Team defence

[rumply]

starting Daniher and Fantasia 20 metres from goal

We can only hope. The first coach that finally has the balls to do something like this will probably get a standing ovation from everyone at the ground come quarter time regardless.

 

[citizen-erased]

Lets not skirt around the issue and get to the core of it. We have a few players that just don't cut it in that area and don't offer enough the other way. The same names that people defend to the hilt for some strange reason then moan about defense. Here's the crux of it...

Zaharakis - Bad. Can't stick tackles, defend or run both ways. First year rookies waltz past him. Doesn't offer enough the other way. No closing speed or will to close down.
Stanton - Bad. See Zaka. For a senior player has trouble tackling the kids or shaking them off. No closing speed to put any pressure on.
Goddard - Average. Can stick tackles but can't close down the opposition. Offers a bit the other way but barely enough to counter. Slightly better this year.
Heppell - Average. Always in and under so hard to be too critical. Lacks closing speed but has a fair dinkum crack.
Watson - Average. See Heppell.
Colyer - Bad. Small and outside but offers pace and can afford to have one of these guys.
Zerrett - Good. Can stick a tackle for a little bloke and put some pressure on but struggles to run back at times.
Parish - Good. Has a fair dinkum crack and bust his gut but still a little light weight. Needs another year or two.
Tippa - Good. Has pace and power but still learning craft. Makes up a bit the other way.
Fantasia - Average. Has good closing speed but a little lightweight. Makes up a bit the other way.
Langford - Bad. Lacks intensity and for a guy thats supposed to be quick is very slow without ball. Nothing really the other way.
Green - Average. Reminds me of Alwyn Davey post reco. Legs seem to be moving fast but doesn't have any defensive impact.
Daniher - Bad. Still has too much school boy about him but he's our one big guy that gives the other way.

I think we need to find those 4-6 guys in the team that can add a bit more. We need players to replace Zaka, Stanton, Langford, Green and even Goddard.
Langford is young and can be excused but the others, first two especially, its a bit too late.

about right.
though i don't think Langford is supposed to be quick (Laverde is pretty good pace wise). He's more quality of disposal. Its nice to have a player who can kick straight on the list, so lets keep him in.
Goddard may not tackle, but he's the only clearance mid we have likely to be up to standard on the list next year. Also, he's the next best kick.

Francis & Laverde are the two I'm keen to see in terms of what they bring here.
Begley too.
Big quick units with good overhead and kicking skills.

A lot of our issues is the imbalance in kids we have out there.
Parish, Merrett, Tippa, Fantasia, McGrath - all small players. All fit. All playing
Begley, Francis, Laverde - bigger bodied, taller. All unfit. None playing.
Add to that Myers being out too.

 

[Oh Tayteridge]

We should play opposite day and move Daniher to full back so we lose our best forward instead of our best backman the other way

 

[Vander18]

Lets not skirt around the issue and get to the core of it. We have a few players that just don't cut it in that area and don't offer enough the other way. The same names that people defend to the hilt for some strange reason then moan about defense. Here's the crux of it...

Zaharakis - Bad. Can't stick tackles, defend or run both ways. First year rookies waltz past him. Doesn't offer enough the other way. No closing speed or will to close down.
Stanton - Bad. See Zaka. For a senior player has trouble tackling the kids or shaking them off. No closing speed to put any pressure on.
Goddard - Average. Can stick tackles but can't close down the opposition. Offers a bit the other way but barely enough to counter. Slightly better this year.
Heppell - Average. Always in and under so hard to be too critical. Lacks closing speed but has a fair dinkum crack.
Watson - Average. See Heppell.
Colyer - Bad. Small and outside but offers pace and can afford to have one of these guys.
Zerrett - Good. Can stick a tackle for a little bloke and put some pressure on but struggles to run back at times.
Parish - Good. Has a fair dinkum crack and bust his gut but still a little light weight. Needs another year or two.
Tippa - Good. Has pace and power but still learning craft. Makes up a bit the other way.
Fantasia - Average. Has good closing speed but a little lightweight. Makes up a bit the other way.
Langford - Bad. Lacks intensity and for a guy thats supposed to be quick is very slow without ball. Nothing really the other way.
Green - Average. Reminds me of Alwyn Davey post reco. Legs seem to be moving fast but doesn't have any defensive impact.
Daniher - Bad. Still has too much school boy about him but he's our one big guy that gives the other way.

