Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

[Janus]

I'm mocking the poster. The same poster who rates this movie higher than Empire, and thinks Mark Hamill doesn't fully understand his character, but is happy enough to lecture that he apparently knows more.

Far better than Empire, because the themes it explores are better.

As for Mark Hamill:

 

[glenferry23]

Well worded statement by Hamill, possibly under some pressure from his representatives and/or Disney to clear the air.

Saying ‘I was wrong to voice it in public’ is completely different from ‘I was wrong’. Wouldn’t read too much into that at all, it appears a PR move.

 

[Janus]

Well worded statement by Hamill, possibly under some pressure from his representatives and/or Disney to clear the air.

Saying ‘I was wrong to voice it in public’ is completely different from ‘I was wrong’. Wouldn’t read too much into that at all, it appears a PR move.

Oh, but in an interview he actually said that after seeing the movie he was wrong.

 

[glenferry23]

Oh, but in an interview he actually said that after seeing the movie he was wrong.

Of course, what else is he going to say? He has to secure his future appearances at conventions right, according to you?

 

[Moti]

That's a bit disingenuous there. The MAIN complaints -- from fans and analysts alike -- is that there are major problems with the script....the main plot and sub-plots especially, the story largely treading on water, that TLJ broke everything TFA tried to set up which is a fundamental faceplant in trilogy writing. Those are the main problems. And of course, there are all the other ones you mention and more, that are more the minor things in the movie, that people take umbrage with.

As in, it's a GIVEN now that the story/script is shit, and so no one really argues/debates that much. Instead, the thing that is causing the most debate back and forth is all the smaller details in the story, why they end up dominating most of the debates because they're interesting and thought-provoking topics....like Luke's arc, etc etc.

It is not a GIVEN at all. Perhaps to you but the reason it received such positive reviews from many mainstream reviewers was because of the script. They looked at the scenes, dialogue and context and fell it is a good to great story, regardless of SW.

 

[Moti]

There’s some great ideas that are woven between the film and a handful of really good scenes. However they are never fully fleshed out and few and far between.

The other 2/3rds of the film that IMO is average at best, is further amplified by the promise that the film showed.

Again, more power to the people that can look past the flaws and enjoyed the film, but for me; the horrible pacing, poor dialogue and poor writing took me out of the ‘escapist fun’ that these films are meant to provide.

I’ve seen remarks along social media that people criticising those that didn’t like it grouped together with people that hated TFA because it was rehashed. It has nothing to do with that, it was a poorly made film.

The fact it disregarded the film that immediately proceeded it was a direct kick in the nutcracker. It doesn’t need service the previous 6 main saga films, it should at the very least TFA, it didn’t.

What did it disregard?

 

[Strange Cat]

Just quietly it’s 7.6 now on IMDB

Has been slowly going down over time

And back out I go

 

[JackOutback]

Wait, there's a petition to remove TLJ from canon? I sometimes hate being a Star Wars fan.

 

[Tuco]

Some make believe in SW is fine...just watch the prequels and the originals.

As for the milk scene, it could be something that is written into jedi folklore books or something along those lines. Not glamorous, but obviously its a way to obtain food, lol.

Again, these films are all entertainment and make believe..

They aren't real life, obviously.

Again i say, stop overanalysing this stuff, it's meant to take you somewhere.

Eh?

Nah. That's my wife. Not me. I laughed at the Milk scene on a first viewing. I could care less about the faux rage about TLJ.

I do find it interesting how much these films seem to divide audiences, though.

 

[Ry009]

What did it disregard?

With all due respect, it’s been repeated ad nauseam, but basically the films major plot lines. Rey’s parentage, Snoke etc.

Problem was, all that was fine if it served to develop the story if the major plot lines of TFA were red herrings. It didn’t.

It scratched the surface with the balance of light and dark and the true purpose of the Jedi, then by the end of the movie it circles around back to Kylo and the First Order (bad) vs Rey and the Resistance (Good).

 

[exe ex machina]

Also, love how it’s a “face palm at trilogy writing” because there’s no fully conceived story from the beginning.

FFS, Lucas made the OT up as he went along. Only the prequels had any semblance of an overarching story from the get go. And look at the mess that left.

Facepalm indeed.

No, Lucas is on record many times saying he originally scripted a story that is what ended up being the entire original trilogy. But it was too long to make as a movie, so he trimmed the story down to three sections that would be the original trilogy. And that he always envisioned this story would be not just a six-part saga, but a nine-part saga. Such that during the guts of the original trilogy being made, he had already written the prequel trilogy as a story to turn into movies.

