horrific", "depressing" and a "damning indictment"... And in order to provide the stats you claim are missing, you can very easily use a calculator and divide "match time (mins)" by assists. Plus by following the link I provided in the OP to the Anfield Online stats page you can see who scored which goals in which competition. It's really that easy!

However, I'm not sure how you can say that putting 6 past Southampton in the League Cup doesn't really count... why wouldn't that be reasonably analogous to a PL game? Why aren't Lallana's goals in our two 1-1 results in the Europa League relevant to assessing his skills?

Wow I thought you were learning to have a normal conversation then you go your full obnoxious patronizing tone, well done

Really you think goals per min make people who assist look bad and that's your reason for using goals + assist? That doesn't even make any sense but I guess it'd probably do in your world. I already explained why separating goals and assist per min makes more sense but I know from past experience with you that you won't have a bar of it even if you're completely wrong so go ahead

But you really think the majority of the players being involved in a goal every 3-6 matches isn't deplorable? Okay I guess your standards are more aligned with clubs like Sunderland then

Oh wait you didn't even compile those stats yourself, you just pulled it from some website and regurgitated it in some poor fashion, now that explains why you can't even interpret it properly

Actually I didn't say the league cup goals don't really count, I'm saying the league is the most important competition and therefore if you just look at the stats in the league, where it matters most, it'd actually look even worse. But feel free to put words in people's mouths

EDIT: Actually Sunderland's scored more league goals than us, so even that standard's a bit too high

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Given I'm arguing that our squad is good, here is my ideal game next season if we make no other signings, with starters in bold and back-up for injuries not. And yes, I have an extra player in midfield/attack. That's to reflect the wide/compact/two-up-top options needed depending on the opposition.

——— Sturridge/Benteke — Ings/Origi
——————— Firmino/Lallana
Ibe/Markovic — Coutinho/Allen — Hendo/Milner
————————— Lucas/Can
Flanagan —— Sakho —— Gomez —— Clyne
Moreno ——— Lovren —— Skrtel —— Flanagan
——————— Mignolet/Ward

Subbed on: Grujic, Ojo, Allan and if JK could make one each at 55', 65' and 75', then that'd be tops.

Flanno is on there twice, because if he's needed on the right then Smith can go in LB.

Transfers: Any talented recruit is welcomed as there is basically one player in every position still aiming to prove themselves, but first I'd aim to get a speedier (in thought and foot) player than Lallana, who could play in Coutinho and Firmino's roles. Maybe that will be Allan, but could we enquire after that Raheem Sterling lad? I also want a world-class replacement for Sturridge, since Benteke is a Plan B rather than a direct swap.

Lallana is 28 by the end of the season, and Can should eventually oust Lucas (29) with Grujic looking like a back-up. Other recruitments can therefore replace the ageing Milner (30) and Skrtel (31). Everyone else is young with Lovren and Sturridge born in '89 and everyone else the 1990s. Migs is the one exception, being 28 in March, but GK's obviously don't have to be young, and if he shows signs of losing reaction speed then I know a few people who would welcome a replacement. Until then I don't mind footage like this at all:

 

[craigos]

Surely you take the basic stats like, goals, assists, tackles, crosses into the box, passing %, etc etc as a pretty good indication of a players worth. It's not like we're talking silly stats like pressure acts, time spent fixing hair (Moreno) and arm flaps (Migs).

 

[Cooldude]

This is one of the sports where stats translates least into actual truth or information of what's really going on. Loads of stats must be viewed with more context and caution

The important ones are goals and assist per appearance and the conceded column. We have too many players that don't have goals in them, Coutinho is a 1 in 6 goalscorer throughout his career, Lallana 1 in 6, Milner 1 in 10, Firmino 1 in 4, Benteke almost 1 in 2 (but when he plays everyone can't adapt to him), Henderson 1 in 10.

There's a dearth of goals in the side, couple with a keeper that doesn't fancy shots on target and we're where we are. Can't rely on Sturridge who is the only one of the required standard, have spent millions trying to replace him and keep making the same mistakes

If Leicester makes the top 4 then good on them but it's a real kick in the teeth for the club that's spent so much money the past 4 years and yet a club that doesn't have a tenth of our budget will have a season that finishes in the top 4, it'll be 6 seasons in 7 that Spurs finish ahead of us and they definitely don't have our financial muscles. We have to have a good hard look at our football operations, but by suggesting that apparently we're being "negative"

 

[Zidane98]

Hamann has come out and demanded the club tell the fans what is going in with Sturridge.

He's been in full training for weeks now. Klopp saying he has no idea when Sturridge returns indicates that Sturridge's issues are psychological rather than physical. Fans that pay big money for season tickets deserve to know why Sturridge isn't playing when he is our highest paid player.

 

[SApies]

I read today that West Ham are prepared to pay 18m for Sturridge.

What is he worth in everyones opinion?
Currently I'd probably take 20m
Fit and firing I wouldn't sell, but would have to be worth close to 40m if Benteke is worth 32 and Stirling 50m.

 

[Cooldude]

Hamann has cone out and demanded the club tell the fans what is going in with Sturridge.

He's been in full training for weeks now. Klopp saying he has no idea when Sturridge returns indicates that Sturridge's issues are psychological rather than physical. Fans that pay big money for season tickets deserve to know why Sturridge isn't playing when he is our highest paid player.

