Strategy Trade and List Management thread 2.(...the waiting for the hammer to fall edition)

[immortalmike]

I thought of that when I pressed submit but thought the recovery period would have been done by the start of pre season?

Normally back to training after Xmas.

 

[Valixir]

Reiwolt will get it done
3rd rounder if you want to keep Jack .

Yeah, we probably need to hang on to Jack

Watched a lot of the Bulldogs games at VFL this year and couldn't help but be seriously impressed with HC. He's tiny but you can't fault his determination and craftiness. Hopefully he finds a good home that can give him a run at AFL.

 

[immortalmike]

Yeah, we probably need to hang on to Jack

Watched a lot of the Bulldogs games at VFL this year and couldn't help but be seriously impressed with HC. He's tiny but you can't fault his determination and craftiness. Hopefully he finds a good home that can give him a run at AFL.

He's staying put for now. Look to get him for a song next year though.

 

[Valixir]

I'd want to upgrade our second to the Vickery compo but I expect we'd settle for your third. Apparently he wants to stay though. Have you heard anything or just interested?

Just rumours TBH, but I really like his hussle. I hope we make an offer regardless. Just a pipedream but if we got 42 from GC as part of the Prestia deal or 36 or 40 from Geelong as part of Deledio deal I would think he would be a good fit for us.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Just rumours TBH, but I really like his hussle. I hope we make an offer regardless. Just a pipedream but if we got 42 from GC as part of the Prestia deal or 36 or 40 from Geelong as part of Deledio deal I would think he would be a good fit for us.

Honestly your 44 would be a good chance of getting it done if he nominated you. I'd hope we'd press for more though. If we accepted nothing else would you go for the second round pick upgrade I suggested?

 

[Royal Doulton]

Hello Premiers,

Sorry to intrude, just curious as to what you think Honeychurch would be worth?

*Apologies if it's been asked, did check with the search function but couldn't find a clear cut answer.

On the Vickory scale.. a top 5 pick...
Otherwise would take something in 30's

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mutt]

Yeah who needs a top 10 league player....

There is no indication that he is even close to available.

There were some whispers around immediately following round 23 that Gray might be prepared to move given the massive cap squeeze going on at Port. Gray is a Victorian and some recruiters felt from things his agent had said that there was a slim chance that Gray might be open to an offer from a Victorian club.

 

[jdz101]

There were some whispers around immediately following round 23 that Gray might be prepared to move given the massive cap squeeze going on at Port. Gray is a Victorian and some recruiters felt from things his agent had said that there was a slim chance that Gray might be open to an offer from a Victorian club.

Surely you move every single other player in the team for unders instead of Gray.

Dude is an absolute superstar...If he were playing for a Melbourne club people would go bananas about how good he is.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

Uummm. Michael Talia for whatever we do with pick 73? That's gotta be a win, right?

Wow. Talia for Cloke. Hadn't thought of.it that way!

Win

 

[Mutt]

Surely you move every single other player in the team for unders instead of Gray.

Dude is an absolute superstar...If he were playing for a Melbourne club people would go bananas about how good he is.

Gray is a stud. From what I understand the potential move of Gray was not initiated by Port. He's not one of the players they want to move on. If you were Gray though, would you want to stay at Port? Dude will be 29 at the start of next season and so has one good contract left - blow that opportunity by staying at Port? Perhaps he wants to be a one club player...I can see why he might consider moving. Given that the talk has died down over the past couple of weeks it looks like he won't be going anywhere soon.

 

[Valixir]

On the Vickory scale.. a top 5 pick...
Otherwise would take something in 30's

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

Pick 26? Every day of the week on potential.

You might have to part with a third round from someone as well though. 61 is probably a little too far back.

 

[VitalDread]

Kieran Collins already back at the gym
Will be set for pre season

 

[webbo]

Kieran Collins already back at the gym
Will be set for pre season

Doesn't need any gym work would think, but know you're referring to his injury.

I know you watch a lot of VFL stuff, what do you rate his potential at? Think he'll make it? Has been some concern from some on here about positioning/speed etc, but he's got stacks of time to develop obvious. He's a big boy and could help us in the future by freeing up Adams to be more of an intercept player and use his strong marking.

 

[VitalDread]

Doesn't need any gym work would think, but know you're referring to his injury.

I know you watch a lot of VFL stuff, what do you rate his potential at? Think he'll make it? Has been some concern from some on here about positioning/speed etc, but he's got stacks of time to develop obvious. He's a big boy and could help us in the future by freeing up Adams to be more of an intercept player and use his strong marking.

He will make it, will take time to develop his body for afl (speed etc) but has the ability to play like Lake

 

[Ozil]

Pick 26? Every day of the week on potential.

