Toast Melbourne hire second female AFL coach

[Topkent]

Yeah. Fair enough.

Sorry. Can be a sensitive topic - as you've likely noticed.

I'm learning more and more though that unless you toe the pc line that everyone wants you to follow then you must be a sexist racist pig of some kind

Just because it's sensitive doesn't mean it can't be discussed

It is funny though that if and when I discuss this with women it tends to be a healthier discussion than with blokes

 

[Proper Gander]

I'm learning more and more though that unless you toe the pc line that everyone wants you to follow then you must be a sexist racist pig of some kind

Just because it's sensitive doesn't mean it can't be discussed

It is funny though that if and when I discuss this with women it tends to be a healthier discussion than with blokes

Yes but it sensitive for a reason - and implying that being pleased by the appointment of a woman in a traditionally male dominated area is a "pc line" could be offensive to a whole number of people and not just women.

The reason for the sensitivity is that rather than your suggestion that this appointment could have been tokenism rather than merit based (seriously???) the reality is that a very few years ago no woman would have been appointed in such a role even if significantly superior as a candidate to all others. It's not a pc line to appreciate this as the reality or to congratulate the club for moving towards an equitable approach to choosing its staff.

 

[Topkent]

To be fair though the development position itself probably didn't even exist at our club 10 years ago
There wasn't exactly many positions women could hold inside a footy club, hell it was near impossible for blokes to get a job with them if they hadn't played at the highest level

I'm probably not as good as some at putting my words across when I type them out but all I did was question whether it was on merit and then did say she had experience in WAFL ( I think )
If she did its a non issue answered with a simple yes ..

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

There's no doubt the club is doing this to strengthen it's position in regard to getting a women's club license.

I don't know if they interviewed other candidates but still, she's a person and it appears the club think highly of her talents (from a coaching and football point of view).

She'll learn from our group of coaches and no doubt will become a valuable member of the team.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I'm learning more and more though that unless you toe the pc line that everyone wants you to follow then you must be a sexist racist pig of some kind

Just because it's sensitive doesn't mean it can't be discussed

It is funny though that if and when I discuss this with women it tends to be a healthier discussion than with blokes

If you (not you) question any woman that gets appointed, but don't question any man that gets appointed then yes, you (not you) likely are a sexist pig.

It's not "toeing the PC line". It's accepting that these days people are expected to be treated with respect. If one does not do so, one should expect to be called out for it. Society has evolved.

 

[stretcharmstrong]

It

I'm learning more and more though that unless you toe the pc line that everyone wants you to follow then you must be a sexist racist pig of some kind

Just because it's sensitive doesn't mean it can't be discussed

It is funny though that if and when I discuss this with women it tends to be a healthier discussion than with blokes

It depends how you look at it.

The term PC isn't even really in my vocabulary. I find that in most situations where someone injects the term PC into the conversation, I'm just looking at it from the point of view of trying to be a decent human being, and the person banging on about something being too PC is just itching for an argument or trying to go against the grain for the sake of it.

Not saying that's you, just trying to point out that the people you accuse of "toeing the PC line" are probably not interested at all in toeing anyone's line, but are probably just trying to be decent people and to encourage others likewise.

 

[Topkent]

It

It depends how you look at it.

The term PC isn't even really in my vocabulary. I find that in most situations where someone injects the term PC into the conversation, I'm just looking at it from the point of view of trying to be a decent human being, and the person banging on about something being too PC is just itching for an argument or trying to go against the grain for the sake of it.

Not saying that's you, just trying to point out that the people you accuse of "toeing the PC line" are probably not interested at all in toeing anyone's line, but are probably just trying to be decent people and to encourage others likewise.

I know your not saying it, but so im a bad person because I ask the question? Ive never and nor would I say we shouldnt hire female coaches because theres no reason not too

I find sometimes people think that they must be a better person them self if they accuse others of something, I.E calling me sexist means you must be a better person

If you (not you) question any woman that gets appointed, but don't question any man that gets appointed then yes, you (not you) likely are a sexist pig.

It's not "toeing the PC line". It's accepting that these days people are expected to be treated with respect. If one does not do so, one should expect to be called out for it. Society has evolved.

Of course society has evolved, but If melbourne hired some random bloke out of WA with little experience people would be entitled to question it
I just find the whole 'congratulations' for getting a job as a woman just as patronizing..

Couldnt the title of the thread read 'melbourne hires new development coach' not 'melbourne hires female'

There's no doubt the club is doing this to strengthen it's position in regard to getting a women's club license.

I don't know if they interviewed other candidates but still, she's a person and it appears the club think highly of her talents (from a coaching and football point of view).

She'll learn from our group of coaches and no doubt will become a valuable member of the team.

Maybe they are maybe they arent, I have no idea thats why I asked the question and I think its a fair question to ask

 

[ManWithNoName]

Of course society has evolved, but If melbourne hired some random bloke out of WA with little experience people would be entitled to question it
I just find the whole 'congratulations' for getting a job as a woman just as patronizing..

