Review Saints vs Cats review

[sunny3193]

I have my own business and in real life I'm very optimistic as you can't do anything entrepreneurial with out an almost delusional amount of optimism. I don't know if it because it's something I have zero control over and at the same time I'm a little bit overly competitive, but I get an over the top emotional response from losses. I think I followed the wrong club...or perhaps it's like that experiment with rats where they rather feel pain than be bored.

I would love someone to run a psychological profile over AFL club supporters because I have always felt that, anecdotally, there are clear differences.
Irrespective of familial ties, like is attracted to like.
For example: Collingwood is a different species to us; we do not speak the same language, we do not share the same outlook, we have different expectations, our motivation differs.
But with others, we have a greater affinity.
In the Peter Temple novel "Black Tide", the four old Fitzroy supporters are driving the protagonist (Jack Irish) crazy with their Fitzroy focus, even though Fitzroy is long gone and up north. He puts them on a new and more local path: St Kilda. Reluctantly at first, then with increasing enthusiasm their attention locks on to the Saints. Even to the point of attending our games.
I'm reading this book in the States and I just knew which club was going to be the selection. It resonated with me.
So, you may have had no choice in the matter:your genes made you do it!!
(PS: great writer by the way, do yourself a favour and read his work. All set in Melbourne. He absolutely nails the AFL culture. AND, he is South African born.)

 

[Longmembrey]

There is no way a side could have a ruckman on the bench for 80% of the game and then match midfields who have 4 players constantly rotating off the bench we would have fractionally over 3. Teams are playing less and less rucks so having 2 ruckmen that can play in one position would be suicidal.

you are probably right. But, if ruck men are so important (which this thread implies they are) & they give our midfielders first use then it might be worth a try. Maybe if our mifielders are not constantly on the back foot, tackling, chasing, etc, they won't fatigue as much. Plus we would keep our forward structure. Plus having 2 fresh ruck men would mean they can go flat out all game & smash the opposition ruck man.

 

[sunny3193]

On the money, but no tatt

Easy to go to the Edgy so often when growing up living on Mentone Parade

For me it was the Beauie on a Thursday night.
Can remember floating down Bodley St in a Beetle after a summer thunderstorm and thinking it great fun.
Proof Volkswagen's float!
Proof I liked my pots.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I would love someone to run a psychological profile over AFL club supporters because I have always felt that, anecdotally, there are clear differences.
Irrespective of familial ties, like is attracted to like.
For example: Collingwood is a different species to us; we do not speak the same language, we do not share the same outlook, we have different expectations, our motivation differs.
But with others, we have a greater affinity.
In the Peter Temple novel "Black Tide", the four old Fitzroy supporters are driving the protagonist (Jack Irish) crazy with their Fitzroy focus, even though Fitzroy is long gone and up north. He puts them on a new and more local path: St Kilda. Reluctantly at first, then with increasing enthusiasm their attention locks on to the Saints. Even to the point of attending our games.
I'm reading this book in the States and I just knew which club was going to be the selection. It resonated with me.
So, you may have had no choice in the matter:your genes made you do it!!
(PS: great writer by the way, do yourself a favour and read his work. All set in Melbourne. He absolutely nails the AFL culture. AND, he is South African born.)

Well, this South African born poster can't blame it on the genes...just my son's Prep teacher when we emigrated! If I'd had a clue about the history of the Saints I would have run a mile!

 

[sunny3193]

There is no way a side could have a ruckman on the bench for 80% of the game and then match midfields who have 4 players constantly rotating off the bench we would have fractionally over 3. Teams are playing less and less rucks so having 2 ruckmen that can play in one position would be suicidal.

Ok, you need to explain this to me.
Cause I'm not understanding.
People are complaining about Dunstan having 60% TOG.
I'm thinking this is self evident : 4 mids positions and 6 mids (2 on bench).
Everything else being equal = 67% TOG.
If you're now rotating 4 mids then the ave TOG must be 50%.
So why the melts about Dunstan's 60%?
And if two of those mids are called Dangerwood, they'll be spending more TOG so the other 6 are spending even less.