Jurg said he wants him to get around a full preseasons' length of training

So it'd mean he wants him train for 5-6 weeks get through that then think about matchday football

Which is sensible, it does the club nothing to bring him back in for him to break down again,

 

[RossFC]

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2016/0...l-u21s-as-they-progress-to-cup-quarter-final/

"Liverpool booked their place in the quarter-finals of U21 Premier League Cup as Daniel Trickett-Smith scored the only goal in a tight game at Prenton Park on Tuesday evening.

Liverpool U21s: Ryan Fulton (c), Corey Whelan, Sam Hart, Dan Cleary, Steven Caulker, Matt Virtue-Thick, Harry Wilson, Alex O’Hanlon, Brooks Lennon, Adam Phillips (Ovie Ejaria, 72), Dan Trickett-Smith (Toni Gomes, 84)"

Notable things about this game is Flanagan isn't there so he'll be on the bench tomorrow I reckon. Caulker played and Cleary is back from injury.

Also no Bogdan or Ward playing either. They opted to go for our 4th in line youth keeper Fulton.

 

[Zidane98]

Jurg said he wants him to get around a full preseasons' length of training

So it'd mean he wants him train for 5-6 weeks get through that then think about matchday football

Which is sensible, it does the club nothing to bring him back in for him to break down again,

I think that's a good idea but you have to ask why he isn't playing against Exeter. Perfect opportunity to ease him back in.

 

[Zidane98]

I read today that West Ham are prepared to pay 18m for Sturridge.

What is he worth in everyones opinion?
Currently I'd probably take 20m
Fit and firing I wouldn't sell, but would have to be worth close to 40m if Benteke is worth 32 and Stirling 50m.

West Ham can have Balotelli instead.

 

[Zidane98]

Where does everyone's priorities lie for the respective competitions we are still in for the rest of the season?

For me I think we should use the league to give the likes of Ibe experience and put the likes of Lallana in the shop window for summer. Only the FA Cup is a lower priority than the league for the rest of the season.

#1 priority has to be taking EL seriously now. Gets us CL football and would create a huge feel good factors. #2 priority is the League Cup followed by the league.

 

[Zidane98]

Also great news that Flanno is finally back. I think we'll give him until the end of next season to see if he can regain his pre injury form. 18 months out of the game is difficult to come back from. If he doesn't return to his previous potential he'll be off which is unfortunate but reality these days.

 

[Cooldude]

I think Jurg has just sworn Sturridge off any matchday football until he thinks he has enough miles in his legs

Winning any cup would mean this season a success

 

[RossFC]

Where does everyone's priorities lie for the respective competitions we are still in for the rest of the season?

For me I think we should use the league to give the likes of Ibe experience and put the likes of Lallana in the shop window for summer. Only the FA Cup is a lower priority than the league for the rest of the season.

#1 priority has to be taking EL seriously now. Gets us CL football and would create a huge feel good factors. #2 priority is the League Cup followed by the league.

1. Europa League (Do as well as we can, our only chance of Champions League IMO)
2. Capital One Cup (Only 2 games to go... win it)
3. EPL (Can't see us making Champions League but maybe Europa League is a possibility)
4. FA Cup (Play the kids, due to injury crisis)

 

[Zidane98]

I think Jurg has just sworn Sturridge off any matchday football until he thinks he has enough miles in his legs

Winning any cup would mean this season a success

Did read Sturridge hasn't had a pre season since 2013. Could have a lot to do with his current issues.

 

[Zidane98]

1. Europa League (Do as well as we can, our only chance of Champions League IMO)
2. Capital One Cup (Only 2 games to go... win it)
3. EPL (Can't see us making Champions League but maybe Europa League is a possibly)
4. FA Cup (Play the kids, due to injury crisis)

League position becomes irrelevant if we win a cup because that gets us Europe.

 

[BlueBen]

Doesn't anyone find it a bit odd that with all this talk of the entire squad needing to be made-over and Klopp being the one to clean out deadwood, that he himself has said they won't look to buy anyone? What are people's explanations for this seeming contradiction?

1.) What does Liverpool supporters on the Internet expressing their opinion that Liverpool's team/squad needs major upgrading have to do with what Klopp is or is not saying to the media about the squad? How is there any possible link, unless you are assuming that Klopp would actually read Liverpool fan forums and act on the supporters' desires?

2.) What do you expect him to say, that the team is rubbish and that we would like to purchase a whole new starting XI?

What a bizarre post.

 

[RossFC]

League position becomes irrelevant if we win a cup because that gets us Europe.

That's why I have the Capital One Cup higher than the EPL. I think we are more of a chance to win that cup than finish in a Europa League spot on the table.

 

[jod23]

Like Dylan said, in his current form, at his age, you are recouping $7m. For $7m you are getting more youth with potential which everyone here agrees is not what we need more of. Yes his is in a yuk vain of form. So is 90% of the squad. Confidence and momentum is a big factor. Rather than not being up to it, it is more than likely him playing well below his best. Therefore it makes more sense to persist with him as, at least, a squad player. At 29, theoretically it will be at his peak (discounting form) for 2 more years. We gain nothing by ditching him at his lowest value point.

This is not Football Manager guys.

Disagree. We could easily still get 15 million for him. He's English after all. Sell him in the summer. Thanks for the two pointless years, take the 10 million hit and move on with someone more talented who can actually score and create goals.

 

[Cooldude]

2.) What do you expect him to say, that the team is rubbish and that we would like to purchase a whole new starting XI?

Brendan Rodgers man management 101, "I got bad tools"

Oh unrelated point, the strangest thing I heard this week, Liverpool podcast, some fan talking about Lallana and his "artistry" and "vision", and say it's because Klopp making him run more that he is not contributing to goals