Couldnt the title of the thread read 'melbourne hires new development coach' not 'melbourne hires female'

No because it IS noteworthy. She's only the second full time female coach in the AFL. That is worthy of recognition because if it gets hyped up then other women might see that they can do it too. For a long time it's highly likely lots of potential candidates never even tried because they assumed it would never happen. Now they can see it CAN happen. Hyping that up is not patronising at all. It's only a good thing.

 

[stretcharmstrong]

I know your not saying it, but so im a bad person because I ask the question? Ive never and nor would I say we shouldnt hire female coaches because theres no reason not too

I find sometimes people think that they must be a better person them self if they accuse others of something, I.E calling me sexist means you must be a better person


Of course society has evolved, but If melbourne hired some random bloke out of WA with little experience people would be entitled to question it
I just find the whole 'congratulations' for getting a job as a woman just as patronizing..

Couldnt the title of the thread read 'melbourne hires new development coach' not 'melbourne hires female'



Maybe they are maybe they arent, I have no idea thats why I asked the question and I think its a fair question to ask

Yes the original replies to your post were a little knee jerk but your post was inflammatory, perhaps deliberately so (?), and you do seem to arbitrarily be on this side of the argument every time something like this is debated in this forum.

Again, I have no intention of maligning you and don't think you're a bad person at all, for the record ... Just voicing my opinion as we all are entitled.

 

[Topkent]

Yes the original replies to your post were a little knee jerk but your post was inflammatory, perhaps deliberately so (?), and you do seem to arbitrarily be on this side of the argument every time something like this is debated in this forum.

Again, I have no intention of maligning you and don't think you're a bad person at all, for the record ... Just voicing my opinion as we all are entitled.

I wouldnt say im deliberately inflammatory but I was aware that people wouldnt help but take it that way, Also I wouldnt say im on one side of the argument or the other.. Ill just freely question something

Absolutely everyone should have an opinion, I also bet you I could piss of a shitload more people on here with my opinion on things but its a footy forum so alot it will never be discussed

 

[autocol]

so im a bad person because I ask the question?

A bad person? I certainly hope not, and having a particular view of a single issue (even if it should perhaps be adjusted) isn't indicative of your character as a whole.

The reason you asking the question is sexist is - you wouldn't have asked the same question if she was a bloke. That's it.

Couldnt the title of the thread read 'melbourne hires new development coach' not 'melbourne hires female'

In the future, when the number of women employed in the AFL goes anywhere even vaguely near approaching the number of women capable of holding those positions, that will be the title of the thread. The whole point of feminism is to get us to that day, where the gender of the person discussed is not considered relevant.

I arced up at you because in every thread that has anything to do with women, you take a very disparaging tone. You're now copping it from all sides and are feeling somewhat unfairly victimised, so let me ask you... how would you feel about being victimised every single day? Not because of something you said, not because of something you did, but simply because of who you are.

That's what it's like being a woman, or black, or gay, in Australia. Every. Single. Day.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

What a surprise to see you weigh in with this comment.

I notice that every time a man gets a coaching job you're not popping in to say "is he qualified for the job or did we just give it to him because he's a man?"

Seriously, you should just give up on posting on any thread that has anything to do with women.

At least she's not ethnic, nickgrant69 would have had a field day.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

In the future, when the number of women employed in the AFL goes anywhere even vaguely near approaching the number of women capable of holding those positions, that will be the title of the thread. The whole point of feminism is to get us to that day, where the gender of the person discussed is not considered relevant.

I arced up at you because in every thread that has anything to do with women, you take a very disparaging tone. You're now copping it from all sides and are feeling somewhat unfairly victimised, so let me ask you... how would you feel about being victimised every single day? Not because of something you said, not because of something you did, but simply because of who you are.

That's what it's like being a woman, or black, or gay, in Australia. Every. Single. Day.

I don't think you realize how many women work in the AFL.

In the football department, sure, there aren't many - but there's a pretty clear reason for that, there aren't as many women that are passionate about football to that extent - in commercial and business aspects there are an equal amount of women in my experience.

As for that last statement, you may as well add in ugly and fat people (men and women) - discrimination isn't just a male problem and I take offence to the assumption that women I know are being victimized every day, presumably by people I know.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I take offence to the assumption that women I know are being victimized every day, presumably by people I know.

Well guess what son...

 

[autocol]

I take offence to the assumption that women I know are being victimized every day, presumably by people I know.

I'm glad you take offence. You should. It probably makes you a feminist.

 

[autocol]

I don't think you realize how many women work in the AFL.

In the football department, sure, there aren't many - but there's a pretty clear reason for that, there aren't as many women that are passionate about football to that extent

Do you have any science to back up this claim, or is it something you've just observed? Because I've observed (through my mixed touch footy team, and my GF's VFL team, and from watching the Dees and Bulldogs AFL teams, and from my seat on level 3 at the MCG every week) that there are thousands upon thousands of women that are passionate about football to that extent, who are completely unrepresented at AFL level. That says nothing about women, and everything about the total lack of opportunity afforded to them by the clubs.

 

[Cannon82]

In the football department, sure, there aren't many - but there's a pretty clear reason for that, there aren't as many women that are passionate about football to that extent - in commercial and business aspects there are an equal amount of women in my experience.