I think we need to find those 4-6 guys in the team that can add a bit more. We need players to replace Zaka, Stanton, Langford, Green and even Goddard.
Langford is young and can be excused but the others, first two especially, its a bit too late.

Think these player assessments are pretty much on the money.

I rate Colyer but he frustrates me on this front - should be delivering run down tackles on a regular basis but rarely see it.

The other aspect is defensive running in transition....Goddard, Heppell, Stanton, Myers, Kelly, and Watson all struggle - not for effort but just for pure leg speed. Colyer and Zaharakis have running ability but questionable habits. Too much being left to too few....

Need to consider playing McGrath as a mid for defensive balance, at least some weeks depending on match-ups down back.

 

[Vander18]

Glad this is getting a mention. Our biggest issue and it stems from the top.


"
Essendon needs to improve its work rate and team defence after conceding on average almost 60 inside 50s a game in the first four rounds, coach John Worsfold says.

He said on Wednesday coaches would not excuse defensive efforts that were below par.

"Defensively as a team we are miles short of where we want to be," Worsfold said.

Essendon has conceded at least 60 inside 50s in the past two games, and has an inside 50 differential of -44 for 2017.

Worsfold said the match committee was open to the idea of midfielder David Myers returning to the senior side for the Anzac Day clash against Collingwood, but it would be a big call given Myers was yet to play a game after missing 2016 and most of the 2015 season.

"The way he trained today you would say he should be playing in the seniors, but he has missed a lot of footy, obviously, and we have to take that into account when selecting the side," Worsfold said.

"Is it more risk playing at AFL level than VFL level? They are the sort of questions we will ponder?"

He said James Stewart and Aaron Francis were also in the mix having shown good form in the VFL.

Worsfold said his comments after Saturday's 65-point loss to Adelaide about players "hitting the wall" had been made in relation to a couple of individuals rather than the team.

He denied his comments were in relation to a deeper issue around fitness caused by 10 players returning to the game.

"The squad is unbelievably healthy in terms of fitness."


Hope thy are not hollow words.

Interested in your thoughts on the root cause of this issue ant555...

Is it just mindset? Or do we carry, as I suspect, too many players without the requisite foot speed to defend effectively, particularly in transition?

 

[ant555]

Interested in your thoughts on the root cause of this issue ant555...

Is it just mindset? Or do we carry, as I suspect, too many players without the requisite foot speed to defend effectively, particularly in transition?

Both. We have a number of players who are purely offensive with limited team defense. We have blokes like the Captain who did know about defense during the TAC Cup but seem to not work that much on it anymore. To top it off these guys are not quick and if they are slow to think about it then the boat has sailed and the finger pointing begins.

 

[Ambrosia]

In my view team defence is really an attitude you want from a 22 more than it is tactic or structure for a team.

The teams who can get self-less blocking from mids around the contest and defensive running from mids and flankers, which then becomes two way, are the teams that are capable of bridging the talent divide with a superior opponent that has a "see ball, get ball" mentality. This is essentially why GWS remain "getable" and Collingwood putrid. It's what Hawthorn used to put daylight between them and their opponents on grand final days in 2014 and 2015.

The point at which "team defence" requires ever player on the ground to be part of a defensive zone for every moment that a team does not have the ball is that point at which it has gone too far and at which it becomes counter productive. I've heard Dal Santo talk about team defence and the importance of an 18 man zone (as being part of the reason that a tagger is not played) and Mooney saying recently that Matthew Pavlich told him that he thought that the 18 man-zone approach was, to paraphrase, bullshit. So I think that "team defence" certainly has this second meaning and that it should not always be assumed to be a good thing.

The standard AFL group think tends to overcome common sense. The reality is that the grounds, except maybe the MCG, are not wide enough for a 14-16 man zone proactively working to cut off angles to be the sieve that it is assumed to be. There is also an obsession with everything negative which flows from certain decisions and it seems that, quite often, the industry does not factor in the positive.

Ultimately, I find it very difficult to accept that starting Daniher and Fantasia 20 metres from goal would not be worth more than dragging them up the ground to guard space. Assuming that our midfield is working an opposition coach is then staring down losing a game in 10 minutes. The opposition coach then has to work out whether he needs to take more than two players out of his own zone because one-on-one he is still going to be exposed.

At the moment everyone is doing the same thing and I doubt that they even understand why. Teams need groups of 5 and 6 genuine and dedicated forwards and at the other end they need defenders who are able to win one-on-one battles. Everyone is hedging bets always taking extra runners and it continues a cycle of conservative tactical approaches.

