No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[Matt loves Essendon]

Understand this and understand it well: I don't buy the notion that I have to believe the players are guilty just because some corrupt dog in a courtroom said it.

Spot on. 3 people think they are guilty on a very low standard of proof. Why do I just have to buy it? Why can't I have my own view on it, just like the guilty call is their view?

 

[DERO]

If you can find a guilty verdict from no evidence, confessions, positive tests or whistleblowers, then I'm not the idiot.

Understand this and understand it well: I don't buy the notion that I have to believe the players are guilty just because some corrupt dog in a courtroom said it.

I especially don't give an atom-sized shit what anyone infers about my intelligence from my support of EFC and the 34. We are Essendon, **** the rest. Why should any of us dilute our passion for the club, or shy away from saying what needs to be said, just to be good little obedient puppies for the media?

Scythe. No one could ever question your passion pal and I certainly respect it, make no mistake.

It is also extremely unfortunate that the players put their faith in others that they should have been able to trust and have copped a ban as a result as manifestly unfair as it is.

I also get that it is easier for some to blame others, prejudices and perceived corruption rather than accepting the truth. Unfortunately those on the outside think we look silly because of this and I am inclined to agree. Taking a "not guilty" banner to a march in support of our banned players is a stupid idea as they are not innocent.

Xavier Campbel spoke quite eloquently earlier this week on SEN when drilled by David Colbert and made comments to this effect: The march is not about refusing to accept what the club has done, it is about the future and showing support for our players. Taking a "not guilty" banner to this march gives your Colberts, Wilsons, Sam Lane QC's etc the ammunition they need to continually undermine the club's best efforts to get back on track. I suggest you replace your "Not guilty" banner with a "TIPPA" banner.

 

[yaco55]

That's how I understood it as well, which I am OK with. Hopefully his sons team doesn't play too many games at the TVSC.

I'll give you an example of what a crock the rule is re ' players attending games ' - Go back over 20 years when we played at Windy Hill - Players would be unable to attend home games under the WADA guidelines - Actually how would this apply to Geelong in 2016 - Seeing they train where they play.

 

[yaco55]

In all seriousness, the fence is the boundary of the TVS and so I doubt he can be touched as long as he's outside it.

Don't underestimate the vindictiveness of McDevitt - After Dank appeared at a Sportsmen's night at Wallis' EDFL club suddenly ASADA testers turned up at a game.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Don't underestimate the vindictiveness of McDevitt - After Dank appeared at a Sportsmen's night at Wallis' EDFL club suddenly ASADA testers turned up at a game.

If he's outside the fence he's not contravening the rules of his ban and they can't do anything.

 

[yodellinhank]

The comment by DonsRule is probably on the money. You don't want "covertly spying on kids footy matches" on your police record.

 

[DERO]

Probably better you don't misrepresent the StandbyHird campaign as well. It originated in response to the media calling for Hird's head, months before the ASADA investigation had concluded (or had even really begun actually). Hird, the players and the club were being smashed from pillar to post on the basis of rumour and innuendo. I can guarantee that many who put up money, including the business who offered to finance the whole campaign would not do so again in light of what has transpired since.

 

[boncer34]

I can guarantee that many who put up money, including the business who offered to finance the whole campaign would not do so again in light of what has transpired since.

How can you guarantee? Spoken to them? Asked their opinions?

 

[Bombermania]

How can you guarantee? Spoken to them? Asked their opinions?

I suspect quietly many have lost some respect over what has happened, I know many here and at the Blitz are still defending Hird but I suspect most of it is purely down to his time as a player.

This is why Hirdy and the club taking a break from one another for a short period of time whilst the club focusing on rebuilding might be in the best interest of everyone in the medium to longer term.

 

[boncer34]

I suspect quietly many have lost some respect over what has happened, I know many here and at the Blitz are still defending Hird but I suspect most of it is purely down to his time as a player.

This is why Hirdy and the club taking a break from one another for a short period of time whilst the club focusing on rebuilding might be in the best interest of everyone in the medium to longer term.

