Politics Bill 89 - this is a horrifying precedent

[Fryman]

Actually that's incorrect. For most that experience gender dysphoria, it isnt just a phase and any delay or refusal of hormone treatment significantly increases the risk of mental distress, self harm or suicide.
.

On the subject of treating children, however, as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25231780/

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'm glad you're saying it's the authority... Means you don't disagree with it.

Correct. You asked about transgender, which is an umbrella term, and I pointed you towards the DSM-5 reference to gender dysphoria. However, you did not quote DSM-5. Your quote is from Walter Bockting and represents his personal views. Bockting and Zucker were both members of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM. As the foremost expert in the field Zucker was appointed chair of the workgroup but his role was opposed by political activists. The final wording of DSM-5 represents a compromise by a committee, influenced by LGBT activists, but does not preclude Zucker's views.

DSM-5 requires six of eight listed behavioural criterion for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children but importantly, also states that

The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Bockting and other gender affirmatists would argue that a gender dysphoria diagnosis only applies where a child is distressed by their condition. Whereas Zucker might argue it can apply where there is an impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Clinically referred children and adolescents with gender dysphoria commonly show other emotional and behavioral problems — most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and depressive disorders. Autism spectrum disorder is also more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria than in the general population.

Zucker and others take a holistic approach and look at the transgender elements of the child's behaviour alongside the associated mental disorders. Or rather they did until they were shut down. An outcome motivated by politics rather than based on evidence. As DSM-5 states

It is unclear if particular therapeutic approaches to gender dysphoria in children are related to rates of long-term persistence. Extant follow-up samples consisted of children receiving no formal therapeutic intervention or receiving therapeutic interventions of various types, ranging from active efforts to reduce gender dysphoria to a more neutral, "watchful waiting" approach. It is unclear if children "encouraged" or supported to live socially in the desired gender will show higher rates of persistence, since such children have not yet been followed longitudinally in a systematic manner.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Zucker 'cured' over 500 kids of their homosexuality and 'transsexuality'.

Did you make this up?

 

[Gough]

Correct. You asked about transgender, which is an umbrella term, and I pointed you towards the DSM-5 reference to gender dysphoria. However, you did not quote DSM-5. Your quote is from Walter Bockting and represents his personal views. Bockting and Zucker were both members of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM. As the foremost expert in the field Zucker was appointed chair of the workgroup but his role was opposed by political activists. The final wording of DSM-5 represents a compromise by a committee, influenced by LGBT activists, but does not preclude Zucker's views.

DSM-5 requires six of eight listed behavioural criterion for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children but importantly, also states that



Bockting and other gender affirmatists would argue that a gender dysphoria diagnosis only applies where a child is distressed by their condition. Whereas Zucker might argue it can apply where there is an impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Clinically referred children and adolescents with gender dysphoria commonly show other emotional and behavioral problems — most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and depressive disorders. Autism spectrum disorder is also more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria than in the general population.

Zucker and others take a holistic approach and look at the transgender elements of the child's behaviour alongside the associated mental disorders. Or rather they did until they were shut down. An outcome motivated by politics rather than based on evidence. As DSM-5 states

Why are you so desperate to discredit a group of people that chances are you'll never have anything to do with ever? Do you not like them, are you unsettled by them? I'm curious.

 

[Fryman]

Why are you so desperate to discredit a group of people that chances are you'll never have anything to do with ever? Do you not like them, are you unsettled by them? I'm curious.

Why the appeal to emotion?
Argue the substance of his post rather than make it personal.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Rule 1. We encourage rigorous debate as long as it stays on topic and subject. If you attack the man then you risk infraction; when responding, attack the argument not the poster.

 

[Gough]

As a gay man my interest is seeing that trans people don't suffer the same sort of discrimination that we historically faced. Why are you so interested in the topic, what's your motivation here? I'm not playing the man, just interested as to why people argue the point.

 

[Fryman]

As a gay man my interest is seeing that trans people don't suffer the same sort of discrimination that we historically faced. Why are you so interested in the topic, what's your motivation here? I'm not playing the man, just interested as to why people argue the point.

The science on transgender not being a mental illness is far from settled and neither is the definitive treatment, especially in children.

Gender dysphoria affects a very small number of children and as has been shown the majority will outgrow it.

The trans movement is a very vocal and aggressive group as a whole. They are very good at demonising anyone who recommends a cautious approach when dealing with the issue.