You're underestimating the impact of the defender who gets to stand 40m in front of the forward who you've dragged back deep.

You might get a one or two extra goals out the back if you start a forward deep but a good defender will cause carnage with intercept possessions half way up the ground.

The current thinking in the AFL is drag your defender up the ground and beat him back to goal.

 

[BrunoV]

You're underestimating the impact of the defender who gets to stand 40m in front of the forward who you've dragged back deep.

You might get a one or two extra goals out the back if you start a forward deep but a good defender will cause carnage with intercept possessions half way up the ground.

The current thinking in the AFL is drag your defender up the ground and beat him back to goal.

Simply resolved. Don't kick it to him.

Easiest way to negate good intercept defenders is to hit leading targets.

We could also just look at him as Daniher's step ladder.

 

[Howard Moon]

my thoughts are its all in mindset and they way they have been wired

i think they have been trained to play this attacking run and gun style which means their first instinct is to be in an attacking position ready to go

we talk about defensive positioning at stoppages - im convinced they are banking on the 50 50 going our way and are readying to get into attack formation.

Might need a suble re tweak to get the balance right - know when to attack, know whan to defend.

Every player gets the ball around half back and looks directly into the corridor for a kick, its predicatable now the switch to the fat side has made way for the cutting inboard kick into the corridor

 

[Yoda_]

Think these player assessments are pretty much on the money.

I rate Colyer but he frustrates me on this front - should be delivering run down tackles on a regular basis but rarely see it.

The other aspect is defensive running in transition....Goddard, Heppell, Stanton, Myers, Kelly, and Watson all struggle - not for effort but just for pure leg speed. Colyer and Zaharakis have running ability but questionable habits. Too much being left to too few....

Need to consider playing McGrath as a mid for defensive balance, at least some weeks depending on match-ups down back.

Colyer gets caught in no man's land without the ball far to often to be a factor deffensively.

Once transitioned, the ball has invariably pinged right past him

 

[Yoda_]

You're underestimating the impact of the defender who gets to stand 40m in front of the forward who you've dragged back deep.

You might get a one or two extra goals out the back if you start a forward deep but a good defender will cause carnage with intercept possessions half way up the ground.

The current thinking in the AFL is drag your defender up the ground and beat him back to goal.

Precisely why we rate Hurley (2015) better than Alex Rance (2016).

Hurley beat his opponents 1:1, Rance appeared to float across and get 3rd man up possessions

 

[Yoda_]

Our back 6 has done extremely well under the deluge of easy ball constantly served up on a silver platter.

The midfield group as a whole really seems to be lacking those team frst guys like Myers, Hocking, Bird and Howlett.
The subtle blocks and closing down of stoppage exits have seen many games given to them for the unidentified stats like these.

As a whole, it appears we are lacking work rate from everyone. The midfid group are buggered, the forwards trying to play at a high tempo. Is it feasable enough to play this way for 30 weeks in a year?

The forward group seems to lack the nous to read the game. Walla is maybe the exception with his pressure acts through the roof. Hooker, Daniher would be lucky to have 20 tackles between them for the year whilst our (other) small forwards seem to struggle with this tackling caper.

TL; DR?

the midfield need to work harder at gaining first possesion or limit the impact the opposition have with it. The forwards need to defend better whilst the defenders are going ok, winning more 1:1 would be handy

 

[Kakkle]

Precisely why we rate Hurley (2015) better than Alex Rance (2016).

Hurley beat his opponents 1:1, Rance appeared to float across and get 3rd man up possessions

Who is comparing the two though?

 

[Doss]

Kelvin's post is fairly on the mark. Might have been a tad harsh on a couple, but in essence there's still a dearth of two way running and if you don't have that, team defence is going to be shot or at least not very good.

 

[CBombers17]

Think these player assessments are pretty much on the money.

I rate Colyer but he frustrates me on this front - should be delivering run down tackles on a regular basis but rarely see it.

The other aspect is defensive running in transition....Goddard, Heppell, Stanton, Myers, Kelly, and Watson all struggle - not for effort but just for pure leg speed. Colyer and Zaharakis have running ability but questionable habits. Too much being left to too few....

Need to consider playing McGrath as a mid for defensive balance, at least some weeks depending on match-ups down back.