Suspecting is very different from guaranteeing

 

[Bombermania]

Suspecting is very different from guaranteeing

Yes it is, which is why I used the term suspecting, one of the great things about our club is its membership diversity.

 

[DERO]

I own the business that offered to put the money up, the Age reporter who interviewed Foggy (a ripping bloke by the way) is a friend of mine and the person instrumental in getting everything organised, printed and delivered is a business associate. So yeah, I can guarantee it.

 

[boncer34]

I own the business that offered to put the money up, the Age reporter who interviewed Foggy (a ripping bloke by the way) is a friend of mine and the person instrumental in getting everything organised, printed and delivered is a business associate. So yeah, I can guarantee it.

Gone from many to a couple.

Cool.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

So yeah. I went from helping orchestrate (in a very minor way as Simeon and Nick did a power of work but I did make the original offer to finance it) stand by Hird to being extremely happy to see the back of James Hird once I was fully informed.

It is a she, Madeline Heffernan and normally she writes for the business section.

Oh my bad.

 

[DERO]

Thought I had deleted that. Ha ha.

You guys can think what you like and that is fair enough but I can honestly say my opinion on J Hird changed abruptly when I became better informed. FWIW, I have heard everyone from past premiership captains to fathers of current players that initially supported SBH (one actually signed a metal version at Windy Hill) who are happy that he is no longer there. Make of that what you will.

 

[sameolds33]

Those sorts of banners are exactly the reason we are a laughing stock and will be used (successfully) to highlight how far some Essendon supporters have their heads up their arses. It is embarrassing. Accept we did something wrong and move on. It is possible to still support the players while you are doing that.

The players still say they are innocent. They were there. Fine if you don't think they are but also fine for other supporters to believe them.

 

[Bombermania]

Thought I had deleted that. Ha ha.

You guys can think what you like and that is fair enough but I can honestly say my opinion on J Hird changed abruptly when I became better informed. FWIW, I have heard everyone from past premiership captains to fathers of current players that initially supported SBH (one actually signed a metal version at Windy Hill) who are happy that he is no longer there. Make of that what you will.

I think I am in the same boat as you, I love Hirdy as a player but there are aspects of the evidence which just doesn't sit right, I ask myself the question, if this saga was at another club would I be defending it sticking the boot in and the answer is sticking the boot in just based on the evidence put forward by the club and people around the club.

 

[DERO]

I think I am in the same boat as you, I love Hirdy as a player but there are aspects of the evidence which just doesn't sit right, I ask myself the question, if this saga was at another club would I be defending it sticking the boot in and the answer is sticking the boot in just based on the evidence put forward by the club and people around the club.

Hird was an amazing player... My only extremely slight criticism is that he was always was just a little bit unaccountable.

 

[Bombermania]

The players still say they are innocent. They were there. Fine if you don't think they are but also fine for other supporters to believe them.

I think there are two difference issues, the players clearly didn't set out to chest but there was a program put in place that had Hird's full support, we only need to see some of the emails put forward. Hirdy appeared to be close to Dank the Wank and still seems to hold a positive view of him.

I judge people by their actions more than their words and some of Hirdy's actions seem questionable.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

The players set out to cheat because CAS said so according to the general footy public.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

But they are guilty. Officially. They are. There's no two ways about that.

There is a difference between being guilty and being adjudged guilty. There's no two ways about that.

 

[Bombermania]

There is a difference between being guilty and being adjudged guilty. There's no two ways about that.

WADA have an ironclad rule that the sports person controls what goes into their body and whilst I understand that and most here would however it is in effect taking a sledgehammer to a walnut yet this same body has been found wanting in regards to athletics and doping. Just pathetic.

Also where was the outrage last summer when Serena Williams called for a coffee mid-way though a match, nothing just crickets, now I am not saying she should have been punished but the twelve month suspension is rubbish.

 

[60sbomber]

I suspect quietly many have lost some respect over what has happened, I know many here and at the Blitz are still defending Hird but I suspect most of it is purely down to his time as a player.

This is why Hirdy and the club taking a break from one another for a short period of time whilst the club focusing on rebuilding might be in the best interest of everyone in the medium to longer term.

