Strategy Trade and List Management thread 4 (Be sure to huddle around your transitor radio at 11 am Edition)

[immortalmike]

How many goals would he have to average to offset his lack of defensive pressure? Serious question.

3ish I'd say.
60 odd goals a year would be worth the defensive hit.

 

[Super Hans]

Can we just draft that small forward from the wafl who kicks goals for fun? Liam Ryan. Has 60 goals in 18 games this year.

 

[hutchy31]

Think he comes back or gone?

I'm not a body language expert, but he was sitting in the front row for bob's retirement address to the group and I'd be surprised if he was a bulldog next year.

 

[goodcop badcop]

Can we just draft that small forward from the wafl who kicks goals for fun? Liam Ryan. Has 60 goals in 18 games this year.

He only managed a level 10 beep test at the combine last year, he would have to improve on that.

 

[jdz101]

3ish I'd say.
60 odd goals a year would be worth the defensive hit.

So as a response to him not tackling in f50, your pass mark for jack redpath is becoming a discount 2018 answer to Josh Kennedy?

That truly is one of the oddest things you've said.

 

[AJARWA]

Interesting reading re Red. Is English a chance to play a solid chunk of games next year? If so I'd say Red could be gone. Different types I know. But as others have said, Dickson and Picken can play lead up, even Dunkley, and all offer more pressure. With a few more kilos English could at least bring the ball to ground and chop out in the ruck if both Boyd and Rough aren't available. Our best game of the year was probably v Bombers without Red, fast and manic.
I like Red. If he goes I hope he does well. Great footy story.

 

[AJARWA]

Can anyone tell me what the story is with crameri?

It's been suggested he's going and also that the club was unhappy with his prep this year.

From memory he got a huge welcome back last year after the lay off. He was recognised as one of the hardest trainers when he came from essendon. And our forward line looked much more dangerous in 2015 with him in the side imo. So it doesn't make much sense to me why everyone is saying he's out the door. Aside from the fact he's missed two years. But then why would anyone else want him, especially Melbourne (who have a solid list)?

 

[DelRe]

So as a response to him not tackling in f50, your pass mark for jack redpath is becoming a discount 2018 answer to Josh Kennedy?

That truly is one of the oddest things you've said.

I tend to agree with it though if I've understood it correctly. Redpath from my perspective seems equipped only to play a role that is suited to an elite full forward, which unfortunately he is not - ie we're trying to play Redpath in Barry Hall's role when he is well below that level (particularly one on one). So if he is only going to lead and mark then he needs to kick a lot of goals as he also absorbs more forward entries. So unless he is going to develop into a Kennedy calibre my preference is for a more varied attack with Stringer/Picken, Dickson offering the sharp leads, Cloke as a contested marking option (I feel he has a better chance of bringing the ball to ground) and Bont floating through etc.

In a way I'm saying unless you have a player capable of being a dominant full forward I don't see the benefits of playing an average one over a smaller more varied attack.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

I tend to agree with it though if I've understood it correctly. Redpath from my perspective seems equipped only to play a role that is suited to an elite full forward, which unfortunately he is not - ie we're trying to play Redpath in Barry Hall's role when he is well below that level (particularly one on one). So if he is only going to lead and mark then he needs to kick a lot of goals as he also absorbs more forward entries. So unless he is going to develop into a Kennedy calibre my preference is for a more varied attack with Stringer/Picken, Dickson offering the sharp leads, Cloke as a contested marking option (I feel he has a better chance of bringing the ball to ground) and Bont floating through etc.

In a way I'm saying unless you have a player capable of being a dominant full forward I don't see the benefits of playing an average one over a smaller more varied attack.

I don't mind playing 6 small forwards if we have a game plan to suit. We tried that in '08 (?)and came up short (hoho) though, which is when we all started ranting about trading for a quality tall .... I just dread the idea of no talls on our list, and watching a floating pointless entry drift onto the hands of gleeful tall defenders week after week. I also have a sick feeling in my guts we could end up at the selection table next year choosing from Roberts, Campbell and Roughy - none of whom are either any better than Red at playing key forward or capable or holding the role down for a year. We have a shedload of eggs in the Tom Boyd basket moving forward and the poor guy doesn't need anymore pressure frankly. Cloke is gone end of year by all accounts so isn't an option. Some serious list management decisions must be being made in the back room at the moment. We have some great players but something is just out of whack.

