Autopsy Heartbreaking loss to St Kilda

[Outshined]

That's the thing though isn't it. That was Ross Lyon's choice to have that situation. He could have played Taberner in that time. Or he could have tried one of our many key defenders as a 2nd key forward. From memory we tried Silvagni there once and never again. We could have tried Dawson, Johnson, Faulks etc but never did. He chose to just go with nobody and hope that a key forward fell in our lap, and now we're in the situation we're in now.

I agree to an extent. As I said, Lyon holds blame for being inflexible and resistant to change. At the same time though, look at those names you're saying...Taberner, Dawson, Silvagni. That represents a huge failure in drafting forwards.

I can see why Lyon tried to win games with defense rather than offense when the alternative was to use Peter Faulks. Especially when he often succeeded in 2012-2015.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

Can't blame Ross or the recruiters 100% for not developing a forward. We tried throwing the cheque book at every KPF out of contract, we traded/drafted Jack Anthony, Scott Gumbleton, Tanner Smith, Michael Apeness, Uebergang, Zac Clarke (although a ruckman, would've been used forward if fit). We've just been s**t out of luck with injuries.

 

[meima]

I agree to an extent. As I said, Lyon holds blame for being inflexible and resistant to change. At the same time though, look at those names you're saying...Taberner, Dawson, Silvagni. That represents a huge failure in drafting forwards.

I can see why Lyon tried to win games with defense rather than offense when the alternative was to use Peter Faulks. Especially when he often succeeded in 2012-2015.

I think Ross do take some risk this year , when blakely incident come out he could had go with ibbo or sutty but instead he pick Ethan .

 

[ydraw]

I agree to an extent. As I said, Lyon holds blame for being inflexible and resistant to change. At the same time though, look at those names you're saying...Taberner, Dawson, Silvagni. That represents a huge failure in drafting forwards.

Silvagni has proved to be an AFL quality key defender since he left the club. We could have played him in defense and moved one of our existing key defenders into the forward line as an experiment. We never even tried.

 

[meima]

Can't blame Ross or the recruiters 100% for not developing a forward. We tried throwing the cheque book at every KPF out of contract, we traded/drafted Jack Anthony, Scott Gumbleton, Tanner Smith, Michael Apeness, Uebergang, Zac Clarke (although a ruckman, would've been used forward if fit). We've just been s**t out of luck with injuries.

Tanner smith and uber both more of KPD then KPF , but I agree not able to manage players and injuries is a big part of this as well . Maybe explore more with players outside of best 18 instead of keep playing them until one of them is injured.

 

[dockerfemme]

Silvagni has proved to be an AFL quality key defender since he left the club. We could have played him in defense and moved one of our existing key defenders into the forward line as an experiment. We never even tried.

I agree with you that a few more changes to our player utilisation and game plan should have been tried. However Silvagni was hardly ever fit ( I think he is not fit now) and any experiments involving him would have been short lived.

Something that has not been mentioned in this discussion is that I think over the last 5 years the list was held too static. Silvagni, Griff, de Boer, Barlow (if he was not going to be used in the guts), Mzungu, Clancee, could all have had some value at the trade table and were somewhat surplus to requirements. Turning over 2-3 of these players, pushing up the draft order a bit and bringing younger players could have refreshed things with minimal downside.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

I agree with you that a few more changes to our player utilisation and game plan should have been tried. However Silvagni was hardly ever fit ( I think he is not fit now) and any experiments involving him would have been short lived.

Something that has not been mentioned in this discussion is that I think over the last 5 years the list was held too static. Silvagni, Griff, de Boer, Barlow (if he was not going to be used in the guts), Mzungu, Clancee, could all have had some value at the trade table and were somewhat surplus to requirements. Turning over 2-3 of these players, pushing up the draft order a bit and bringing younger players could have refreshed things with minimal downside.

I think that's a bit easy to say in hindsight. We were right up there contending 2013-2015 and nobody could really forsee that we'd drop so far. De Boer, Clancee, Barlow, Silvagni were mid 20's and at the age they should've been coming into their prime. I see it that the club made the most of their draft picks that were consistently in the 13+ range for our first rounders.

 

[sherrif]

Silvagni has proved to be an AFL quality key defender since he left the club. We could have played him in defense and moved one of our existing key defenders into the forward line as an experiment. We never even tried.

Silvagni was tried as a forward for half a season or so. Ditto Alex Pearce for six or so rounds.

Cox has a very good chance to be part of the solution to our forward marking woes too. Has been super impressive first two games. Love how he has lead to link up play.

 

[Joao]

Fans of all clubs seem to have a real problem accepting that the players just aren't good enough sometimes. There are 18 clubs, the chances that your team has the best 18/22/40 is low at any point in time. Leigh Matthews said himself that talent wins flags. If you don't have it, you won't win.

