Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....

[Malifice]

I believe you mentioned that globalisation, Corporisation etc was the right's policies initially. So are they a good thing or aren't they?

It doesnt have to be binary. They can be both good and bad things. I support capitalism for the same reason Adam Smith did (the invisible hand providing the greatest good for all). But of course, there are bad things as well. Moving jobs overseas (while it helps those overseas workers) hurts those in the wealthy country who lose their jobs. As those markets move away from manual labor and manufacturing to a different economy, those working class people who no longer have low skilled jobs, need to be upskilled to continue to particpate.

Im not persuaded that imposing tarriffs and forcing employers to keep jobs in wealthy nations (or paying them to stay) is the way to go. Look at Holden in Australia for example; just how long is the government expected to prop up those manufacturing jobs for?

You're just delaying the inevitable.

Of course the benefits of globalisation are lost on many. What use is a cheap iPhone, a visa waiver to India, the ability to set up your buisiness in China, or a half price car to an out of work blue collar laborer?

Right wing governments tend to lean towards war. Historically, yes, but wasn't that the opposite this US election? Trump was anti-war and Hilary was pro-war.

Absolutely not. Trump wants to pump a ton of cash into the armed forces. He was on record during the election saying that he would invade the middle east and take down IS (at one point saying both nukes and the killing of the terrorists families were both on the table). He has openly put forward a foreign policy in East Asia that would potentially lead to a nuclear arms race, and kick off a major war in the area.

Howard improved housing affordability for Australians. A very real issue now that the grant is gone. Not sure how that can be reflected on as a bad thing.

No he didnt. All he increased was personal debt. At a greatly increased rate than the 5 years prior. There was no decrease in house values due to the FHOG; quite the opposite in fact. The grant simply encouraged people to buy a house. It increased demand. Once you increase demand (in a limited supply market), price rises (and this rise gobbled up the small FHOG pretty quickly). In addition for those that did so they got slugged with a lifetime debt (the mortgage) with a repayemnt value far in excess of the loan amount.

If the government wanted to do something about housing it could simply give out zero intrest home loans.

Im not saying its unwise to buy a house. Quite the opposite. Not all debt is bad debt.

In Perth we saw a massive boom in housing prices. There was a ton of demand due to the mining boom, and prices were inflated (doubling every year for several years, at an almost exponential rate). People were borrowing against the equity in those properties and bying investment properties (or sinking the cash into shares like Paladin, Newcrest, Rio and other mining companies) and making a killing. The 'cashed up bogan' with a 4 bedroom McMansion in the burbs, a boat and an investment property was a thing.

Then the GFC hit, and many of them lost their homes. Foreclosure rates in the Supreme Court went through the roof.

The FHOG helped, but it was an illusory help more than anything tangible. Its real purpose was to encourage home ownership, and to increase levels of personal debt. This got the economy ticking over and made the Banks very wealthy.

The locking up of boat people. Well, this is always murky water. What is the left's positive solution to the boat people and illegal immigrants? The liberal policy is not ideal but it has stopped the boats and there are less deaths at sea. I genuinely have not heard a constructive policy that resolves this problem perfectly.

Ive always maintained my main issues with it were more legal (to do with the seperation of the powers, and the rule of law) for reasons I wont get into here. The element of racism behind it bothered the **** out of me as well.

But Howard did it for political reasons. If there is one thing that Blue collar working class and White collar Conservatives have in common, its they generally dont like brown people.

The lions share of the feral UPF supporting, Alt right, Stormfront cheering racist dickheads I know arent working in upper management for the banks or running a large buisiness. Theyre generally uneducated, poor, blue collar, working class bogan types.

 

[medusala]

Trump won because Mal doesn't approve of bigotry.

I have grave doubts you even managed to pass first year Arts.

 

[medusala]

If the government wanted to do something about housing it could simply give out zero intrest home loans.

that would do nothing for demand

The lions share of the feral UPF supporting, Alt right, Stormfront cheering racist dickheads I know arent working in upper management for the banks or running a large buisiness. Theyre generally uneducated, poor, blue collar, working class bogan types.