 

[saint66au]

I agree completely.
Last year we didn't really have expectations....and we exceeded anything we thought we were going to do. Over achieved in fact.
This in turn, really put the expectation on us for this season. And I think in a way we have to temper our expectations. If we finish 9th again, with a more difficult draw, is that not considered a successful season THIS year?

I suppose we'd all like a Rolls Royce team, but we didn't even have that in 2009, just a handful of Rolls Royce players.

I feel your pain, I think we all do, this waiting game can be bloody soul destroying, and there's no guarantee at the end either!

If, for whatever reason, we dont make finals this year there will be some serious pressure to make big inroads in 2018..the year the Club has said we should be challenging. 2018 is 6 years without finals...and in this age of equalisation very few sides go that long without some heat being brought to bear.

 

[plugger66]

Ok, you need to explain this to me.
Cause I'm not understanding.
People are complaining about Dunstan having 60% TOG.
I'm thinking this is self evident : 4 mids positions and 6 mids (2 on bench).
Everything else being equal = 67% TOG.
If you're now rotating 4 mids then the ave TOG must be 50%.
So why the melts about Dunstan's 60%?
And if two of those mids are called Dangerwood, they'll be spending more TOG so the other 6 are spending even less.

More than 4 mids get rotated. The interchange though is mainly used for mids. Having only 3 spots available would mean less rest for players. It just won't happen. The only way two rucks can play is if one is good enough to play 70% of the game forward


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[Gangnam Saint]

I have my own business and in real life I'm very optimistic as you can't do anything entrepreneurial with out an almost delusional amount of optimism. I don't know if it because it's something I have zero control over and at the same time I'm a little bit overly competitive, but I get an over the top emotional response from losses. I think I followed the wrong club...or perhaps it's like that experiment with rats where they rather feel pain than be bored.

Even for lab rats this is cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[VDS66]

Ok, you need to explain this to me.
Cause I'm not understanding.
People are complaining about Dunstan having 60% TOG.
I'm thinking this is self evident : 4 mids positions and 6 mids (2 on bench).
Everything else being equal = 67% TOG.
If you're now rotating 4 mids then the ave TOG must be 50%.
So why the melts about Dunstan's 60%?
And if two of those mids are called Dangerwood, they'll be spending more TOG so the other 6 are spending even less.

Hickey gets more disposals than Dunstan, so there goes your theory...

And it's 5 mids rotating, not 4.

 

[CursingFijian]

In all the Hickey/Longer back and forth on our board, I think you may be the most on the money with the bolded above. It might be tough for us to admit, but an area we thought we were well stocked in is turning into an area where each ruckman has their own respective strengths but ultimately none are good enough to hold down a starting spot on their own. It's a tough position to be in.

It is the single biggest blight on our list IMO. Not only does it preclude us from carrying two more mids. But, the fact that we have 4 ruck men on our list makes us unattractive to maturing prospects on the market. It probably also means we are not looking to add another ruck unless he fits in a special category, outside the senior list. Nankervis to Richmond has been a big part of their transformation. If there is another promising prospect on the market we need to have the space to be able to make a play for him.


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[Crusty Undies]

Ok, you need to explain this to me.
Cause I'm not understanding.
People are complaining about Dunstan having 60% TOG.
I'm thinking this is self evident : 4 mids positions and 6 mids (2 on bench).
Everything else being equal = 67% TOG.
If you're now rotating 4 mids then the ave TOG must be 50%.
So why the melts about Dunstan's 60%?
And if two of those mids are called Dangerwood, they'll be spending more TOG so the other 6 are spending even less.

Cos most of the best teams have mids that rotate to other positions to rest rather than the bench. Dangerfield eg rests in the forward line and so has mucj higher tog without significqntly detracting from his fellow midfielders tog.

 

[CursingFijian]

Not too tall, they take turns resting. That means we have only 50% TOG for them, but hell Dunstan only gets sixty something anyway.
If Hickey is rested more he may be more lethal when he plays.
Not the worst idea IMO.

I think Hickey could spend more than 50% time on ground,resting both back and forward when required, perhaps depending on which side has momentum.

Hickey would towel up most second rucks, and give us an edge in the middle for those periods. It could be a real boost to a midfield, especially late in quarters and games, when lead rucks are being rested.