Run down tackles will be interesting this week after this, as we may not get much first ball from the contest. Without naming names theres a couple of players can't recall seeing do this in recent memory. With the amount of minutes played (and therfor opportunity) this area has to be seen as not important to them.

There's a lot of - ready to explode to our attacking end followed by slow u-turns and jogging defensively when we loose the clearance. Some must think multiple tackle efforts are for finals as well.

 

[Aeglos]

Is there an equivalent defensive stat to metres gained? As in, more reliable than tackle counts and one percenters...

Opposition's disposal efficiency wouldn't be a bad start.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Pretty damning reading and something I'm struggling to justify.

Most of the players in the top 30 for tackles are midfielders and most I would consider ball winning midfielders.

We aren't a high clearance team so I would assume it would make sense if we are going to be second to the ball then we would at least be laying tackles.


2017 AFL League Tackles Per Game Leaders (Minimum 2 Games Played)
Rank Player Team Games Tackles for Last Game Average
1 Rory Sloane Adelaide 9.67
2 Thomas Liberatore Western Bulldogs 9.50
3 Sam Menegola Geelong 8.67
4 Brad Ebert Port Adelaide 8.17
5 Taylor Adams Collingwood 7.67
5 Jack Steele St Kilda 7.67
7 Matthew Priddis West Coast 7.50
8 Clayton Oliver Melbourne 7.33
8 Joel Selwood Geelong 7.33
8 Jake Barrett Brisbane 7.33
11 Jackson Macrae Western Bulldogs 7.00
11 Tom Rockliff Brisbane 7.00
11 Adam Treloar Collingwood 7.00
11 Dayne Zorko Brisbane 7.00
11 Brad Crouch Adelaide 7.00
16 Curtly Hampton Adelaide 6.67
16 George Hewett Sydney 6.67
16 Clay Smith Western Bulldogs 6.67
19 Andrew Swallow North Melbourne 6.60
20 Trent Cotchin Richmond 6.50
20 Tom Mitchell Hawthorn 6.50
22 Scott Pendlebury Collingwood 6.33
23 Marcus Bontempelli Western Bulldogs 6.17
23 Edward Curnow Carlton 6.17
23 Alex Neal-Bullen Melbourne 6.17
23 Jack Viney Melbourne 6.17
27 Daniel Hannebery Sydney 6.00
27 Lin Jong Western Bulldogs 6.00
27 Luke Shuey West Coast 6.00
27 Daniel Howe Hawthorn 6.00
31 Gary Jnr Ablett Gold Coast 5.83
31 Luke Parker Sydney 5.83
31 Paul Puopolo Hawthorn 5.83
34 Matthew Kennedy GWS 5.75
35 Charlie Cameron Adelaide 5.67
35 Patrick Cripps Carlton 5.67
35 Bryce Gibbs Carlton 5.67
38 Matthew Kreuzer Carlton 5.60
39 Stewart Crameri Western Bulldogs 5.50
40 Shaun Higgins North Melbourne 5.40
40 Kane Lambert Richmond 5.40
42 Joshua Kelly GWS 5.33
42 Marc Murphy Carlton 5.33
42 Jack Redden West Coast 5.33
42 Liam Shiels Hawthorn 5.33
46 Brady Grey Fremantle 5.25
47 Ben Cunnington North Melbourne 5.20
48 Oliver Wines Port Adelaide 5.17
49 Luke Dahlhaus Western Bulldogs 5.00
49 Nick Vlastuin Richmond 5.00
49 Jordan Foote Sydney 5.00
49 Callum Sinclair Sydney 5.00
49 Jack Steven St Kilda 5.00
49 Robbie Fox Sydney 5.00
49 Jonathon Griffin Fremantle 5.00
56 Patrick Dangerfield Geelong 4.83
56 Mitchell Duncan Geelong 4.83
56 Shane Mumford GWS 4.83
56 Lachie Neale Fremantle 4.83
60 Jamie Cripps West Coast 4.80
60 Jacob Hopper GWS 4.80
62 Tom Campbell Western Bulldogs 4.75
63 Nathan Fyfe Fremantle 4.67
63 Josh P. Kennedy Sydney 4.67
63 David Mundy Fremantle 4.67
63 Mitch Robinson Brisbane 4.67
63 Christopher Mayne Collingwood 4.67
68 Harry Cunningham Sydney 4.60
69 Shaun Grigg Richmond 4.50
69 Dyson Heppell Essendon 4.50
69 Luke McDonald North Melbourne 4.50
69 Zachary Merrett Essendon 4.50
69 Kade Simpson Carlton 4.50
69 Hayden Crozier Fremantle 4.50
69 James Harmes Melbourne 4.50
69 David Swallow Gold Coast 4.50
69 Ben Ainsworth Gold Coast 4.50
78 Lindsay Thomas North Melbourne 4.40
78 Dom Tyson Melbourne 4.40
80 Brendon Goddard Essendon 4.33
80 Jarryd Lyons Gold Coast 4.33
80 Sam Petrevski-Seton Carlton 4.33
80 Dion Prestia Richmond 4.33
80 Steele Sidebottom Collingwood 4.33
80 Jobe Watson Essendon 4.33
80 Jack Ziebell North Melbourne 4.33
80 Matthew Leuenberger Essendon 4.33
88 Jack Lonie St Kilda 4.25
89 Stephen Hill Fremantle 4.20
89 Toby McLean Western Bulldogs 4.20
89 Cyril Rioli Hawthorn 4.20
92 Dylan Grimes Richmond 4.17
92 Nathan Jones Melbourne 4.17
92 Dustin Martin Richmond 4.17
92 Toby Nankervis Richmond 4.17
92 Sebastian Ross St Kilda 4.17
97 Matt Crouch Adelaide 4.00
97 Jeff Garlett Melbourne 4.00
97 Andrew McGrath Essendon 4.00
97 Luke Dunstan St Kilda 4.00
97 Leigh Montagna St Kilda 4.00
97 Tim Taranto GWS 4.00
97 George Horlin-Smith Geelong 4.00
97 Harley Balic Fremantle 4.00
97 Ryan Bastinac Brisbane 4.00
97 Sam Naismith Sydney 4.00
97 Tyrone Vickery Hawthorn 4.00
97 David Armitage St Kilda 4.00
97 Shane Edwards Richmond 4.00
97 Isaac Heeney Sydney 4.00
97 Jay Kennedy-Harris Melbourne 4.00

