Fremantle & Ross Lyon

[Duskfire]

The game has changed; Lyons style no longer holds up. The afl is pushing teams to be faster and higher scoring and 60 - 70 points a game won't cut it anymore. In this day and age teams need to have a balance of attack and defence and Fremantle just don't have that. Their failed bid for Hogan nullified their chances a great deal

It is only the first game sure but when the first game follows signs of the previous season it shows a general collective picture. Geelong have struggled against freo recently - last year it took Dangerfield carrying the team over the line. Yet with a younger team Geelong had the game won at half time. It's very worrying

 

[chickentendies]

Its a single game - people are overreacting. Give it 4 - 5 games to see where they are actually at.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Most recent one was 4 years ago. The game has changed since then.

2015 they were on top of the ladder all season - clearly in front for most of it - until Fyfe's injuries derailed it. A healthy Fyfe (even in the prelim IMO) and you have an all west Final at the G - anything couldve happened that year. Thats only 2 seasons ago.

Until we see further proof in 2017, i am willing to pass off 2016 as one s**t year where nothing went there way (and the club decided to tank relatively early on).

If the bye comes round and they are sitting on only 1 or 2 wins then by all means - move him on. (Or if the playing group make it clear they cant play for him).
But if they are around the 8-14 mark on the ladder (where I think they will be) then Ross has earnt the right to have some faith put in him.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Is Lyon record as saying that skills are secondary to effort?

 

[Adz]

Not sure why people thought they'd bounce back. They were as bad as Fitzroy 1996 last year. Take out Fye and they have the worst list in the Comp.
Lyon will be sacked by the bye rounds.

 

[Van_Dyke]

They were as bad as Fitzroy 1996 last year

You're shitting me yeah? If we were Fitzroy 1996 bad then how did we win more than 1 game?

 

[Adz]

You're shitting me yeah? If we were Fitzroy 1996 bad then how did we win more than 1 game?

During the first 2 months you were as bad as Fitzroy statistically.
I can't see who you will beat this year. Only Carlton at home?

 

[Woobla Stainz]

IF Owen is in town for too long, expect Fyfe to head East. No one wants to go through a 4 year rebuild, when you're at your best physically for those 4 years.


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Spot on Fyfe wants a premiership and a crack at a Norm Smith, He needs it for his brand.
IMO and i have posted this in the offseason Freo are the furthest away from a flag atm.
They should of used their top draft pick to have a crack at a potential star instead of bringing in the average b and c graders they did.

 

[Suma Magic]

They are one game into a four year rebuild.

They are around 1% of the way through the rebuild.

We need to be a bit more patient.

 

[Van_Dyke]

During the first 2 months you were as bad as Fitzroy statistically.
I can't see who you will beat this year. Only Carlton at home?

I don't see the point in only looking at a certain time frame to draw a conclusion about the whole season.

Upsets always happen. People thought Essendon weren't gong to win a game. Ditto with GWS years ago.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

They will improve and win 6-8 games.
People expect turnarounds to happen at an unrealistic time frame these days

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Well the turnaround from the top to near bottom only took one pre-season.

 

[Ian Dunross]

Danyle Pearce makes any team worse imo

He goes under the radar meanwhile he's about the worst kick in the competition, certainly for an outside mid

Without knowing their fitness, Crozier, Tucker, Balic should all be getting games

Collins is better than Dawson too surely...

 

[Gavin Excell]

Spot on Fyfe wants a premiership and a crack at a Norm Smith, He needs it for his brand.
IMO and i have posted this in the offseason Freo are the furthest away from a flag atm.
They should of used their top draft pick to have a crack at a potential star instead of bringing in the average b and c graders they did.

so its a given then he will leave Freo one year into his captaincy?


if so surely that casts a pall?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

2015 they were on top of the ladder all season - clearly in front for most of it - until Fyfe's injuries derailed it. A healthy Fyfe (even in the prelim IMO) and you have an all west Final at the G - anything couldve happened that year. Thats only 2 seasons ago.

Until we see further proof in 2017, i am willing to pass off 2016 as one s**t year where nothing went there way (and the club decided to tank relatively early on).

If the bye comes round and they are sitting on only 1 or 2 wins then by all means - move him on. (Or if the playing group make it clear they cant play for him).
But if they are around the 8-14 mark on the ladder (where I think they will be) then Ross has earnt the right to have some faith put in him.

Do you think his defensive zone based gameplan will holdup against some of the more attacking gameplans developed in the last season or two? The Bulldogs ripped through them in round 1 last year, before injuries hit

 

[Woobla Stainz]

so its a given then he will leave Freo one year into his captaincy?


if so surely that casts a pall?

Not a given depends on where they finish and if they show any promise. He will not want to stick around if they dont show any signs of being able to play finals the next few years.

I dont think he will let the captaincy hold him back. Judd was only captain for 2 years before leaving WCE.