 

[DelRe]

I don't mind playing 6 small forwards if we have a game plan to suit. We tried that in '08 (?)and came up short (hoho) though, which is when we all started ranting about trading for a quality tall .... I just dread the idea of no talls on our list, and watching a floating pointless entry drift onto the hands of gleeful tall defenders week after week. I also have a sick feeling in my guts we could end up at the selection table next year choosing from Roberts, Campbell and Roughy - none of whom are either any better than Red at playing key forward or capable or holding the role down for a year. We have a shedload of eggs in the Tom Boyd basket moving forward and the poor guy doesn't need anymore pressure frankly. Cloke is gone end of year by all accounts so isn't an option. Some serious list management decisions must be being made in the back room at the moment. We have some great players but something is just out of whack.

We certainly, and not unreasonably, were hoping that Boyd would be the centrepiece of our talls and without that it certainly has a flow on consequence to the overall quality of our talls.

I wouldn't necessarily want to fall into the trap though of keeping a number of OK to average talls just because we have no other options.

I agree with your point around entries just floating into defenders hands and ideally we'd have at least one capable big body up there (Cloke my pref for remainder of this year which is prob forced now anyway) but your observation on that also highlights how poor our delivery has been to our forwards as well. How often do we not kick to their advantage and make it easier for the defender etc. I have wondered this year that with all the shuffling of players and lack of continuity whether a factor is also that we just don't have good chemistry between the mids and forwards - that kind of sixth sense of knowing where players are going to be.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

3ish I'd say.
60 odd goals a year would be worth the defensive hit.

Haha so if one of the cheapest on our list, on 1
year contracts, is in the Coleman hunt then he gets a pass mark. You're an easy man to please

 

[The Original Swooper]

Our issues with a sustainable forward line is an example of why clubs should be wary of trading future picks. You never know what a season of football dishes up

End of 2016, we are the Premiers. Tom Boyd came of age. Red & Cloke seemed decent 2nd talls, Roughy , Adams and BTC were the break in Emergency tall forwards and Crameri was returning. Stringer and Bont were expected to split a mid/ forward rotation.
Fast forward 12 months. Tom has his health issues, Red is suspect and inflexible, Cloke too had health issues and getting close to the end. Crameri's return didn't eventuate due to injury. NONE of the above are guaranteed to play in 2018.

Who plays KPF ? Need to trade out our picks for a player. What if we were Hawthorn ? Oops.

I'm sure the club knows what is happening with all of the above. It's no good trying to offer suggestions for recruits when we really don't know what the current crop is up to. Lever gives us flexibility with Kpp's and a gun mid would release Bont as more a forward. But who really knows ?

 

[Randomthoughts]

You could add Dickson and clay smith as forwards whom for one reason or another have not returned with last years form .
The tall draft last season was a start by the club so a few younger ones on the list but boy don't we need to find something for next year .

Our issues with a sustainable forward line is an example of why clubs should be wary of trading future picks. You never know what a season of football dishes up

End of 2016, we are the Premiers. Tom Boyd came of age. Red & Cloke seemed decent 2nd talls, Roughy , Adams and BTC were the break in Emergency tall forwards and Crameri was returning. Stringer and Bont were expected to split a mid/ forward rotation.
Fast forward 12 months. Tom has his health issues, Red is suspect and inflexible, Cloke too had health issues and getting close to the end. Crameri's return didn't eventuate due to injury. NONE of the above are guaranteed to play in 2018.

Who plays KPF ? Need to trade out our picks for a player. What if we were Hawthorn ? Oops.

I'm sure the club knows what is happening with all of the above. It's no good trying to offer suggestions for recruits when we really don't know what the current crop is up to. Lever gives us flexibility with Kpp's and a gun mid would release Bont as more a forward. But who really knows ?

ou

 

[The Original Swooper]

You could add Dickson and clay smith as forwards whom for one reason or another have not returned with last years form .
The tall draft last season was a start by the club so a few younger ones on the list but boy don't we need to find something for next year .

ou

I could add the flakey form of Jake Stringer too, but the point of the post was to highlight how in a 12 month period we COULD be bereft of a single creditable KPF, hence my disdain for the practice of trading out future picks. Hawthorn rolled the dice on Vickery & O'Meara. Jury out on Jaeger but on 2017 form they are in a spot of bother and no picks to play with. (Mind you, history suggests the Hawks will get out of it ).