That is revisionist nonsense. By revisionist, I mean that you are re-evaluating Hird in the light of the guilty verdict handed down to the players.
I said a very long time ago that the final outcome would be determined by legalisms (definition of burden of proof, willingness of CAS to make assumptions etc etc), and that how Hird acted, and how the players acted, should not be judged by what is the final outcome.
And it is true.
Hird did no wrong. The players did no wrong. The fact that CAS found the players guilty says a lot about the WADA code, and what WADA and CAS combined found necessary and desirable to guard against future potential drug use by a sporting team. It does NOT, in my estimation, give me cause to revise what I believe the players, and Hird, are, and that is innocent victims of a dubious, and possibly deceitful program run by Robinson and Dank.

My respect for Hird remains. I actually respect him more than I did as a player as a result of how he has conducted himself over the last 3 years.
Hird and the club are taking a break from each other because of the answer to the question that Hird asked prior to his relinquishing the coaching position, which was "Do you think that the club will ever be treated fairly while I am coach?". The answer was "No".
The general public will try to revise this to Hird leaving in disgrace. He didn't. He left because the public, the press, and the AFL made it impossible for the club to get "clean air" as long as he was still there, such was their need to blame him.

So don't include me when you say many have lost respect for him over what has happened. I think I have a very good understanding of what has happened.

 

[60sbomber]

. Unfortunately those on the outside think we look silly because of this and I am inclined to agree. Taking a "not guilty" banner to a march in support of our banned players is a stupid idea as they are not innocent.

I don't care who thinks we look silly.
I am long past appeasing opposition clubs, opposition supporters, and media critics.
The players have been found guilty, but they are not guilty.
It is hard for those who have a respect for the legal process to understand this attitude.
What you should try to remember is that the legal processes you respect and abide by are not what was used to bring down the guilty verdict on these players.
The process used was the WADA code, and the outcome of its process is very much short of justice, and what a court would find.
It is the misfortune of the players that they were never able to have access to a proper court and a proper process of hearing the case, using the legal principles you and others respect. Had they been able to, they most certainly would not have been found guilty.
So don't transfer the respect you have for the legal system and its findings to what has happened to the players here.
The players ARE innocent, no matter what WADA and CAS have found.

I think a "not guilty" banner at the march is the very essence of what is required.
I am marching, not only because I support the club and its endeavours to move on from what has been imposed on it, but because I believe the players have been victimised, wrongly, very wrongly, and I want them to know that I believe this, and that there are thousands of Essendon supporters out there who believe their suspensions are wrong, not just that we sympathise, and will accept them back after they have done their time.

 

[scyth]

I don't care who thinks we look silly.
I am long past appeasing opposition clubs, opposition supporters, and media critics.
The players have been found guilty, but they are not guilty.
It is hard for those who have a respect for the legal process to understand this attitude.
What you should try to remember is that the legal processes you respect and abide by are not what was used to bring down the guilty verdict on these players.
The process used was the WADA code, and the outcome of its process is very much short of justice, and what a court would find.
It is the misfortune of the players that they were never able to have access to a proper court and a proper process of hearing the case, using the legal principles you and others respect. Had they been able to, they most certainly would not have been found guilty.
So don't transfer the respect you have for the legal system and its findings to what has happened to the players here.
The players ARE innocent, no matter what WADA and CAS have found.

I think a "not guilty" banner at the march is the very essence of what is required.
I am marching, not only because I support the club and its endeavours to move on from what has been imposed on it, but because I believe the players have been victimised, wrongly, very wrongly, and I want them to know that I believe this, and that there are thousands of Essendon supporters out there who believe their suspensions are wrong, not just that we sympathise, and will accept them back after they have done their time.

Agreed. Dero, I can respect your stance, but I can't get on board with it. I feel strongly enough about the players' innocence that I wouldn't be doing due diligence by failing to take an opportunity to stand up and say something, regardless of what anyone else thinks. In the words of a great man: here I stand, I can do no other.

And in the interests of refraining from derailing this thread any further, I'll leave it at that.

EDIT: Looks like this whole conversation got moved to where it should be. Doss, would you do the honours.