Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[Strapping Young Lad]

I would bet i understand more so than you do. If someone wants to present themselves as a man or a woman to the world to feel better that doesn't bother me in the slightest, its when people demand that others must buy into that belief and accept it as fact despite any evidence against it that i have a problem.

I fully understand how psychologically hard that would be for someone who has reached that opinion. I don't agree with the opinion that someone is in the "wrong body" but i realise it would be terrible if someone else felt that so im fine with people making changes to suit them. That doesn't mean everyone else has to be forced to also go along with it and ignore their own reality

So understanding or showing compassion towards transgender people is something you need to buy into?

And Gender dysphoria is an opinion that someone has come to, that you don't have to agree with?

 

[Jugada]

So you think gender dysphoria is completely made up? You think it has no backing from any psychological or scientific literature?

What? Gender dysphoria is exactly what im agreeing with

The idea that someone is actually a woman but with a man's body is what i dont agree with

 

[Chief]

I identify as a 65 year old woman so I can go to female toilets and claim a seniors card and the pension

This isn't true.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

There is a distinction between ethnicity and gender. Part of gender is tied up in identity. Like the examples of people born in the 60s of unclear gender, who were assigned a gender by surgery. Their gender identity then started to assert itself as they got older, and if it conflicted with their assigned gender, identity won.

Plenty of people have ethnic backgrounds that they are unaware of. People who look European, but also have a Chinese background do not start waking up with a feeling of Asianness.

So the reason others need to accept ethnicity is because their is no internal orientation to your race. Your ethnicity is down to your genetics and cultural upbringing, it needs to be recognised to be valid.

Gender identity is internal, it does not require external validation to be true.

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You do not think someone can feel a connection to a culture and want to identify themselves with the majority ethnicity of that culture? Why should others get to decide what they are?

 

[TheKITC]

The psychological literature disagrees with you.

The biological literature disagrees with you.

The medical profession disagrees with you.

The law disagrees with you.

Why do you think your opinion has more weight than science and the law? I don't think it does and I don't think you could convince any of these institutions it does.

Completely unfounded and untrue.

 

[Malifice]

No idea what this means but im sure its a solid argument

Rene Descartes was French philosopher. He coined the phrase Cogito Ergo Sum. His main contribution to the theory of mind was the concept of 'dualism' or the separation of the mind and the body, and the inability to be sure of the objective truth of anything outside of the existence of the former. Your own ability to doubt the existence of the universe (you could be in the matrix or a dream), proves you exist (something must be doubting).

Congratulations I just saved you 6 months of university.

I could have also raised postmodernism and its critiques of 'objective truths' but I doubt I could do that in a single paragraph.

The long and short of it is, you have no place telling a person what gender they should think they are. They also have no place telling you that you're wrong for identifying as a man.

This is different from an argument about biological sex. Its an argument about gender. Like it or not sex and gender are as much 'nurture' (or socially constucted gender roles and self identity) as it is about biology or 'nature'.

You can whinge about that all you want, but it doesn't stop it from being true.

That isnt to say that to qualify for a womans sport or competition, all one needs to do is identify as a woman and thats that. There are biological realities to take into account as well.

 

[Since 2001]

Who is forcing anything on you?
No one is forcing a damn thing on you.

So you're not a heartless bastard, but you've decided to call 'Hannah' a man while you're here, despite her attempts and quite clear conviction that she is to be as close to a woman as she can phsyically get.

For example: The vote yes for marriage equality.
Radio stations consistently putting on ads for vote yes, t.v vote yes, afl vote yes ect. But if there is a vote no ad its frowned upon.

For example: Trans being allowed in bathrooms.
Should a male who has transitioned into a women be allowed in a womens toilet or if a women has transition into a male should she use the male toilet? If you say no you are looked down upon.

People don't want ideas forced upon them or be made out to look like bad people if they have a different opinion. The left is very good at making people look like s**t for disagreeing with them by calling them racists, fascist, misogynist ect.

Why is someone a bastard for disagreeing with you? Why can't you have a normal conversation without getting emotional or verbally hateful?

As I've said on the hawks board I have trans friends and they accept my ideas and beliefs as I do theirs. I still call my friend by his male name even though he is now a women.

And why should I and others be forced into calling Hannah, her when some believe she is still a he?