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

We have a capable forward line now time to beef up the mid field.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Shaun Grigg.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Hard to call Gibbs and Murphy soft any more.

35 Patrick Cripps Carlton 5.67
35 Bryce Gibbs Carlton 5.67
38 Matthew Kreuzer Carlton 5.60
42 Marc Murphy Carlton 5.33

 

[doug85]

Hard to call Gibbs and Murphy soft any more.

35 Patrick Cripps Carlton 5.67
35 Bryce Gibbs Carlton 5.67
38 Matthew Kreuzer Carlton 5.60
42 Marc Murphy Carlton 5.33

I've never thought Murphy was soft.

 

[Killer_Mike]

I've never thought Murphy was soft.

Some do.

I highlighted those players because two are apparently considered soft and outside leaning and the other two are big lumbering guys that don't rely on pace.

I think a big part of the reason we haven't got high tackle counts is because the brand of footy we play.

We play fast footy on the break and if you turn it over as much as we do then your opponents are usually free and its hard to tackle them if that's the case.

I'm not concerned at this stage so much in the brand of football but other teams have similar game plans, using Adelaide as an example and their midfielders still tackle.

Our midfielders are very unaccountable I feel.

 

[doug85]

Some do.

I highlighted those players because two are apparently considered soft and outside leaning and the other two are big lumbering guys that don't rely on pace.

I think a big part of the reason we haven't got high tackle counts is because the brand of footy we play.

We play fast footy on the break and if you turn it over as much as we do then your opponents are usually free and its hard to tackle them if that's the case.

I'm not concerned at this stage so much in the brand of football but other teams have similar game plans, using Adelaide as an example and their midfielders still tackle.

Our midfielders are very unaccountable I feel.

Fair enough.

Murphy softness is a myth just like dale thomas' softness was always a myth.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Fair enough.

Murphy softness is a myth just like dale thomas' softness was always a myth.

I agree.

I think Murphy has been underrated due to being in a shit team.

 

[Drummer_19]

Hard to call Gibbs and Murphy soft any more.

35 Patrick Cripps Carlton 5.67
35 Bryce Gibbs Carlton 5.67
38 Matthew Kreuzer Carlton 5.60
42 Marc Murphy Carlton 5.33

You'd need some sort of tackle opportunity stat, it's probably not through more "wanting" and better tackling that those guys are all bunched together in similar numbers and just more of a reflection of them being around more situations where repeat tackling happens.