Politics Has Australia's involvement in the "war on terror" been worthwhile?

[cannot]

Is that real? Because it's terrifying.

i think it is (hard to tell these days)

scared the willies out of me

https://www.wired.com/2002/11/londons-privacy-falling-down/

 

[JackOutback]

i think it is (hard to tell these days)

scared the willies out of me

I agree, you never know what's been photoshopped these days. Looks so much like a cover of 1984 that I still have some doubts.

Also, when has CCTV ever stepped up and stopped an assault or murder before it happened? While it has its occasional uses, people promoting it as some sort of crime prevention tool are laughably naive.

 

[cannot]

I agree, you never know what's been photoshopped these days. Looks so much like a cover of 1984 that I still have some doubts.

Also, when has CCTV ever stepped up and stopped an assault or murder before it happened? While it has its occasional uses, people promoting it as some sort of crime prevention tool are laughably naive.

"I saw the bloody thing, and it boggled my mind, the sheer audacity of it," said de Havilland, who runs a blog on libertarian issues. "Basically what they're saying is that we're watching you and you should be happy about it."

De Havilland's observations about the poster have generated a lively discussion.

The posters had a similar effect on Simon Davies, the head of Privacy International, who also lives in London.

"I thought it was a powerful piece of political satire from a disruptive citizen's group, but then it dawned on me that they were real," Davies said. "It's acutely disturbing."

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Afghanistan one of the most advanced nations in the world? Really? Is this true?

Disclaimer: no expert, just picked up bits and and there/

Pre the Soviet invasion, that's probably a stretch. Much of it was wealthier than other nations in the vicinty, relatively advanced. Not "first world" as "the west" was then called. But far from "third world" either.
It was probably roughly (in comparitive terms, obviously technology has moved on a lot and what was "developed" then is not so now) where Malaysia is now. Either at the "developed" end of "developing", or the "developing" end of "developed" but with systemic poverty in many areas. It never really had a strong central government though, from my understanding at least.

For nearly 40 years now, however, it has been torn apart from outside and within. Part of the within was around back in the day, its not a "nation" as we tend to think of it. It was always very regional, perhaps tribal, in many ways. Other parts of the within have been made worse by outside influences.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Melbourne barrister and human rights advocate Julian Burnside has warned politicians that tightening bail and parole laws at the expense of a right to justice and freedoms “is to hand victory to terrorists”.

Speaking to Guardian Australia from Indonesia, Burnside expressed concern about the bail and parole amendments, and said he would need to see the finer details.

“That said, a presumption against bail is a bad idea: it means jail before a finding of guilt.

“As for parole, the politicians should leave that to judges and the parole board. Moves like this are a reminder of the old idea that ‘We will take your freedom in order to protect your liberties’.

“To abandon ancient freedoms is to hand victory to terrorists.”

The Melbourne criminal defence lawyer Rob Stary, who has handled some of Australia’s high-profile terrorism cases, said “the devil will be in the detail” of the changes – the government is yet to release the details of how the measures would work or be rolled out across the country.

But he said “less than a handful” of those accused of terrorism had ever received bail anyway.

“And of those that do get bail, they usually only had the most minor of roles in the crime,” he said.

“The bigger point, and I think this has been lost in the crude, populist, law and order backlash, is that when you have offenders who are almost invariably young, what you want to do is get them to accept responsibility for their conduct and their wrongdoing so you can critically and immediately begin a process of de-radicalisation.

“An offender only participates in these mandated programs once they’re convicted.

“There is a real risk once laws are tightened and we have a punitive approach that people will just roll the dice and plead not guilty. I’m certain this will start to happen in terrorism offences. If they feel they are being given disproportionate sentences you’re deterring people from taking responsibility because they’re not going to plead guilty.”

Stary said a far greater number of people were killed and seriously injured every year by domestic violence and drug offenders out on parole.

“Do we say men should be indefinitely detained? We don’t have that same disproportionate response, we instead put them through behaviour change programs or drug rehabilitation programs, whether they plead guilty or not.

“Terrorism in Australia, fortunately, is responsible for a smaller number of people being harmed. But it is always in dramatic and catastrophic circumstances, and that puts fear into the hearts of the community and stops people from putting things into perspective.”

He said changes to parole and bail laws risked leading to higher incarceration rates, and that although the US had the highest incarceration rates in the world, it did not make it a safer society.

“Studies and evidence from around the world show that punitive approaches are counterproductive,” Stary said.

“Rehabilitation and looking at the justice system as a whole, not just parole and bail, is not a leftwing approach. It’s an approach that protects the community.”

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ial-of-bail-and-parole?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[chelseacarlton]

Disclaimer: no expert, just picked up bits and and there/

Pre the Soviet invasion, that's probably a stretch. Much of it was wealthier than other nations in the vicinty, relatively advanced. Not "first world" as "the west" was then called. But far from "third world" either.
It was probably roughly (in comparitive terms, obviously technology has moved on a lot and what was "developed" then is not so now) where Malaysia is now. Either at the "developed" end of "developing", or the "developing" end of "developed" but with systemic poverty in many areas. It never really had a strong central government though, from my understanding at least.