You might have to part with a third round from someone as well though. 61 is probably a little too far back.

Potential? Who is he, Jarrad Waite?

 

[Valixir]

Potential? Who is he, Jarrad Waite?

Bit tough on one of your own don't you think?

I'll say it again. If we got 26 for Vickery, I'd give 26 for Honeychurch (if pushed) on potential from what I've seen. We'd need a 3rd round to seal the deal, but that's just IMO.

 

[Zgope1]

Rockliff to collingwood is gaining legs.

they better cough up some bloody value i'm getting sick of this crap with players just picking their club and therefore the selected club gets to pay unders. It's garbage.

I reckon they should bring free agency down to four years and the whole paradigm needs to shift to the yankee model where clubs can trade non free agents without consent. this is becoming ridiculous

 

[jdz101]

There's been plenty for the norfs to complain about recently....dare I ask the footy gods for the AFL to give Richmond better compensation for Vickery than for Wells and perhaps a sprinkling of Good Friday dogs football to really top off a fantastic lolnorf 2016.

 

[Ozil]

Bit tough on one of your own don't you think?

I'll say it again. If we got 26 for Vickery, I'd give 26 for Honeychurch (if pushed) on potential from what I've seen. We'd need a 3rd round to seal the deal, but that's just IMO.

While I rate Honeychurch, I'd be wary of parting with decent picks for recycled 'potential', particularly in a deep draft. Too often they just never kick on.

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

Nah, he basically said we've been excellent drafters but shitty traders, comparing our draft strategy as similar to Norf's (but obviously more successful). Urgh.

As another poster said, no one takes him seriously but still frustrating that his nonsense gets airtime.

I heard it but I've got a different take on it. We just don't trade as much as the sides that have dominated for so long do - Hawks, cats, swans etc

 

[threenewpadlocks]

He will make it, will take time to develop his body for afl (speed etc) but has the ability to play like Lake

Collins is a jet, but it will take him time (even beyond next year being the second year him being on our list) for him to develop his style of play to our team style of play.

Basically his style of play is to beat his man in a one-on-one battle, if that bloke is a full forward. He beats them when the ball hits the air, and he can stop them on the lead using crafty body positioning even if he's not the quickest. Basically he's a old-fashioned FB.

Sadly our team is the complete opposite where we play a hyper-modern style involving team defence, zoning off, and understanding that all 6 defenders have to be able to run and spread offensively when we win the ball and understand structures relating to teammates. It's basically the antithesis of the lockdown style that Collins plays. Thankfully in our clubs wise assessment through interviews when we drafted him, we determined him to be a highly malleable individual in understanding structures and positioning, otherwise we wouldn't have drafted him.

Remember for Dandenong if was Collins taking the best forwards and Weitering reading the play and zoning off players. But I get the feeling given an investment into Collins long-term, once he really hits his strides in understanding that structural, zoning, positioning element to his game (and it could take 4-5 years of play at both VFL and AFL level) he really could become a premier key defender in the competition.

Weitering was drafted number 1 because he had an innate ability to read the play and know when to zone off/when to stick to his man like almost no other 17/18 year old in the modern professional draft era. But there's almost no comparison for a player of his type, so we don't have any reference point in the past to see if a player like him has even more scope for that aspect of his game to improve.

What we do know, however, that drafting 17 year olds on the premise of how they defend through rolling zones or how they understand team defences is very difficult, very very difficult. 1) Because junior footy actually bans rolling zones and some elements of team defence - ie a maximum of 12 players zoning up in kick-ins (so your basic 3-4-5 zone that forwards engage in, but your defensive unit of 6 is actually legally forced to man up and not allowed to engage in a full 18-man press that Hawthorn made the AFL norm in 2008 and everybody has followed since), and players are informally ordered not to crowd the ball and engage in heavy presses at stoppages etc. And 2) because the element of understanding structures, presses, zoning in defence takes a hell of a long time, and it's unpredictable to determine who has an aptitutde for learning that in their 20's when they're 17/18. Consider Roberts, Hamling, Biggs, Boyd, Morris, Wood, Johannisen - all are famously low draft picks and people have mentioned it on this board, but it's also worth looking at draft analysis - basically the reason that they went so low in the draft is because whilst they all had the ability to engage strongly in team defence, you can't really tell that at U/18 level.

I understand why they do it at U/18 level - you want to the success of a team to be the sum of its parts, the parts being the raw talent of the players, in order to help develop individuals and let draft watchers better assess the offensive quality of individuals. But basically that gives you no opportunity to assess how these juniors have an understanding of playing in these rolling zones etc. In fact, the very argument that players like Boyd were able to be re-tooled as a defender because in a team defence style he's not competing against anyone - because he's not competing against those who have been taught a team defence style as juniors, because nobody has been. But it means that when Bevo wants to engage in a team defence style, he's teaching the players from scratch.