How else do you think this whole massive and detailed EU got to where it did so quickly? Because pretty much everything in the whole EU was already in Lucas' mind as all the movies were being made, and he started commissioning people to write books for it all. And more to your point -- that he indeed had a huge vision already in his head, a purpose and connection, and wasn't making up stuff as he went along.

Again, what movie are these people watching?

The whole point of the movie is that Luke was seen as the 'personification of goodness and hope' - which is something that no human can live up to. Luke isn't perfect. He has a dark side too, just like everyone does. 'I failed because I was Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master. A legend.' He believed that he was exactly what this person said he was and had already faced the 'final test'.

Which is exactly what the issue was with the Jedi in the first place. Their whole system came crashing down because they were filled with hubris and didn't believe that a Jedi would fall to the dark side on their watch. It was a systemic flaw in the Jedi code as the Jedi had come to understand it, because like with any fundamentalist religion, the propensity is for those that don't find what they seek in balance to swing hard to extremes instead of striking balance.
'

This is what that Dave Stewart video analysis/criticism is so right. That there's no reason to the new star wars, whereas the first 6 films did have an underlying purpose/reason, the story going somewhere tangible, all the characters acting within that reason. Because, as he put it.....the whole six film saga was put to bed by ROTJ, there was a backstory explaining/showing WHY there was a confilict in the OT, and it got resolved. But the new ST has essentially disregarded all that resolution, and instead of taking it to the story's natural progression, the galaxy's progression, it just rehashed the same exact iconography and themes (evil empire of stormtroopers vs ragtag rebels). That's where there is a rot to the core of the new ST. The story did not movie forward and pose NEW types of problems, new types of themes. Another example is Luke specifically....he conquered his fears, he already had his moment on the brink of the dark side, but threw away the lightsaber, and did the Ghandi thing, removed the hubris and replaced it with compassion and love for all, and was able to redeem his father and see the end of the Sith. But in the ST, again, it's Disney just rehashing that same failure again when it needed to progress. Another example, on your hubris point --- the old Jedi order has already been shown to have failed due to their hubris in the PT, when Yoda commented how a Sith master has all this time been sitting right on top of them, manipulating them, an evil empire created under their noses all along without any of these grand masters (yoda, windu, etc) even suspecting anything. And he even mentioned how hubris was to blame. And they learned their lesson because Order 66 was executed and the Jedi wiped out due to that hubris.

Thought it lacked a good story. Wouldn't tell people to see it.

Again, everyday people who didn't go to film or writing school, they KNOW what's a good story or bad. You don't need a degree in something to know when a story feels off, is on the nose, or hits all the marks. You tell everytime you read a book, or watch a tv show or movie. People KNOW. And I wont say "most" but a clear divide exists, a massive amount of people have all over and over and over in their reviews/etc have fingered the STORY/script as where the film is flawed, and indeed, full of too much hubris. Which is funny because it's karma hitting back at Disney, such that they will learn (hopefully) when writing future SW stories to not piss on things.

Well worded statement by Hamill, possibly under some pressure from his representatives and/or Disney to clear the air.

Saying ‘I was wrong to voice it in public’ is completely different from ‘I was wrong’. Wouldn’t read too much into that at all, it appears a PR move.

That is sooooooooooooo obvious a PR statement. I see these comments all the time in the NFL, when a player says a sexist thing in press-conference, or says something bad on twitter and then later claims someone hacked their account. They're all forced to apologize in exactly the same scripted apology, even tho there's truly no contrition there, they carry on how they did, or they keep saying the same thing that got them in trouble weeks later.

 

[Coolangatta]

Again, more power to the people that can look past the flaws and enjoyed the film, but for me; the horrible pacing, poor dialogue and poor writing took me out of the ‘escapist fun’ that these films are meant to provide.

lol the originals had some poor dialogue, too. I thought a lot of the dialogue in TLJ was good personally; well, at least compared to the prequels, but that's not saying much.

 

[Coolangatta]

With all due respect, it’s been repeated ad nauseam, but basically the films major plot lines. Rey’s parentage, Snoke etc.

Problem was, all that was fine if it served to develop the story if the major plot lines of TFA were red herrings. It didn’t.

It scratched the surface with the balance of light and dark and the true purpose of the Jedi, then by the end of the movie it circles around back to Kylo and the First Order (bad) vs Rey and the Resistance (Good).