For nearly 40 years now, however, it has been torn apart from outside and within. Part of the within was around back in the day, its not a "nation" as we tend to think of it. It was always very regional, perhaps tribal, in many ways. Other parts of the within have been made worse by outside influences.

Heroin is a powerful product.

 

[cannot]

Victoria lawfully can hold 14 year olds two weeks, without charge.

didnt 1944 germany have a similar law in place?

... rights are overrated anyway. Whats really important is Ron The Bear being able to sleep at night and not being scared of the reds under the bed, i mean muslims

 

[cannot]

Heroin is a powerful product.

good money in the heroin trade

 

[Procrastinator35]

good money in the heroin trade

Higher profit margins than arms sales in fact.....No surprise about the U.S's quick-fire invasion of Afghanistan immediately following 9/11....It was all about re-instating the poppy-crop that the Taliban had all but destroyed in the decade prior.....Now the world is flooded with the stuff, thanks to the good ol U.S of A.

Suffice to say that both the C.I.A & F.B.I are doing very nicely indeed from it, thank you very much....You can skip all the loop-holes when you have military bases (Delivery drop-off points, with no declarations or inspections); all over the world.

... rights are overrated anyway. Whats really important is Ron The Bear being able to sleep at night and not being scared of the reds under the bed, i mean muslims

I wonder if Ron keeps his auxiliary Teddy Bear under the Bed & nearby handy....Just in case.....Hibernation always remains a last option

 

[Snake_Baker]

Judiciary lays a smack down on federal pollies

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...isters.pdf?token=1q3l3bH2IE21H0yHcMT+hYj+L4U=

 

[Snake_Baker]

Further dilution of civil liberties:

Police Who Pre-Emptively Kill Suspected Terrorists Will Be Protected

The NSW government is set to introduce new laws by the end of this month which give police immunity for pre-emptively shooting a person they suspect of terrorism, even if that person does not pose an imminent threat to others.

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian announced that she will support all 45 of the recommendations from the coronial inquest report into the Lindt Café siege, and will prioritise those which give police more powers and protect them from civil and criminal prosecution.

New South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller acknowledged that police already have the power to “shoot-to-kill” people they suspect of terrorism in situations analogous to the recent London attacks – where they pose an imminent threat to public safety.

However, he feels that situations like the Lindt Cafe siege are a grey area, as it was unclear whether Man Haron Monis was going to act upon his threats.

http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.co...-kill-suspected-terrorists-will-be-protected/

 

[Pie eyed]

No it has not. I made this point to everyone I knew the day we entered it.

Equally as successful as our involvement in the War on Drugs.
Seems waging war on inanimate objects and undefined nouns is doomed to always fail.
Especially when you only wage war on specific "Terror", ignoring that other "terror" closer to home, like institutional child abuse, or inconvenient "terror" like Russian, Chinese and even Australian human rights violations.




Next I hope we wage war on stupidity and right wing fukwits.

 

[cannot]

Further dilution of civil liberties:

Police Who Pre-Emptively Kill Suspected Terrorists Will Be Protected

The NSW government is set to introduce new laws by the end of this month which give police immunity for pre-emptively shooting a person they suspect of terrorism, even if that person does not pose an imminent threat to others.

jesus christ

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Afghanistan one of the most advanced nations in the world? Really? Is this true?

They weren't doin' too bad in the Hotaki and Durrani days

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Come on, the War on Terror is a perfect self-perpetuating saga

 

[blackcat]

Honestly, I couldn't give a **** about any missing girls in Nigeria or any other country for that matter' when it comes to forfeiting the safety and civil rights of me and mine to religious nutters.

The whole thing has been a complete ****ing racket!

terror is not even spelled correct. what is the israeli phonetic spelling?

so when the europe red domestic elements in various tiny groups set off bombs in the 70s, that was not terror. when the Irish set bombs off in England, not terror, when the American domestic leftists and unabomber, set off bombs in the 70s and 80s and 90s, not terror. When the CIA funded groups in South America to overturn governments, not terror.

the term has been defused of any definition, all it means is "them" doing something to "us", usually them, is brown people or muslims, ofcourse they use the asymmetric means at their disposal, like David Ben Gurion said, if I was a palestinian i would be a terrorist (not the reading/interpretation of all palestinians are terrorists, but, I would use means at my disposal to resist and this is what we discern as terrorism<terrorist>). atleast I think it was DBG, or atleast, another PM of the same nation.

the term "terrorist State" has never entered the lexicon, pretty obvious why, the fourth estate is another establishment enterprise, they are gatekeepers. The Yanks have killed for more every day than what occurred to them on S11. Also, like Steven Pinker asserts, we are a far less violent epoch than time that has come before, and America contribute greatly to this relative time of peace and prosperity, that is me, my words, not Pinker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature

 

[Snake_Baker]

I get your point bc, but I have had a gut full of my freedoms being eroded for this bullshit.