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

apart from tall forwards, we also lack small quality forwards, goal sneaks. agile forwards

 

[Pannalstaroz]

I tend to agree with it though if I've understood it correctly. Redpath from my perspective seems equipped only to play a role that is suited to an elite full forward, which unfortunately he is not - ie we're trying to play Redpath in Barry Hall's role when he is well below that level (particularly one on one). So if he is only going to lead and mark then he needs to kick a lot of goals as he also absorbs more forward entries. So unless he is going to develop into a Kennedy calibre my preference is for a more varied attack with Stringer/Picken, Dickson offering the sharp leads, Cloke as a contested marking option (I feel he has a better chance of bringing the ball to ground) and Bont floating through etc.

In a way I'm saying unless you have a player capable of being a dominant full forward I don't see the benefits of playing an average one over a smaller more varied attack.

This is a great post.

 

[JEDi 44]

apart from tall forwards, we also lack small quality forwards, goal sneaks. agile forwards

we're gonna be short a couple of half backs too with Boyd and Murph giving it away. Not sure Suckling is our best option back there either

 

[BEaston]

3ish I'd say.
60 odd goals a year would be worth the defensive hit.

Fair enough.

For me it would be about 1.5-2 goals per game.

 

[Dogsman16]

Redpaths biggest issue is that he looks for the body too much and that's when he gets outmarked. He's much better off just focusing on getting the ball, granted he's never going to be a pack marker as such. He's worthy of a list spot though and unless we got a "key forward" premium on the trade table then he should remain at the dogs.

Really do believe pushing Adams forward will resolve a heap of issues with a mobile marking presence and someone who certainly isn't a liability in the air. You could also play him alongside Redpath so you have the leadup and contested marking option and Adams certainly doesn't lack mobility.

Stringer to a wing to get more drive/speed around the guts and he's probably the best guy to be driving the ball deep into the forward line which only really him, Bontempelli and JJ can do effectively! Far too one paced in the middle.

 

[Del165892]

I'm not a body language expert, but he was sitting in the front row for bob's retirement address to the group and I'd be surprised if he was a bulldog next year.

Yep. After seeing that I'm 99% sure he's gone. At least it means we have the cap the pursue anyone. Could even get both Lever and Kelly. Wouldnt that be something.

Wouldnt

That

Be

Something

 

[Del165892]

Not to be the type to start rumours but my mate spotted Crameri pissed as a maggot on Chapel street a few days before round one. He's a Bombers supporter so there was no mistaking it was Crameri, he even spoke to him. To me that just seems like a bloke who doesn't give a shit about the club or playing footy anymore. A year away from the game you should be focused on getting back to peak performance and earning your spot with the reigning premiers. Add to that scheduling your wedding before GF day. The guy is a ****head, honestly cannot wait until he goes.

 

[Mofra]

3ish I'd say.
60 odd goals a year would be worth the defensive hit.

That would have made him 6th in the Coleman medal tally last year - higher than Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron, Gunston, both Reiwoldts and Taylor Walker.

To me that seems like an impossibly high mountain to climb after 3 knee recos and possibly the worst F50 entry system in the competition.

 

[immortalmike]

I tend to agree with it though if I've understood it correctly. Redpath from my perspective seems equipped only to play a role that is suited to an elite full forward, which unfortunately he is not - ie we're trying to play Redpath in Barry Hall's role when he is well below that level (particularly one on one). So if he is only going to lead and mark then he needs to kick a lot of goals as he also absorbs more forward entries. So unless he is going to develop into a Kennedy calibre my preference is for a more varied attack with Stringer/Picken, Dickson offering the sharp leads, Cloke as a contested marking option (I feel he has a better chance of bringing the ball to ground) and Bont floating through etc.

In a way I'm saying unless you have a player capable of being a dominant full forward I don't see the benefits of playing an average one over a smaller more varied attack.

This. Perfectly summed up.
If Redpath is only good at kicking goals he better kick a lot of them.

 

[Mofra]

It's also no coincidence that Stringer played his best football along side him. In my view Cloke wouldn't get close to a game if Crameri were available. Plays the same role only infinitely better. It's a real shame that the past two seasons have been a complete bust for him. It'll be interesting watching how things pan out for him next year.

I don't agree - Cloke will do the pack crashing work to bring the ball to ground, and is giving chop outs in the ruck. Crameri's role in 2015 was more akin to Dickson's - playing deep or high forward and taking a few turns at running higher up the ground. Not sure they can be directly compared.

 

[immortalmike]

That would have made him 6th in the Coleman medal tally last year - higher than Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron, Gunston, both Reiwoldts and Taylor Walker.

To me that seems like an impossibly high mountain to climb after 3 knee recos and possibly the worst F50 entry system in the competition.

He's one dimensional. So he better be ****ing good at that dimension otherwise what's the point. I'd rather a more complete player take his spot.