 

[Gough]

The science on transgender not being a mental illness is far from settled and neither is the definitive treatment, especially in children.

Gender dysphoria affects a very small number of children and as has been shown the majority will outgrow it.

The trans movement is a very vocal and aggressive group as a whole. They are very good at demonising anyone who recommends a cautious approach when dealing with the issue.

And how does that effect you?

 

[cannot]

And how does that effect you?

hes got as much right to an opinion as you do

 

[DemonTim]

hes got as much right to an opinion as you do

Wasn't the question, and doesn't actually respond to it.

You realise "asking why you hold a view" is not the same as silencing someone?

You're very bi polar in your posting.

 

[Gough]

hes got as much right to an opinion as you do

Totally agree, just curious as to why issues of gender, and sexuality causes such strong feelings in people. I've explained my motivations, I'm wondering if others can explain their's.

 

[Fryman]

Totally agree, just curious as to why issues of gender, and sexuality causes such strong feelings in people. I've explained my motivations, I'm wondering if others can explain their's.

I personally find the topic interesting. I have no skin in the game, so to speak. Trans issues have certainly become the cause celebre over the last few years.

I am interested though, do you find it curious as to how the transgender community became part of the gay rights movement?
They are clearly separate issues, one is sexual orientation and the other is about gender identity.
Do you feel like they have co-opted your movement (which I fully support, just in case you worried about my motivation) into arguing for things that you haven't traditionally stood for?

 

[Gough]

I do find it odd that the trans movement is enmeshed with gay movement to a degree. A transgender man in relationship with a woman is a straight relationship as far as I'm concerned. That said I think that the fight for trans rights very much mirrors the fight for gay rights, so I can understand why it makes sense that they are broadly collectivised.

 

[Fryman]

I do find it odd that the trans movement is enmeshed with gay movement to a degree. A transgender man in relationship with a woman is a straight relationship as far as I'm concerned. That said I think that the fight for trans rights very much mirrors the fight for gay rights, so I can understand why it makes sense that they are broadly collectivised.

I appreciate the honesty.

I am completely on board with adults experiencing GID seeking any form of treatment they deem necessary, whether it's full transitioning, hormone treatment, etc.

Where I personally get a little apprehensive is when the issue of treating minors comes up. I understand that the earlier you start to transition the better you pass and that is better for long term mental health, but if most of the kids outgrow the GID then how do we know which ones to put on hormone blockers (which can have horrible long term effects) and which ones we shouldn't.

 

[CM86]

Correct. You asked about transgender, which is an umbrella term, and I pointed you towards the DSM-5 reference to gender dysphoria. However, you did not quote DSM-5. Your quote is from Walter Bockting and represents his personal views. Bockting and Zucker were both members of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM. As the foremost expert in the field Zucker was appointed chair of the workgroup but his role was opposed by political activists. The final wording of DSM-5 represents a compromise by a committee, influenced by LGBT activists, but does not preclude Zucker's views.

DSM-5 requires six of eight listed behavioural criterion for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children but importantly, also states that



Bockting and other gender affirmatists would argue that a gender dysphoria diagnosis only applies where a child is distressed by their condition. Whereas Zucker might argue it can apply where there is an impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Clinically referred children and adolescents with gender dysphoria commonly show other emotional and behavioral problems — most commonly, anxiety, disruptive and impulse-control, and depressive disorders. Autism spectrum disorder is also more prevalent in clinically referred children with gender dysphoria than in the general population.

Zucker and others take a holistic approach and look at the transgender elements of the child's behaviour alongside the associated mental disorders. Or rather they did until they were shut down. An outcome motivated by politics rather than based on evidence. As DSM-5 states

The DSM-5 is a diagnostic tool for the APA...
It isn't just some random opinion... it's the official explanation by the APA, who published the DSM-5... And the reason they've needed to clarify it this way, is probably because people like you keep trying to use it as evidence for something that it isn't...

Zucker wasn't let go because a handful of activists wrote a petition...



You put up what you considered the authority on the matter... I've shown you that they agree that transsexualism isn't a disorder... and you still refuse to accept it.
Now it's some kind of conspiracy...



As I explained to you earlier, (and you dismissed as simplistic and unsubstantiated), there are mental disorders around being transsexual, like anxiety and depression, that are caused due to being transsexual in our society... but not caused by being transsexual in itself.
And this is the point you are refusing to accept.