Working class scum eh Mal. One shouldnt be allowed to vote unless you have a degree or watch more than 30 hours of the ABC every week. Herald Sun readers and Collingwood supporters should have automatic exclusion from the electoral roll.

But Howard did it for political reasons.

Common sense is so uncommon these days.

Where do you draw the line Meds? Stripping citizenship of certain ethnicities and religions? Banning migration to certain ethnicities all religions? Implementing a registration system for them? State monitoring? Special laws? Forcibly deporting them? Work camps? A more... final solution?

Genuinely interested. Where do you draw the line?

You embarrass yourself with this crap. Not worthy of a response.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I have grave doubts you even managed to pass first year Arts.

Meds good-old, go-to, one-liner.

What have economists ever done for the world?....Other than to legitimize corporate/government corruption & greed.

A moral-compass is a redundant concept to such a profession.

 

[B4Bear]

However, when it comes to Christianity bashing, all bets are off!

Sounds like you are just looking for something to be outraged against.

 

[scotslad]

Its a common thread with with Islamophobes. They see Islam as one singular monolithic bloc, and all Muslims being part of the same 'thing'. They also attempt to attribue an exclusive fundamental interpretation of Islam and the Quran that only IS would agree with, and the majority of Muslims reject.

Which conveniently ignores the Shia/ Sunni divide, and the fact that its largely Muslims killing Muslims.

Its disengenious at best. Its like slathering all Christians with the actions of the Westborough Baptist Church.

I mean if you want to get stuck into fundamentalist Islam, discuss the problem with young men (and they're almost always men) radicalising, the serious problems with womens rights, the causes for the rise in Islamic terror attacks, death penalty for apostacy and so forth in Islamic fundamentalist countries, Im not going to stop you.

They're all legitimate topics for debate, discussion (and ridicule and strong criticism).

Just dont cross the line is all I ask.

That absolute inarguable and definitive proof that Islam and Terrorism are mutually exclusive is:

The vast majority of victims of "Islamic" Terrorism are.... Islamic!

I've yet to see a reasonable rebuttal to that argument. Surely if these Jihadists really did want to impose Islam on the world, the majority of the victims would be Christians and Westerners, no?

Couldn't be that the reasoning behind it all has much more to do with Geopolitics, money, power and greed eg the main cause behind just about every prominent violent movement in human history.

Yes many many Muslims have been innocent victims in all of this, many peaceful law abiding Muslims who want to lead a normal life are persecuted and for what?

Muslim journalists who have spoken up against it have been killed, normal members of society who want to take a stand against these atrocities are forced to curb their speech cos their lives and also their families lives have been threatened. they can only live in hope.

That's why I feel sorry for many refugees who come over also face difficulties here too just because of where they are from. it needs understanding to what their story is.

 

[Collingwoodity]

It doesnt have to be binary. They can be both good and bad things. I support capitalism for the same reason Adam Smith did (the invisible hand providing the greatest good for all). But of course, there are bad things as well. Moving jobs overseas (while it helps those overseas workers) hurts those in the wealthy country who lose their jobs. As those markets move away from manual labor and manufacturing to a different economy, those working class people who no longer have low skilled jobs, need to be upskilled to continue to particpate.

Im not persuaded that imposing tarriffs and forcing employers to keep jobs in wealthy nations (or paying them to stay) is the way to go. Look at Holden in Australia for example; just how long is the government expected to prop up those manufacturing jobs for?

You're just delaying the inevitable.

Of course the benefits of globalisation are lost on many. What use is a cheap iPhone, a visa waiver to India, the ability to set up your buisiness in China, or a half price car to an out of work blue collar laborer?

Absolutely not. Trump wants to pump a ton of cash into the armed forces. He was on record during the election saying that he would invade the middle east and take down IS (at one point saying both nukes and the killing of the terrorists families were both on the table). He has openly put forward a foreign policy in East Asia that would potentially lead to a nuclear arms race, and kick off a major war in the area.

No he didnt. All he increased was personal debt. At a greatly increased rate than the 5 years prior. There was no decrease in house values due to the FHOG; quite the opposite in fact. The grant simply encouraged people to buy a house. It increased demand. Once you increase demand (in a limited supply market), price rises (and this rise gobbled up the small FHOG pretty quickly). In addition for those that did so they got slugged with a lifetime debt (the mortgage) with a repayemnt value far in excess of the loan amount.