So this brings us back to Collins. Basically because he's never had to play a heavy team defence/rolling zone/pressing/zoning off style of play, it's going to take us time to develop that in his game. But given his strong one-on-one abilities, it's a good starting point. Given that he's ten times the physical one-on-one defender that Fletcher Roberts is, he only has to understand our structures about 80% of the quality of Roberts to take his place in the team. And given Bevo's success etc in re-tooling players like Boyd as defenders, he's going to do a good job of it.

For example, and I know it's not much to go on, but take his 1 game at AFL level this year. Certianly looked up to it from a purely defensive role and did as much as you can hope from an 18 year old key defender from that perspective, but the offensive side and the pace of the game seemed too much for him. I remember seeing him stick to his man like glue too often and not zone off to provide the extra number, and he simply didn't really know where to run and spread from an offensive point of view (only 4 disposals from 73% game time - even Roberts who hardly touches the ball tends to get double that, and would play a similar role to Collins in the team, gets double that).

Wow, that ended up being longer than I thought. And will likely be buried given the pace of this thread!

 

[Mattdougie]

I will be pretty upset if we do nothing over this period

Have to continue getting stronger not sit on our hands

And relying on Crameri and Murphy who neither have played for a year to improve is won't be enough.

We have made some average resigning this year already IMO so need to do some work on the next week.

 

[jacob17]

The poor guys who have to write this stuff, needed to come up with so many different ways to say "tumbleweeds". How many more days does this drag on for?



Here is a summary of what your club did (and didn't) on the first day of player trading for 2016.

ADELAIDE: Started the process to bring Bryce Gibbs to the club from Carlton.

BRISBANE LIONS: Lots of discussions about no.2 pick, Tom Rockliff and Pearce Hanley. Rockliff will probably stay, Hanley will likely leave.

CARLTON: Blindsided a bit by the Gibbs news but he is under contract, so the Blues hold the aces. Zach Tuohy declared he wants to move to Geelong.

COLLINGWOOD: Likely to get Daniel Wells. Kicking the tyres around Rockliff.

ESSENDON: Not much happening yet.

FREMANTLE: Inching closer to securing Cam McCarthy from GWS. In talks for Hawthorn's Bradley Hill. No major update on Hayden Ballantyne, Michael Barlow and Chris Mayne, although they want Ballantyne to stay.

GEELONG: Flagged interest in Brett Deledio. Reportedly after Carlton's Zach Tuohy. Daniel Menzel signed for another season.

GOLD COAST: After a topline Hawk in exchange for Jaeger O'Meara.

GWS: Inching closer to releasing Cam McCarthy to Fremnantle. But imagine the deal had they done it 12 months prior.

HAWTHORN: Secured Ty Vickery, learned officially that Tom Mitchell wants to come and kicked off the Jaeger O'Meara talks.

MELBOURNE: Not much happened.

NORTH MELBOURNE: Lost Daniel Wells, almost certainly to Collingwood and missed out on Carlton's Zac Tuohy who wants to join Geelong.

PORT ADELAIDE: Still open to offers for Hamish Hartlett.

RICHMOND: Chose not to keep Hawthorn-bound Ty Vickery. Will Brett Deledio follow him out the door?

ST KILDA: No wheeling and dealing on day one.

SYDNEY SWANS: Midfielder Tom Mitchell wants a trade to Hawthorn.

WESTERN BULLDOGS: Not much happening at the moment.

WEST COAST: No concrete developments just yet.

LOL PORT

 

[Deadly Darcy]

While I rate Honeychurch, I'd be wary of parting with decent picks for recycled 'potential', particularly in a deep draft. Too often they just never kick on.

Yeah. But you and I aren't the team that recruited Conca, Lennon and Tambling and recruited for Yarren.

Com'on Richmond....

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

gah, i still just can't stomach this Cloke stuff. Would rather see a young player take his spot. I've tried to watch highlights and it's all just him taking marks with that glove he used to cheat with. Hope i'm wrong but really don't want his guy

Trouble is a young player ready to take his spot we don't have. Getting Cloke doesn't stop us getting another key forward in the draft. In fact that's what I hope we do. Gives Cloke a few guys to mentor.

Still think Cloke will surprise some people next year, given he'all be playing for a coach that shows him a bit more love. He's only 29, hopefully drops 2-3kgs in the off season.

Not gonna lie though, there'll be frustrating moments where he'all miss a few gimmes but there'll be other moments where he might slot a few from the boundary about 50m out.

Swings and roundabouts.