I would've thought a significant portion of the people in the football department have previously played football at a professional level. More about perspective and experience than passion, or keeping former players with functional brains at the club.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Do you have any science to back up this claim, or is it something you've just observed? Because I've observed (through my mixed touch footy team, and my GF's VFL team, and from watching the Dees and Bulldogs AFL teams, and from my seat on level 3 at the MCG every week) that there are thousands upon thousands of women that are passionate about football to that extent, who are completely unrepresented at AFL level. That says nothing about women, and everything about the total lack of opportunity afforded to them by the clubs.

I don't believe they are passionate to that extent - as Cannon says below, the people who work in football departments live and breathe football 24/7, I probably didn't word that correctly but I don't mean to say that women don't love footy... just not to the extent of a professional footballer or professional coach who invariably get those football based roles.

That said, the opportunity we're a part of for women could see the start of that.

I would've thought a significant portion of the people in the football department have previously played football at a professional level. More about perspective and experience than passion, or keeping former players with functional brains at the club.

I agree.

 

[autocol]

I don't mean to say that women don't love footy... just not to the extent of a professional footballer or professional coach who invariably get those football based roles.

Err, yeah, they don't get to live and breath footy to the extent of a professional player or a professional coach because, at the time of writing:

• Zero females are afforded the opportunity to play professionally because there is no professional league, and;
• Two females are afforded the opportunity to coach professionally (at AFL level).

So, are you saying that women don't deserve these coaching positions because they've never played professionally, while simultaneously grasping to the idea that this somehow isn't sexism? Daisy Pearce is a phenomenal player (and person, I know her through friends) with a keen football brain who like Chris Judd would have been on a million bucks a year had she been born with a dick. She never had the opportunity to play professionally (yet). Are you saying that she should therefore be overlooked for a coaching gig in 2025 in favour of someone like James Magner, for example?

Because she didn't "live and breath" footy to "the extent" that he did?

Because that sounds like rigging a game, big time, and then using the outcome of the game as evidence that you were right all along.

 

[Cannon82]

• Zero females are afforded the opportunity to play professionally because there is no professional league, and;
• Two females are afforded the opportunity to coach professionally (at AFL level).

The AFL competition didn't spring up overnight and turn professional the next day. The ladies are going to have to do their time too, and they're already getting a good leg up piggybacking off the existing competition and crowds. It might be bad luck for Daisy she was "born without a dick", but experience at the elite level is going to be considered a positive for any potential player or football department recruit. It's not sexism, it's pragmatic to favour someone who is proven at a higher level.

 

[Tulip]

The AFL competition didn't spring up overnight and turn professional the next day. The ladies are going to have to do their time too, and they're already getting a good leg up piggybacking off the existing competition and crowds. It might be bad luck for Daisy she was "born without a dick", but experience at the elite level is going to be considered a positive for any potential player or football department recruit. It's not sexism, it's pragmatic to favour someone who is proven at a higher level.

Every single male player currently active in the competition is enjoying just as much of a 'piggyback' as the females hypothetically are. There are very few people still left in footy from the non-pro era.

 

[Cannon82]

Every single male player currently active in the competition is enjoying just as much of a 'piggyback' as the females hypothetically are. There are very few people still left in footy from the non-pro era.

Not what I'm talking about, and I really don't see the point of the comment. Would you like to abolish the league every year and start from scratch?

If the women's games were stand alone instead of before the AFL games, how many people would be at the matches? A lot less.

 

[Tulip]

Not what I'm talking about, and I really don't see the point of the comment. Would you like to abolish the league every year and start from scratch?

If the women's games were stand alone instead of before the AFL games, how many people would be at the matches? A lot less.

What do crowd numbers have to do with quality of the individual? If anything, the men get more of a leg up having been born into an established system, whilst the women have to try and convince people to stick around.

The women are and will do their time, but that shouldn't put them on the back foot when it comes to FD jobs.

 

[Cannon82]

What do crowd numbers have to do with quality of the individual? If anything, the men get more of a leg up having been born into an established system, whilst the women have to try and convince people to stick around.

The women are and will do their time, but that shouldn't put them on the back foot when it comes to FD jobs.

"Quality of the individual" is subjective and pretty pointless to discuss.

The men's game is established and there are vastly more players competing to make it to the top, so guys have to work magnitudes of order harder to make it in a professional league. If you have a problem with that, what are you suggesting should happen?

Crowd numbers indicate a following for a league, which will draw sponsorship and revenue, which will allow a league to become professional, which will increase the standard with more full-time athletes, which means players and coaches are operating and challenged at a higher level, yada yada yada. What's one thing companies look for when hiring someone for something other than an entry level role or apprenticeship?

 

[Tulip]

yada yada yada. What's one thing companies look for when hiring someone for something other than an entry level role or apprenticeship?

That's why AFL clubs need to be dynamic, and Melbourne is one of those. Cowan has coached our female side every season, and has plenty of experience in woman's footy. Her CV is as good as it possibly could be considering the fact that she's a woman, and the club is giving her a go accordingly. I'm not quite as offended as autocol or MWNN, I just don't see why gender has to be brought into it when there's literally nothing else she could have done.