Again, I think most here would presume that carrying a second ruck means fewer midfield rotations and puts more pressure on our midfielders to run out games. So it's just a matter of getting the system right. When Longer needs a spell he goes to the bench. When he comes back on, Hickey could give Bruce a chop out. Or Riewoldt. Or we could put him behind the ball as an extra in defence.

The crux of the matter is, would a second ruck translate into more clearances. If the answer is no, then we need the extra mid.


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[Crusty Undies]

I think Hickey could spend more than 50% time on ground,resting both back and forward when required, perhaps depending on which side has momentum.

Hickey would towel up most second rucks, and give us an edge in the middle for those periods. It could be a real boost to a midfield, especially late in quarters and games, when lead rucks are being rested.

Again, I think most here would presume that carrying a second ruck means fewer midfield rotations and puts more pressure on our midfielders to run out games. So it's just a matter of getting the system right. When Longer needs a spell he goes to the bench. When he comes back on, Hickey could give Bruce a chop out. Or Riewoldt. Or we could put him behind the ball as an extra in defence.

The crux of the matter is, would a second ruck translate into more clearances. If the answer is no, then we need the extra mid.


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I don't think our issues with clearances and cotested possies comes as much from the ruck as from the lack of good midfielders after Stuv and Ross. Steele looks good as do Acres and Gresh but for some reason they all seem to have very limited time in the middle atm. Dunstan looks 2nd rate unfortunately and Armo is perma-injured now. Adding another ruck would put even more pressure on Steven and Ross to carry our midfield imo. Especially late in games when all our other mids are well and truly cooked.

 

[cooperrules]

Actually not fussed if we don't make finals. Apart from being a subjective sign that we have improved, no point being there unless you are half a chance at the big one.

I recall 2008. We went deep but were so far off the pace it wasn't funny.

So other than a quick high, not fussed at all.

We need to fix this midfield issue great opportunity to do so. T.A.N.K or is it too early.

 

[plugger66]

I don't think our issues with clearances and cotested possies comes as much from the ruck as from the lack of good midfielders after Stuv and Ross. Steele looks good as do Acres and Gresh but for some reason they all seem to have very limited time in the middle atm. Dunstan looks 2nd rate unfortunately and Armo is perma-injured now. Adding another ruck would put even more pressure on Steven and Ross to carry our midfield imo. Especially late in games when all our other mids are well and truly cooked.

You are confusing. You want longer to play because you think he is a better tap ruckman but then you say that probably won't help with clearances. If that is the case then surely you want the better around the ground ruckman to play and everything points to hickey in that department


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[Persevering Saint]

Joey speaks out about THAT 50m penalty.
https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/afl/news/leigh-montagna-speaks-out-about-his-farcical-50m-penalty

 

[Saintbloke]

Actually not fussed if we don't make finals. Apart from being a subjective sign that we have improved, no point being there unless you are half a chance at the big one.

I recall 2008. We went deep but were so far off the pace it wasn't funny.

So other than a quick high, not fussed at all.

We should be passionate about making the finals every year! Tolerating "Close-enough" or "good-enough" is the thinking that has held us back, and one of the reasons our club has only one premiership cup on the shelf after all this time in the competition.
Our lack-lustre performances so far this season gives me no confidence that we are making any progress whatsoever.

 

[luca77]

On the money, but no tatt

Easy to go to the Edgy so often when growing up living on Mentone Parade

I went there too. Wouldn't be surprised if some people did get that tatt! Finnis might have one, he seemed to love the place.

 

[cooperrules]

We should be passionate about making the finals every year! Tolerating "Close-enough" or "good-enough" is the thinking that has held us back, and one of the reasons our club has only one premiership cup on the shelf after all this time in the competition.
Our lack-lustre performances so far this season gives me no confidence that we are making any progress whatsoever.

If you dont have cattle theres not much you can do. Endevour will only get you so far. These guys have a serious crack thats all you can ask for at this stage.

 

[Brains Trust66]

Are you talking about the reaction to the bloke who came on here saying "he thought we were better than that" regarding booing of Selwood? Because that bloke deserved a serve.

No I was talking about the guy who called the two cats supporters filth and told them to pls off back to their own board basically.