If the government wanted to do something about housing it could simply give out zero intrest home loans.

Im not saying its unwise to buy a house. Quite the opposite. Not all debt is bad debt.

In Perth we saw a massive boom in housing prices. There was a ton of demand due to the mining boom, and prices were inflated (doubling every year for several years, at an almost exponential rate). People were borrowing against the equity in those properties and bying investment properties (or sinking the cash into shares like Paladin, Newcrest, Rio and other mining companies) and making a killing. The 'cashed up bogan' with a 4 bedroom McMansion in the burbs, a boat and an investment property was a thing.

Then the GFC hit, and many of them lost their homes. Foreclosure rates in the Supreme Court went through the roof.

The FHOG helped, but it was an illusory help more than anything tangible. Its real purpose was to encourage home ownership, and to increase levels of personal debt. This got the economy ticking over and made the Banks very wealthy.

Ive always maintained my main issues with it were more legal (to do with the seperation of the powers, and the rule of law) for reasons I wont get into here. The element of racism behind it bothered the **** out of me as well.

But Howard did it for political reasons. If there is one thing that Blue collar working class and White collar Conservatives have in common, its they generally dont like brown people.

The lions share of the feral UPF supporting, Alt right, Stormfront cheering racist dickheads I know arent working in upper management for the banks or running a large buisiness. Theyre generally uneducated, poor, blue collar, working class bogan types.

I cannot agree regarding your housing comments.

The FHOG was only accesible to FHOs. It was not illusory. It was real. It was cash.

What is your solution to increase housing affordability?

 

[Malifice]

I cannot agree regarding your housing comments.

The FHOG was only accesible to FHOs. It was not illusory. It was real. It was cash.

Dude, its been widley noted that the grant pushed prices up and made properties less affordable:

Indeed, it’s arguable that in the current market the lower $7,000 grant is just as, if not more, valuable than the enhanced grant. The boost to the grant was blamed for inflating the price of entry-level properties, with buyers rushing to take advantage of it which in turn pushed prices up due to the demand.

http://www.yourmortgage.com.au/article/first-home-owners-grant-82983.aspx

In any event, the FHOG was only put inplace to counteract the impact of GST (another Howard policy) on homebuyers:

The First Home Owner Grant (FHOG) scheme was introduced on 1 July 2000 to offset the effect of the GST on home ownership.

http://www.firsthome.gov.au/

What is your solution to increase housing affordability?

Intrest free loans from the Government is one option. Of course, this wont happen becuase 'Banks'.

From a bigger economic picture we dont want more home ownership. Rental properties are a major driver of wealth for mum and dad investors who go the bricks and mortar route.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Here are the real terrorists....And their C.I.A boss.

 

[Werewolf]

Its disengenious at best. Its like slathering all Christians with the actions of the Westborough Baptist Church.

Or the drug gangs in Mexico who are actually terrorists. Those guys are completely insane

 

[medusala]

Meds good-old, go-to, one-liner.

What have economists ever done for the world?

Humour.

a) I'm not an economist
b) You have just made the Austrian school argument

kudos

 

[Lethality]

Trump won because Mal doesn't approve of bigotry.

Trump won because people are tired of the illiberals who call themselves liberals these days. And just to prove the point, many of these same people went on a bit of a bender when they didn't like the way the election went.

 

[Lethality]

Its a common thread with with Islamophobes. They see Islam as one singular monolithic bloc, and all Muslims being part of the same 'thing'. They also attempt to attribue an exclusive fundamental interpretation of Islam and the Quran that only IS would agree with, and the majority of Muslims reject.

Which conveniently ignores the Shia/ Sunni divide, and the fact that its largely Muslims killing Muslims.

Nope.

 

[Lethality]

You should do your shopping in Coburg or better still try shopping in Broadmeadows.
They don't discriminate either, having a go at the small children.
Real heros!

It's nothing compared to what Muslims do to each other for not following the religion properly, or for leaving it.

 

[Malifice]

Trump won because people are tired of the illiberals who call themselves liberals these days.