Transsexualism isn't a mental disorder... Even the authority you chose backs me up on this.

Did you make this up?

Good of you to follow this up, after ignoring heaps of my other points.

I thought I read him admit to 'curing' over 500 homosexuals and transsexuals. But I haven't been able to find it again.
I've only been able to find other people talking about him doing it, and him denying it. Not enough evidence, so I'll apologise for saying that, and I take it back.
The other bit was people claiming that his intervention therapy was similar to the homosexual intervention therapy that was once considered viable.

 

[CM86]

On the subject of treating children, however, as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25231780/

That's the number of children who were referred to clinics for assessment. It isn't saying they were diagnosed as transsexual.
And this could have been because they were referred by people who didn't know if the child was homosexual or transsexual.
So I don't think that percentage is a fair number to use.

"follow-up studies of prepubertal children (mainly boys) who were referred to clinics for assessment of gender dysphoria, the dysphoria persisted into adulthood for only 6-23% of children (Cohen-Kettenis, 2001; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). Boys in these studies were more likely to identify as gay in adulthood than as transgender (Green, 1987; Money & Russo, 1979; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). "

​

On the other hand, for adolescent children who were diagnosed with "gender dysphoria":

"in a follow-up study of 70 adolescents who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria and given puberty suppressing hormones, all continued with the actual sex reassignment, beginning with feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy (de Vries, Steensma, Doreleijers, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2010).​

 

[CM86]

Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People The World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Social Transition in Early Childhood Some children state that they want to make a social transition to a different gender role long before puberty. For some children, this may reflect an expression of their gender identity. For others, this could be motivated by other forces. Families vary in the extent to which they allow their young children to make a social transition to another gender role. Social transitions in early childhood do occur within some families with early success. This is a controversial issue, and divergent views are held by health professionals. The current evidence base is insufficient to predict the long-term outcomes of completing a gender role transition during early childhood. Outcomes research with children who completed early social transitions would greatly inform future clinical recommendations.

Mental health professionals can help families to make decisions regarding the timing and process of any gender role changes for their young children. They should provide information and help parents to weigh the potential benefits and challenges of particular choices. Relevant in this respect are the previously described relatively low persistence rates of childhood gender dysphoria (Drummond et al., 2008; Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008). A change back to the original gender role can be highly distressing and even result in postponement of this second social transition on the child’s part (Steensma & Cohen-Kettenis, 2011). For reasons such as these, parents may want to present this role change as an exploration of living in another gender role, rather than an irreversible situation. Mental health professionals can assist parents in identifying potential inbetween solutions or compromises (e.g., only when on vacation). It is also important that parents explicitly let the child know that there is a way back.

Regardless of a family’s decisions regarding transition (timing, extent), professionals should counsel and support them as they work through the options and implications. If parents do not allow their young child to make a gender role transition, they may need counseling to assist them with meeting their child’s needs in a sensitive and nurturing way, ensuring that the child has ample possibilities to explore gender feelings and behavior in a safe environment. If parents do allow their young child to make a gender role transition, they may need counseling to facilitate a positive experience for their child. For example, they may need support in using correct pronouns, maintaining a safe and supportive environment for their transitioning child (e.g., in school, peer group settings), and communicating with other people in their child’s life. In either case, as a child nears puberty, further assessment may be needed as options for physical interventions become relevant.
​

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_co.../Standards of Care V7 - 2011 WPATH (2)(1).pdf

This gives a good idea of what is actually done to help a child with gender dysphoria.
Just to show that it isn't controversial, and that they are taking everything into consideration.
This was released in 2011, and there is even more understanding now. But it gives a good idea of the situation, and should hope to ease 'fears' or 'concerns' some people have.

 

[WeetBixKid]

As I explained to you earlier, (and you dismissed as simplistic and unsubstantiated), there are mental disorders around being transsexual, like anxiety and depression, that are caused due to being transsexual in our society... but not caused by being transsexual in itself.
And this is the point you are refusing to accept.

I don't accept it. Plenty of people don't. Everything's far too interconnected to claim that whatever problems come from being trans stem solely from society's attitude toward them. Or vice versa.

 

[CM86]

I don't accept it. Plenty of people don't. Everything's far too interconnected to claim that whatever problems come from being trans stem solely from society's treatment of them. Or vice versa.