It is easier to just think, 'well clearly all of these players I am heavily emotionally invested in are obviously gun, must be the coach or medicos or recruiters etc'. It's just a cop out for accepting that your team wasn't good enough. Obviously all of those roles effect the performance but they can't make average players better than good players. It's not like Clarko has finished top 4 for 13 seasons straight. When his players were inexperienced the team was ordinary. Hawthorn had a LOT of very good to brilliant players in the last decade. That is why they won so much. Clarko clearly knows how to use them but if you gave him Freos 2013 squad and told them to play his way it would be turnover central.

Ross isn't perfect but if you haven't noticed the significant changes in his methods this year, you never will and you might as well sit out following Fremantle until 2020.

 

[ydraw]

Fans of all clubs seem to have a real problem accepting that the players just aren't good enough sometimes. There are 18 clubs, the chances that your team has the best 18/22/40 is low at any point in time. Leigh Matthews said himself that talent wins flags. If you don't have it, you won't win.

It is easier to just think, 'well clearly all of these players I am heavily emotionally invested in are obviously gun, must be the coach or medicos or recruiters etc'. It's just a cop out for accepting that your team wasn't good enough. Obviously all of those roles effect the performance but they can't make average players better than good players. It's not like Clarko has finished top 4 for 13 seasons straight. When his players were inexperienced the team was ordinary. Hawthorn had a LOT of very good to brilliant players in the last decade. That is why they won so much. Clarko clearly knows how to use them but if you gave him Freos 2013 squad and told them to play his way it would be turnover central..

Clarko's been happy to play lesser lights like Spangher, Scheonmakers, Tim O'Brien etc in the forward line when his first choice forwards have not been available because he recognises the value of forward structure.

We've simply played no forward line for 5 years because we didn't have anyone as good as Pavlich to pick.

Nobody is saying any of the above mentioned players were guns. I'm saying we should have played them anyway, because structure is important and we have none.

Sometimes you have to go in with an average player in a position because you need to play someone in that position. Ross Lyon has instead chosen to play nobody in that position and as a result we've been one of the lowest scoring teams in the league for his entire tenure at the club.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Silvagni was tried as a forward for half a season or so. Ditto Alex Pearce for six or so rounds.

Yeah that's some serious revisionist history s**t to be saying we didn't try to work Silvagni into the team. His few games as a KPF were not great, ditto Alex Pearce. Never mind he was injured 50% of his time with us too, and that a few good rounds at Carlton do not make him an A grader. He's a great backup KPD who never stuck long term because he wasn't better than Macca or young enough to be part of the future.

 

[ydraw]

Yeah that's some serious revisionist history s**t to be saying we didn't try to work Silvagni into the team. His few games as a KPF were not great, ditto Alex Pearce.

Another one who expects every person we try there to be great at it from day 1.

Completely missing the point.

I think a lot of fans were just spoilt by the Pavlich era and don't see the point of perservering with anyone who isn't as good as Pavlich. Gonna be a long wait for those guys until they see a KPF they're happy with.

These are the same people who complain about our forward 50 entries each week and can't seem to connect the dots.

A large percentage of your forward 50 entries are going to be kicks to a contest under pressure. You need people in the forward line to contest those contests. No team relies purely on hit up passes to leading forwards. It's just not realistic. That's why every football team in the history of football plays key forwards.

 

[Kram]

Didn't mind Silvagni but he's was fairly average and very injury prone. Still could have been kept over the likes of Dawson though.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Another one who expects every person we try there to be great at it from day 1.

Completely missing the point.

I think a lot of fans were just spoilt by the Pavlich era and don't see the point of perservering with anyone who isn't as good as Pavlich. Gonna be a long wait for those guys until they see a KPF they're happy with.

Yeah no mate. We gave Silvagni a solid few games up front. He was potato. Alex Pearce has awful set shot technique and is so good down back that it's a Peter/Paul scenario.

Your logic is just straight ******* weird for someone who is as down as you are on Kersten and Cam Mac too.

 

[ydraw]

Yeah no mate. We gave Silvagni a solid few games up front. He was potato. Alex Pearce has awful set shot technique and is so good down back that it's a Peter/Paul scenario.

Your logic is just straight ******* weird for someone who is as down as you are on Kersten and Cam Mac too.

Kersten and Cam Mac are not key forwards. McCarthy averages 0.4 contested marks per game in his career. Kersten 0.5. These are leading forwards, not key forwards. For reference, Michael Walters averages the same amount of contested marks as those guys.

I am not "down" on either of them. I am just pointing out that they are not key forwards, and key forwards are what we need.

I would prefer to play Zac Dawson at full forward than nobody at all.

 

[imperial_oz]

Yeah that's some serious revisionist history s**t to be saying we didn't try to work Silvagni into the team. His few games as a KPF were not great, ditto Alex Pearce. Never mind he was injured 50% of his time with us too, and that a few good rounds at Carlton do not make him an A grader. He's a great backup KPD who never stuck long term because he wasn't better than Macca or young enough to be part of the future.