So... people voted for Trump (Far right wing demagogue)... because Hillary wasn't liberal enough?

Re your other point about Muslim attitudes towards and support of violence, I've shown you several polls by Gallup and others that shows widespread condemnation of violence by Muslims; even more so than those of other religions when compared side-by-side. That you choose to continuously ignore that research, pretend it doesn't exist, and hand wave it away, says a lot about your bias. It's hard to have a rational discussion with someone who engages in tactics such as denial and obfuscation.

I mean I don't like Islam any more than you do. But at least I can be objective about the data and other information. Your bias gets in your way. Be objective. You come across as a bigot by ignoring the facts that go against your argument or don't match with your paradigm that all Muslims are naturally violent or more inclined to violence than others.

If we can accept the fact that most Muslims denounce the Islamic State, and repudiate violence, then surely we can also accept the problem with Islamic terrorism is thus a little bit more complex than just 'Islam'.

Why do you continuously want to throw those that repudiate violence and denounce the Islamic State in the same bin is as the bad guys? Shouldn't we be working with the moderates? What use is there in attacking them as well? What good does it do lumping them in with the Islamic State or other Islamists?

Let's just assume for a second that your fictional world is actually correct. All 2 billion of the world's Muslims are violet monsters who want to kill or convert us.

What do you propose we do about it? What's the solution?

 

[Malifice]

Actually screw this. Weve had this discussion before. I know where it's headed. You're still posting the same sh*t that got you turfed from the last thread. Muslims are predisposed to violence, out to get us, moderates don't exist. etc.

It's impossible to have a rational discussion on the topic with you.

Take it to a different forum.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I see Lethality still hasn't learn't a damn thing....Way to expand that closed-mind podge.

The only terrorism going on in the world, is courtesy of the F.B.I, the C.I.A, The U.S military industrial complex & Nato....At the behest of the corporations who now OWN Congress....Just thank your lucky stars you live in OZ mate, where our pollies are merely inept shysters & not mass murdering conspirators.

9/11 was an inside job & everyone now knows that....There is no longer any excuse for your ignorance.

 

[Maggie5]

It's nothing compared to what Muslims do to each other for not following the religion properly, or for leaving it.

You know I don't watch bullshit YouTube and read bullshit memes.
Please don't waste your time posting these for me.
Post it to your cheer squad that like your post like Lebbo73 and kwikfix.

Here is a good news story for you if you can stomach it:
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...0161208-gt6ltm.html?google_editors_picks=true

 

[fleabitten]

You know I don't watch bullshit YouTube and read bullshit memes.
Please don't waste your time posting these for me.

It's a documentary by ITV, the oldest commercial television network in the UK. It's directed by Deeyah Khan who is an award-winning director (an Emmy and a Peabody) and women's rights activist.

If you're not interested in the plight of ex-Muslims (particularly women), just say so.

 

[fleabitten]

Actually screw this. Weve had this discussion before. I know where it's headed. You're still posting the same sh*t that got you turfed from the last thread. Muslims are predisposed to violence, out to get us, moderates don't exist. etc.

It's impossible to have a rational discussion on the topic with you.

Take it to a different forum.

If you're addressing Lethality here, then...that's ridiculous.

 

[Paul Kersey]

Gee, I expected plenty of talk in here about the Jakarta governor (not ethnic Indonesian nor muslim) currently being trialled for blasphemy in Indonesia.

 

[Roylion]

Gee, I expected plenty of talk in here about the Jakarta governor (not ethnic Indonesian nor muslim) currently being trialled for blasphemy in Indonesia.

Which of course is as ridiculous as this.

 

[cartwright]

Gee, I expected plenty of talk in here about the Jakarta governor (not ethnic Indonesian nor muslim) currently being trialled for blasphemy in Indonesia.

Barely made the msm news.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Tulsi Gabbard....Tables legislation to stop U.S.A from funding terrorist organizations all around the world.

Question....Does that include the C.I.A as well?

 

[midorigreenwood]

Gee, I expected plenty of talk in here about the Jakarta governor (not ethnic Indonesian nor muslim) currently being trialled for blasphemy in Indonesia.

pretty much a lost cause....just hope the poor bugger isn't lynched by the mob.