 

[Chief]

What? Gender dysphoria is exactly what im agreeing with

The idea that someone is actually a woman but with a man's body is what i dont agree with

Depends what you call "actually a woman". Do you mean at the level of DNA? Body chemistry?

 

[jatz14]

It's the part I don't get either.
Maybe they didn't wanna seem like dicks to the general public who get upset over everything they hear, so still allowed her to have involvement in the sport.

Why would the AFL have a say? My local league still has its own rules, and doesn't take jack s**t from the AFL, they certainly wouldn't be asking their permission over who could play.

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[kaiserchief13]

I'm glad to see that the AFL put the health and safety of 300 women above the mental delusions of one man

 

[liam123]

I identify as a 65 year old woman so I can go to female toilets and claim a seniors card and the pension

You forgot that your also handicapped so you get more government assistance and better parking. You also forgot to specify which nationality you identify as, that way you could claim more assistance or land rights depending on which country your from....

 

[Chief]

"You're".


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jugada]

So understanding or showing compassion towards transgender people is something you need to buy into?

And Gender dysphoria is an opinion that someone has come to, that you don't have to agree with?

Did you even read what i said? I am completely understanding of the issues and have compassion. That doesn't mean the rest of the world have to bend the rules and laws that affect other people to protect someone elses feelings

Do you even know what gender dysphoria is? Im not denying that they're feelings aren't sincere, im just saying that what they believe is true i dont believe is true

 

[Malifice]

You do not think someone can feel a connection to a culture and want to identify themselves with the majority ethnicity of that culture? Why should others get to decide what they are?

Because ethnicity depends on mutual acceptance as part of a social group. You can be ethnically West African and calling yourself Han Chinese all you want, but they will disagree. If you're in a social group of 1 person, its not a group.

A transgender person acknowledges they are a different biological sex (physically a man) than their own self identity and gender (mentally a woman). Gender (self identity) doesn't rely on external validation to be true.

One cant be physically one ethnic group, and mentally a different one. Although you can belong to multiple ethic groups.

 

[Mitch3233]

This thread is so disappointing.

You can think what you want about the decision, but the venom in the some of your words towards one of the most persecuted minorities and their value as human beings is saddening.

 

[jatz14]

There's people who identify as amputees, even though they aren't.

Should they be allowed in the Paralympics ?

You determine an amputee by counting the number of intact limbs. So, if you identify as an amputee, you can go to the Paralympics, but only if you cut of a limb.

Just like you can identify as a woman, and play women's sport, but only if you chemically or physically castrate yourself.

So, good analogy

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[AstroboyUK]

Because ethnicity depends on mutual acceptance as part of a social group. You can be ethnically West African and calling yourself Han Chinese all you want, but they will disagree. If you're in a social group of 1 person, its not a group.

A transgender person acknowledges they are a different biological sex (physically a man) than their own self identity and gender (mentally a woman). Gender (self identity) doesn't rely on external validation to be true.

One cant be physically one ethnic group, and mentally a different one. Although you can belong to multiple ethic groups.

do you not see the mental gymnastics you are having to perform to maintain any kind of consistency

 

[Jugada]

Rene Descartes was French philosopher. He coined the phrase Cogito Ergo Sum. His main contribution to the theory of mind was the concept of 'dualism' or the separation of the mind and the body, and the inability to be sure of the objective truth of anything outside of the existence of the former. Your own ability to doubt the existence of the universe (you could be in the matrix or a dream), proves you exist (something must be doubting).

Congratulations I just saved you 6 months of university.

I could have also raised postmodernism and its critiques of 'objective truths' but I doubt I could do that in a single paragraph.

The long and short of it is, you have no place telling a person what gender they should think they are. They also have no place telling you that you're wrong for identifying as a man.

This is different from an argument about biological sex. Its an argument about gender. Like it or not sex and gender are as much 'nurture' (or socially constucted gender roles and self identity) as it is about biology or 'nature'.

You can whinge about that all you want, but it doesn't stop it from being true.

That isnt to say that to qualify for a womans sport or competition, all one needs to do is identify as a woman and thats that. There are biological realities to take into account as well.

If you want to seperate gender and sex then someones gender makes about as much difference as they're spirit animal and has no place in this sort of discussion

Yes the biological realities to take into account which are located in your DNA

 

[beta_condition]

Common sense prevails

Crap decision by the AFL. Hannah’s testosterone levels are minimal and don’t allow her to be a power athlete from what I understand. She’s pre-op, but she isn’t a man.