 

[igon value]

Is Lyon record as saying that skills are secondary to effort?

Something like 'put the effort in and the skills look after themselves'.

 

[donkeypunchd]

so its a given then he will leave Freo one year into his captaincy?


if so surely that casts a pall?

If he hasn't re-signed by the bye it will be a media frenzy for the last few months, his body language and every interview will be parsed for evidence of his intentions. If they continue losing you'll have everyone who's anyone in WA football putting their opinion out there. In the media bubble of Perth that has the potential to be very disruptive to the club.

 

[armpit]

I understand but there are hundreds of these threads and they're just so stupid and premature at the moment. If we come out and beat port on the weekend the entire thread looks stupid as ****.

Exactly.

 

[master bate]

Griffin, Dawson, D Pearce and Suban shouldn't have played round 1, should really only play if needed due to lots of injuries.

Kersten might be handy but he had a stinker and needs to go back to the 2's.

Taberner - who isn't all that great but at least provides some mobility should be the 2nd ruck/forward. McCarthy can even ruck if needed.
Collins or Logue need to get games down back. Get rid of Zac.
With S Hill, B Hill, Weller, Langdon and Tucker there's no need to play D Pearce. Crozier and/or Balic can come in.
Same with Fyfe, Mundy, Neale and Blakely, no need to play Suban.

Apeness and Alex Pearce are pretty bad injuries because along with McCarthy and Hamling they'd form a pretty good young spine to develop around. So that's a shame for Freo. But the young runners are pretty good and there's a bit of depth and flexibility there. They've got skills and energy. They need a fast running game style to suit them.

Richmond looked good in week 1 having changed the way they played, added a couple of veterans and played a style to suit their kids. That's what Freo needs to do.

 

[armpit]

If he hasn't re-signed by the bye it will be a media frenzy for the last few months, his body language and every interview will be parsed for evidence of his intentions. If they continue losing you'll have everyone who's anyone in WA football putting their opinion out there. In the media bubble of Perth that has the potential to be very disruptive to the club.

You mean like they all did last season and all pre season? Who looked like idiots when it was all said and done? The idiots looked like idiots.

 

[StCicatriz]

This thread is an overreaction for a poor performance on the weekend against a side who played in a prelim last year. We still have foot soldiers to phase out (Suban, Dawson, Eventually D.Pearce, Griffen etc) But you can't just field a side full of kids and expect to remain somewhat competitive. Our main issues are still transitioning out of the backline and our inability to to use the ball well going inside 50, The addition of Hill should help in both of those areas and if Bennell can ever get on the park he should be a mainstay at half forward for us. Hopefully some more youth is brought in this week such as Balic, but the players need time to grow. Can't expect McCarthy to be the saviour after missing a whole season of football.

Ross said skill wasn't an issue on the weekend...

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Classic Fremantle, where are they at? thread. I will engage with it genuinely.

So far Lyon has not indicated that Freo is in a rebuild mode,bringing in players like Hill, Kersten and Hamling who it was hoped would make an immediate impact. A look at their fixture would suggest that there are only four winnable games before the bye, at what stage does Ross Lyon's tenure become untenable for the Fremantle board, who extended his contract last year.

Well actually he has. He said so explicitly last year.

I'll give you a direct quote:

"We understand we're rebuilding. That's on the agenda," Lyon said on Friday.

"I've certainly got a time frame. Everyone hopes to do it quickly. But I think history tells you it's going to take some time.

"Basically [for] everyone it's about in their fourth year isn't it.

"We don't know exactly where we're at. It's a moving feast. There's basically seven or eight players under 20 games again. We're on a journey."

And his statements mirror that of the admin in that regard (Rosich explicitly said '4 year rebuild' as well).

Regarding the next part of your statement, Hamling, Hill, McCarthy and Kersten are all basically 24 or under. So i'm not sure that necessarily contradicts any direction previously stated.

There's two components to the direction of the club.

The first is that the list was (is) cooked. It was done. Luke Mac gone, Pav gone, Johnson cooked and the decline of a lot of other lesser talents like Ballantyne, Mayne, Duffield and co who were actually pretty important players 2012-2015. There is absolutely talent there, but there's not enough depth and there's not enough depth in the right positions for it to challenge right now. We're in a bit of a holding pattern where there is a nucleus of very good experienced and still quite young players, but there are a lot of both inexperienced kids and older stalwarts surrounding them. We've turned over a lot of the list last year but you can't do it all in one year. This year will see players like Johnson, Griffin, Suban, D.Pearce and Dawson (only in the side due to an Alex Pearce injury), to take a few from the round 1 22, replaced by other kids. We haven't gone full Carlton because we can't - we've only had one draft and trade period so far to really start throwing players overboard (11 players retired/delisted/left), more will come (frankly I think you'll see the back of Taberner and Kersten soon enough as well - spuds).