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[SaintsSeptember]

Same here, have my own business and work in teams in a creative field so I find it is amazing working on different projects with optimists and pessimists. I honestly see little benefit from pessimists when it comes to teams. Sure, if they are good at what they do they can give good results but the journey sure isn't fun and it is spoiled for others around them. They can also strangle potential growth and opportunities by shooting down those that are able to see the potential of any given thing.

Having supported the Saints for almost 40 years, the off-field, admin, coaches and playing group are pretty much all singing from the same song-sheet for the first time in my life-time. I feel us long-suffering supporters - instead of being beaten down by years without a flag - should know more than anyone that we are going in the right direction because we sure as hell know what the wrong direction is! I think I said on another thread, if we can't feel optimism for the future based on where we are now and where we are going, we might as well give up supporting a footy team.

But don't confuse pessimism with assessing "things that can go wrong". It often seems like even very large organizations ignore risks because everyone is on board the wagon. There is a massive difference between "that can never work" and " what if this happens".

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Resting on the bench? Instead of another mid? Because I seem to remember, a long time ago I'll admit, that Hickey wasn't really good enough resting forward when we did play the two together. And I doubt Longer could do it.

I'm really keen to get Stevens in the middle, I don't think we can play two rucks...we just have to decide which is more beneficial for us - a big, strong, imposing presence who can win the hitouts, or a more mobile, around the ground guy who can take marks and bob up to take marks in defence or forward.

I'm not sure i believe in resting forward any more, anyone on the ground is moving fast all the time.

 

[luca77]

It is the single biggest blight on our list IMO. Not only does it preclude us from carrying two more mids. But, the fact that we have 4 ruck men on our list makes us unattractive to maturing prospects on the market. It probably also means we are not looking to add another ruck unless he fits in a special category, outside the senior list. Nankervis to Richmond has been a big part of their transformation. If there is another promising prospect on the market we need to have the space to be able to make a play for him.


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I think we need to hold our nerve on our rucks and be patient while all are given a decent run at it in the ones. The worst result I can think of for this year is if we just play Hickey, give Longer one or two games and don't give the other guys any. Whether we're winning or losing the ruck contests or clearances (our midfield isn't up to it atm, so that doesn't help), we need to know what we have and who is worth keeping/trading/delisting at the end of the year and who can/can't play alongside who. Same goes for all these smaller fwd/mids we've stockpiled.
Hopefully when they do get a run at it, we appreciate that and don't have the same "sky is falling" reaction we had on here to last weekend's loss.
I don't think there's any hurry to have the league's greatest ruckman. Until we're playing for a top 4 spot, a serviceable ruckman will do. I'm prepared to put up with their individual weaknesses and see how the coach works around them.

 

[sunny3193]

More than 4 mids get rotated. The interchange though is mainly used for mids. Having only 3 spots available would mean less rest for players. It just won't happen. The only way two rucks can play is if one is good enough to play 70% of the game forward


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Thanks for the heads up.
Sorry for not making it clearer but I was asking you a question about rotating the mids.
I'm not focused on whatever the rucks or anyone else are doing.
I don't care.
I'm asking about mids only.
I still do not understand this emphasis on TOG.

Three mid positions (ruck rover, rover and centre) plus one rotating through from elsewhere on the ground = four mids.
IF we have two mids on the pine that means a total of six mids and, everything else being equal, an average TOG of 67%.
If we have more mids rotating off the pine, like the four you were talking about, then the average TOG must be 50%.

Or if we have two rotating through from elsewhere on the ground (= five mids) plus two mids on the pine, that still means an average TOG of 70%.
If we have more mids rotating off the pine, like the four you were talking about, then the average TOG must be 55%

And compounding this: If there is a Dangerwood involved, they would have higher TOG so the others by definition must have lower TOG.

This is not rocket science, this is basic mathematics.

So why the melts about Dunstan's TOG?

If the rotation protocols are unknown (as would be here) then surely a player's TOG is not a reflection of their "tank", but simply a meaningless statistic and people who quote them are only revealing their ignorance?

 

[Phoenix_9]

Without doing an analysis, I'd say roughly 2 interchange spots are for mids, 1 for defenders and 1 for forwards.
If I have time later, I'll do some analysis.
But 2 rucks won't work unfortunately. Our mids are gassed halfway through the last quarter as it is, less rotations and they'll have no chance of running out games under our taxing game style.