The AFL’s reasoning that she’s too big, is just damn odd. Are we going to ban ruckman seeing as they are bigger than rovers?

Brad Hill plays in the same comp as Tom Hawkins, is that fair?

I keep seeing you use this stupid strawman line over and over. It's not about size but the physical advantage men naturally have over women. No hormone therapy will ever change the physical/athletics advantage a male body produces and no lower testosterone doesn't counter act this.

 

[Jugada]

Depends what you call "actually a woman". Do you mean at the level of DNA? Body chemistry?

Biologically.

AKA the only thing that actually matters in these discussions

 

[greatwhiteshark]

This thread is so disappointing.

You can think what you want about the decision, but the venom in the some of your words towards one of the most persecuted minorities and their value as human beings is saddening.

I agree with this and it is sad. But I think it is because some want people to believe something they believe in and refuse to accept that others don’t and won’t just say you’re entitled to your view.
Society for ever has been operated in general by what serves the greater majority, there is a hell of a lot noise these days by very tiny minority groups who want the world changed to suit themselves.

 

[MightyTiger]

My brother is a T2/ T3 paraplegic.

You have exactly 5 minutes to find me a substantial case of a person who identifies as an amputee (but isnt) or I'll infract you for trolling.

Time starts now.

Sorry to hear about your brother, truly am, I hope he is able to live a full and happy life.

But there is now something called Transable, where 'normal' people who are seemingly healthy are identifying as people with disabilities.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

OTTAWA — When he cut off his right arm with a “very sharp power tool,” a man who now calls himself One Hand Jason let everyone believe it was an accident.

But he had for months tried different means of cutting and crushing the limb that never quite felt like his own, training himself on first aid so he wouldn’t bleed to death, even practicing on animal parts sourced from a butcher.

“My goal was to get the job done with no hope of reconstruction or re-attachment, and I wanted some method that I could actually bring myself to do,” he told the body modification website ModBlog.
His goal was to become disabled.

People like Jason have been classified as ‘‘transabled’’ — feeling like imposters in their bodies, their arms and legs in full working order.


“We define transability as the desire or the need for a person identified as able-bodied by other people to transform his or her body to obtain a physical impairment,” says Alexandre Baril, a Quebec born academic who will present on “transability” at this week’s Congress of the Social Sciences and Humanities at the University of Ottawa.

“The person could want to become deaf, blind, amputee, paraplegic. It’s a really, really strong desire.”

 

[Since 2001]

Common sense prevails
I keep seeing you use this stupid strawman line over and over. It's not about size but the physical advantage men naturally have over women. No hormone therapy will ever change the physical/athletics advantage a male body produces and no lower testosterone doesn't counter act this.

abasi doesn't understand its aflw for bio-logical women and afl for bio-logical men

its so simple, yet somehow so complicated

 

[jatz14]

Im sure if their daughter/sister/ girlfriend or whatever was playing in the AFL W and had to go up against a 190cm former elite male athlete they might have second thoughts. It would be unsafe to allow her to play.

There was a twitter discussion. A woman 152cm played against her, was asked her opinion. Her comment was, you have to make sure you body her up before she gains momentum.

She saw it as a purely practical problem of stopping someone big in a footy game. Not a oh woe is me, he's so big and I'm so little, it's just not fair, way. That seems to be confined to here.

As an aside, I assume Canberra female footy is now stuffed, given all the female players have left on account of Hannah?



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[Malifice]

simply repeating something over and over doesn't make it true Malifice.

To claim 'scientific consensus' on this is completely untrue

Mate, bullshit:

Science would favor Du Bois. Today, the mainstream belief among scientists is that race is a social construct without biological meaning. And yet, you might still open a study on genetics in a major scientific journal and find categories like "white" and "black" being used as biological variables.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

No, its not untrue. Its the scientific consensus. You might not agree with that consensus, but that's not relevant to whether it is consensus or not. Thats just your opinion.

This isnt the thread to discuss your personal grievance with scientific consensus that race is a social construct containing entirely arbitrary, varied and fluid genetic markers from 'race' to 'race'. Take it to SRP and I'll happily debate you on that board.