Not my claim.

The point is, being transsexual, in and of itself, is not a mental illness...

 

[WeetBixKid]

Not my claim.

The point is, being transsexual, in and of itself, is not a mental illness...

It's semantics though isn't it? Kicking the can down the road.

The line that it's only a disorder if it causes distress is a joke.

having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder. Rather, the distress that some transgender people may experience at some point in their lives may be of clinical concern and can be alleviated through clinical management

I mean, has anyone *ever* identified as a gender other than the one that aligns with their biology & *not* felt distressed? With no treatment? It's a totally redundant distinction, & probably a politically motivated one. Unless there's a sizable group of trans folk happily identifying as they like without any psychological intervention/drugs/surgery that I'm not aware of.

 

[CM86]

It's semantics though isn't it? Kicking the can down the road.

The line that it's only a disorder if it causes distress is a joke.


I mean, has anyone *ever* identified as a gender other than the one that aligns with their biology & *not* felt distressed? With no treatment? It's a totally redundant distinction, & probably a politically motivated one. Unless there's a sizable group of trans folk happily identifying as they like without any psychological intervention/drugs/surgery that I'm not aware of.

No, it's an important distinction.

Transsexualism isn't something wrong, that needs to be fixed. We don't need to help transsexuals overcome their transsexuality...

Anxiety, for example, is an illness that we try to 'cure'.

So no, it isn't semantics or a joke.


I've not read of any homosexual that has never had any problems with anxiety or depression... so would you call being homosexual a mental illness? Or do you accept that homosexuality is not a mental illness?

 

[WeetBixKid]

No, it's an important distinction.

Transsexualism isn't something wrong, that needs to be fixed. We don't need to help transsexuals overcome their transsexuality...

Anxiety, for example, is an illness that we try to 'cure'.

So no, it isn't semantics or a joke.


I've not read of any homosexual that has never had any problems with anxiety or depression... so would you call being homosexual a mental illness? Or do you accept that homosexuality is not a mental illness?

If transsexuality is (nearly always?) associated with some kind of distress when left untreated, something should be done. The question is what. Whether we call it a disorder or not is just political-- it doesn't actually help inform us on how to deal with it. We're still left with the same controversy (to transition or not)

Re: Gays, for the most part they're in a position where just being left alone to pursue their own happiness is enough. Society doesn't have to change dramatically for them to function and have loving relationships, a healthy & realistic identity, purpose etc so it's not really a problem.

Being trans is difficult, because to achieve what they want requires society to actively indulge them & their idealized identity 24/7. This is fine if you transition convincingly. If you can't (like most?), society isn't going to play pretend, & you are probably going to have all sorts of problems that simply can't be resolved unless you come to terms with reality, imperfect as it is.

 

[CM86]

Sounds like you're taking a normative approach. i.e you don't find it immoral, so it shouldn't have to be 'fixed'.

If transsexuality is (nearly always?) associated with some kind of distress when left untreated, something should be done. The question is what. Whether we call it a disorder or not is just political-- it doesn't actually help inform us on how to deal with it. We're still left with the same controversy (to transition or not)

Re: Gays, for the most part they're in a position where just being left alone to pursue their own happiness is enough. Society doesn't have to change dramatically for them to function and have loving relationships, a healthy & realistic identity, purpose etc so it's not really a problem.

Being trans is difficult, because to achieve what they want requires society to actively indulge them & their idealized identity 24/7. This is fine if you transition convincingly. If you can't (like most?), society isn't going to play pretend, & you are probably going to have all sorts of problems that simply can't be resolved unless you come to terms with reality, imperfect as it is.

I don't even know how to reply to this.

Yeah... accepting transsexuals into society is indulgence.

 

[WeetBixKid]

I don't even know how to reply to this.

Yeah... accepting transsexuals into society is indulgence.

It's not acceptance though. It's wanting to be treated as they *wish* they were -- which is so crazy & unrealistic it makes my head spin because it requires both the individual and society to delude themselves/itself.

You only get the beautiful woman treatment if you actually pass as a beautiful woman. You only get the strong man treatment if you actually pass as a strong man. That's just reality, it's how the world works. If you don't pass, & your happiness is dependent on society treating you based on an identity that only exists in your mind, the outcome is not going to be good. So if there's a chance for the person to grow out of their idealism & develop a realistic identity that they can be proud of and happy with don't you think it should be explored?