The second issue is the coach. Lyon will have to change his style, but of course he already has changed it a fair bit. We played quite a bit differently in 2015 compared to 2013. And of course the changes need to keep coming. And they are, if the teething problems the players seem to be having are anything to go by. But he gets the credits to do that. Despite the nostradamus-like one-liners I imagine are populating this thread, he's actually a pretty good coach based on his track record. And as previously stated he's admitted the need to rebuild, and he seems amenable to playing kids. To answer how long he gets, the answer is at least this year and most of the next as well. But that is, to some extent, probably predicated on having a direction. That is, showing the continued ability to develop younger players and have them pick up key roles within the side. Signs are positive so far based on Weller, Tucker, Blakely and Langdon just from last year. I don't really see any way Lyon gets canned before late 2018. Even then it will probably be only if he really *s up development, not based on wins or losses.

I imagine the preferred media narrative will probably be a bit different, but i'm not sure that most of the media has actually accepted we are rebuilding despite the fairly explicit statements above. A Fyfe contract will probably quell the noise a fair bit, and i'd be betting odds on that that happens.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Griffin, Dawson, D Pearce and Suban shouldn't have played round 1, should really only play if needed due to lots of injuries.
Kersten might be handy but he had a stinker and needs to go back to the 2's.

Taberner - who isn't all that great but at least provides some mobility should be the 2nd ruck/forward. McCarthy can even ruck if needed.
Collins or Logue need to get games down back. Get rid of Zac.
With S Hill, B Hill, Weller, Langdon and Tucker there's no need to play D Pearce. Crozier and/or Balic can come in.
Same with Fyfe, Mundy, Neale and Blakely, no need to play Suban.

Apeness and Alex Pearce are pretty bad injuries because along with McCarthy and Hamling they'd form a pretty good young spine to develop around. So that's a shame for Freo. But the young runners are pretty good and there's a bit of depth and flexibility there. They've got skills and energy. They need a fast running game style to suit them.

Richmond looked good in week 1 having changed the way they played, added a couple of veterans and played a style to suit their kids. That's what Freo needs to do.

Cam McCarthy rucking? He's 193 cms....

 

[StCicatriz]

he was open about the need the change to adapt to modern football at the end of 2015. he highlighted that he needed to release some control to his assistants and to become a more "managerial coach" like those who are successful now. he highlighted he had to abandon his defensive game plan, built on stoppages, tagging etc. and that he had to deliver a game plan built more on attack, quick short disposal that cuts through zones. he highlighted he had to develop the kids and bring through the next generation.

that lasted less than 12 months. by the 3/4 mark of last season he conceded it did not work. he blamed himself saying he did not get the football dept right. he said he would be reverting back to what "worked". he would be taking more control. he would be going back to the defencive game plan. he would not be "gifting" games to the kids. he would be harder on the players.

i am surprised this wasnt a bigger talking point than it was. it was absolutely damning. essentially he confirmed that he was not able to adapt to the modern game. he could not change.

i cant see this season being much better than last tbh. i think freo fans will start to realise the situation they are in with him by the mid way mark of this season. but action will not happen until next season when it finally becomes too much. he will not see out his contract that is till the end of 2020. i think he will be sacked in 2018, they will pay out the last 2 years of his contract. freo will replace him with a coach that can see through a full rebuild of the list. a coach who can develop the players AND assistant coaches

the worrying thing for me if i was a freo fan is that the two biggest issues they have are confidence in its players and their overall skill/disposal. i think you would be hard pressed to find a freo fan that does not raise their skill and disposal are one of the major issues. yet after the round 1 loss ross states that skill is not something theyre working on and its a non issue. then you have pav during the game day commentary stating its not something they work on

i mean how in the hell is that escaping scrutiny by their supporters? there would not be another team in the land that does not work on their disposal and skill. its literally one of the most important aspects of modern football. hawthorn literally won 3 flags in a row from superior disposal that allowed them to cut through the zones that were developed between 2008-2012

ross just cant see past the game plan he was given by leigh tudor in the offseason of 2009 that was a new and improved version of clarkos cluster in 2008

 

[TheMcManusNose]

But how much time? Johnson is 32. Sandilands is 34.

By the time it is sorted, what will our win-loss record be? Will we make finals? Who will retire at the end of the year? Will we be in the same position next year, waiting on a new team to gel because of a bunch of retirees?

Yeah we actually will. But that's why this is called a rebuild, you have to actually rebuild the damn thing.

I'm not really sure why everyone is so surprised by this whole situation. We said we were rebuilding. We went out and did things that indicated that we were. We now are.

Yeah sure, we all probably held out hope that Fyfe, Sandi and Johnno coming back and the addition of Hill, Hamling and McCarthy might magically put us back to the top-4 level. But I think we can probably disabuse ourselves of that notion after last weekend's display. So rebuild it is.