I liked Silva and thought he didn't really get much of a fair run when he was available. As a tall defender, he was alway behind McPharlin and Johnson and I would say behind Pearce A as well. I still had him in front of Dawson as he was much more versatile.

That said, he was injury prone and sometimes made poor choices on field that led to suspensions, so it wasn't all one way traffic with him. I see him the way I see Barlow, not the best player we had but more than useful and could have been retained. He wasn't, so its all water under the bridge now

 

[ydraw]

Yeah no mate. We gave Silvagni a solid few games up front. He was potato. Alex Pearce has awful set shot technique and is so good down back that it's a Peter/Paul scenario.

You obviously missed the part where I said we could have played Silvagni in defense and one of our other defenders (Johnson, McPharlin, Dawson, take your pick) in the forward line.

What we did instead was left him in the reserves and played an extra midfielder behind the ball and went without a proper forward line.

Didn't work then. Still doesn't work now.

 

[imperial_oz]

Kersten and Cam Mac are not key forwards. McCarthy averages 0.4 contested marks per game in his career. Kersten 0.5. These are leading forwards, not key forwards. For reference, Michael Walters averages the same amount of contested marks as those guys.

I am not "down" on either of them. I am just pointing out that they are not key forwards, and key forwards are what we need.

I would prefer to play Zac Dawson at full forward than nobody at all.

Agreed they are not key forwards so we need to stop trying to make them key forwards. We need to use what we have and structure up a smaller, mobile forward line. We need to do things different now that we don't have Pav but we haven't done that. If you are going to keep going down the path of a key forward type setup then Tabs comes in for one of them and acts as marking focus while McCarthy / Kersten acts further up field in a mobile capacity. Add to that at least Ballantyne / Crozier as roving smalls at ground level.

Either way, we need to:
a. have a forward structure that is there when we get the ball, and
b. stop bombing it in instead of looking for and kicking to a target.

Bombing it in didn't work when he had a Pav, so there is even less chance when we don't have one

 

[ydraw]

Agreed they are not key forwards so we need to stop trying to make them key forwards. We need to use what we have and structure up a smaller, mobile forward line.

No, we don't. We need to pick the key forwards we do have and hope they get better while actively searching for better ones. Smaller mobile forward lines don't work and have never worked.

 

[imperial_oz]

You obviously missed the part where I said we could have played Silvagni in defense and one of our other defenders (Johnson, McPharlin, Dawson, take your pick) in the forward line.

Don't agree with that. Johnson, McPharlin and Silva down back, Dawson at Peel.

I can't see that robbing our defense to try and make a forward would have fixed our woes tbh. Tactics and delivery to the forwards we had would have worked better. I'd say the same for today's situation

 

[ydraw]

Bombing it in didn't work when he had a Pav, so there is even less chance when we don't have one

Bombing it in didn't work when we had a Pav because he was our only key forward and therefore had to deal with 2 key defenders every time.

Bombing it in works fine if you have a proper forward line.

 

[ydraw]

Don't agree with that. Johnson, McPharlin and Silva down back, Dawson at Peel.

I can't see that robbing our defense to try and make a forward would have fixed our woes tbh.

It couldn't have made it any worse. We have the worst forward line in the competition and that has been true for years.

Perhaps it's time to stop bucking conventional wisdom and maybe try to find out why it's the conventional wisdom.

 

[imperial_oz]

No, we don't. We need to pick the key forwards we do have and hope they get better while actively searching for better ones. Smaller mobile forward lines don't work and have never worked.

Its what we have, so we have no choice.

Tabs is on the outer and won't ever be given any real chance to develop. First couple of poor games and he's back to Peel, unlike both McCarthy and Kersten. Apeness is injured and might well end up another injury prone player who never worked (hope not though).

We need to use what we have instead of wishing

 

[ydraw]

Can't blame Ross or the recruiters 100% for not developing a forward. We tried throwing the cheque book at every KPF out of contract, we traded/drafted Jack Anthony, Scott Gumbleton, Tanner Smith, Michael Apeness, Uebergang, Zac Clarke (although a ruckman, would've been used forward if fit). We've just been s**t out of luck with injuries.

We have a key forward who was top 20 in the league at contested marks last year and kicking accuracy over 80% and we drop him for 6 weeks every time it rains.

Please stop pretending like we have no options.

 

[imperial_oz]

It couldn't have made it any worse. We have the worst forward line in the competition and that has been true for years.

Perhaps it's time to stop bucking conventional wisdom and maybe try to find out why it's the conventional wisdom.

Fine, where do we get another Pav, only taller?

Even when you do, he has to be surrounded by sufficient support to allow him to do the job. Thats where we mostly failed with Pav