 

[blackcat]

I get your point bc, but I have had a gut full of my freedoms being eroded for this bullshit.

the media act in symbiosis, this is their bread and butter.

they need to report on something. who is peter gordon's former partner, Stary, Rob Stary, there was an article either in Fairfax or Morry Schwartz Saturday Paper on Stary about 6 weeks back. He first came to prominence with the guy who wears his bald pate back in a ponytail, gees i got a great memory, Mamdouh Habib, I could remember Stary before that, but the Habib case put him on national prominence.

Habib looks like the Hedgehog Ron Jeremy, if he was muslim, pretty bald, had a ponytail, and smoke weed thru a hookah in a jazz bar in montreal. and habib had 8 inches.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Rob is a very good man.

Definitely not in the business of selling out his clients, like a few others I could mention.

He was once being groomed by the Labor Party for high office, but he told them to jam it when they sold out on law and order issues to engage in cowboy politics with the liberals.

Spends most of his time doing pro bono human rights cases these days.

 

[blackcat]

Rob is a very good man.

Definitely not in the business of selling out his clients, like a few others I could mention.

He was once being groomed by the Labor Party for high office, but he told them to jam it when they sold out on law and order issues to engage in cowboy politics with the liberals.

Spends most of his time doing pro bono human rights cases these days.

the article I read about 6 weeks back, he has about 5 shopfronts for his firm, but he still does the gumshoe work, and the firm wont be billing clients like Freehills and Mallesons, his clients have no money. But he would still be raking it in, more than the average affal player.

however, like you said, he did not stay with Slaters, or go to Maurice Blackburn Cashman and earn major dollars, like Peter Gordon or Feeney/Liberty ValanceSanger at Mauries. Gordon was CEO or Chair of Slaters no? when they float, the eponymous firm mere coincidence, Gordon was also from Footscray with Stary, just a coincidence wrt the name of Slater and Gordon, and they all took big money like Andersen ConsultingAccenture with a public float, and Contra Mundum and I have spoken how this is antithetical to the law, going public with an IPO


can someone find a link for the original Guy Rundle Liberty Sanger Feeney article that Crikey pulled. awesome troll, manifestly awesome! sometimes you can find those articles copied and pasted on Facebook, so you dont have to find an article that you cant find cos it was pulled. Its prolly on Facebook, someone can find it. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...d=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Liberty+Sanger+Guy+Rundle

 

[blackcat]

Further dilution of civil liberties:

Police Who Pre-Emptively Kill Suspected Terrorists Will Be Protected

The NSW government is set to introduce new laws by the end of this month which give police immunity for pre-emptively shooting a person they suspect of terrorism, even if that person does not pose an imminent threat to others.

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian announced that she will support all 45 of the recommendations from the coronial inquest report into the Lindt Café siege, and will prioritise those which give police more powers and protect them from civil and criminal prosecution.

New South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller acknowledged that police already have the power to “shoot-to-kill” people they suspect of terrorism in situations analogous to the recent London attacks – where they pose an imminent threat to public safety.

However, he feels that situations like the Lindt Cafe siege are a grey area, as it was unclear whether Man Haron Monis was going to act upon his threats.

http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.co...-kill-suspected-terrorists-will-be-protected/

pre-crime film with tom cruise.... tho in its defence, it had sam morton, i am not sure, but i think her coming out party was morgan callar, or some spelling like that, she can act blanchett under a table

 

[Snake_Baker]

Gordon was CEO or Chair of Slaters no?

He was the "Gordon" in Slater & Gordon. Bailed out at the right time. He has plenty $$$.

Gordon was also from Footscray with Stary, just a coincidence wrt the name of Slater and Gordon....

Rob came from the Braybrook commission housing area and his mother made ends meet working as a cashier at Coles.

A boy from the hood, made good, and never forgot his roots.

Gordon & Stary go back to the time when Gillard worked with them and used to date union reps.

I would march in to hell with the man.

 

[Benny78]

Not really. We get nothing back from America.

That said if we're starting wars with the middle east. Then it might've been good in hindsight to ban their people from coming over here, just incase it bites us in the arse later..

Either ban all form of muslim migration from the date of our first involvement over there, or don't go to war. Not very smart, and not very considerate to citizens in Australia.

 

[blackcat]

Not really. We get nothing back from America.

That said if we're starting wars with the middle east. Then it might've been good in hindsight to ban their people from coming over here, just incase it bites us in the arse later..

Either ban all form of muslim migration from the date of our first involvement over there, or don't go to war. Not very smart, and not very considerate to citizens in Australia.

think about it again, thru a meta lens;
...is it better we are in the yankee orbit, than NOT in the yankee orbit...

...We kinda get heads up, being part of 5 Eyes intelligence...

Now, I have only given(some of) the positives***. a manifest flaw, Howabout if we get in the middle of a hot war with the yankees and the sinos. We would be better served as Switzerland then. or we can move, those liquid enough to get up and bid voyage.

It helps us being with the international leadership, even if PJK says we are lickspittle



this is just my devil's advocate, my personal opinion my or may not*[sic] be different

 

[Reppie]

Fake war on terror in full swing.

Pity the real terrorists won't be arrested.