Rey's parentage wasn't a major plot line. No one in the story gives a **** except for the audience. We're even told by Maz that Rey already knew the truth that her parents were never coming back. We're told she thought Luke was a myth, as well as the Force and the Jedi. Snoke wasn't a major plot line either. Again, no one in the story gives a **** about who he is and where he came from except for the audience. Sure, I think Rey could've asked Luke about how Snoke corrupted Ben when she had the chance but she was more interested at the time in learning whether Luke tried to kill Ben or not. As for your etc, I've already explained the map. Again, it was never relevant, Luke never gave R2 the full map because he didn't want to be found. R2 wakes up on the base cause BB-8 tells him he has the other piece. JJ says this in the commentary but it doesn't need to be explained in film. TLJ didn't disregard TFA, it just realised none of that stuff was actually important to the characters. We, the audience, got trolled.

 

[JackOutback]

No, Lucas is on record many times saying he originally scripted a story that is what ended up being the entire original trilogy. But it was too long to make as a movie, so he trimmed the story down to three sections that would be the original trilogy. And that he always envisioned this story would be not just a six-part saga, but a nine-part saga. Such that during the guts of the original trilogy being made, he had already written the prequel trilogy as a story to turn into movies.

How else do you think this whole massive and detailed EU got to where it did so quickly? Because pretty much everything in the whole EU was already in Lucas' mind as all the movies were being made, and he started commissioning people to write books for it all. And more to your point -- that he indeed had a huge vision already in his head, a purpose and connection, and wasn't making up stuff as he went along.



This is what that Dave Stewart video analysis/criticism is so right. That there's no reason to the new star wars, whereas the first 6 films did have an underlying purpose/reason, the story going somewhere tangible, all the characters acting within that reason. Because, as he put it.....the whole six film saga was put to bed by ROTJ, there was a backstory explaining/showing WHY there was a confilict in the OT, and it got resolved. But the new ST has essentially disregarded all that resolution, and instead of taking it to the story's natural progression, the galaxy's progression, it just rehashed the same exact iconography and themes (evil empire of stormtroopers vs ragtag rebels). That's where there is a rot to the core of the new ST. The story did not movie forward and pose NEW types of problems, new types of themes. Another example is Luke specifically....he conquered his fears, he already had his moment on the brink of the dark side, but threw away the lightsaber, and did the Ghandi thing, removed the hubris and replaced it with compassion and love for all, and was able to redeem his father and see the end of the Sith. But in the ST, again, it's Disney just rehashing that same failure again when it needed to progress. Another example, on your hubris point --- the old Jedi order has already been shown to have failed due to their hubris in the PT, when Yoda commented how a Sith master has all this time been sitting right on top of them, manipulating them, an evil empire created under their noses all along without any of these grand masters (yoda, windu, etc) even suspecting anything. And he even mentioned how hubris was to blame. And they learned their lesson because Order 66 was executed and the Jedi wiped out due to that hubris.



Again, everyday people who didn't go to film or writing school, they KNOW what's a good story or bad. You don't need a degree in something to know when a story feels off, is on the nose, or hits all the marks. You tell everytime you read a book, or watch a tv show or movie. People KNOW. And I wont say "most" but a clear divide exists, a massive amount of people have all over and over and over in their reviews/etc have fingered the STORY/script as where the film is flawed, and indeed, full of too much hubris. Which is funny because it's karma hitting back at Disney, such that they will learn (hopefully) when writing future SW stories to not piss on things.



That is sooooooooooooo obvious a PR statement. I see these comments all the time in the NFL, when a player says a sexist thing in press-conference, or says something bad on twitter and then later claims someone hacked their account. They're all forced to apologize in exactly the same scripted apology, even tho there's truly no contrition there, they carry on how they did, or they keep saying the same thing that got them in trouble weeks later.

This is a myth; Lucas has also said he had the broad brush outline of a larger story but he in no way had the whole thing plotted out. Much of what we saw in each trilogy was developed on the fly. Hell, it's been well established that Vader being Luke's father was not the plan as of the first film. As for the EU, Lucas had final approval on major plot points (lest it interfere with future plans) but he did not develop the stories in any way. That was the authors and book department.

As for Luke's character development, I disagree it's a rehash. In the the OT, he was an impetuous youth who resisted the temptation of the dark side. In TLJ, he has taken on the role of a parent struggling with failure and the acceptance that children must be allowed to grow beyond us; two distinct narratives.

 

[exe ex machina]

Btw, regarding Mary Sue....good brief way it was explained that i read elsewhere....

Luke was in full Jedi mode at the beginning of the third episode of trilogy.
Rey was in full Jedi mode at the end of the first episode of trilogy.

 

[Kellythatsit]

No, Lucas is on record many times saying he originally scripted a story that is what ended up being the entire original trilogy. But it was too long to make as a movie, so he trimmed the story down to three sections that would be the original trilogy. And that he always envisioned this story would be not just a six-part saga, but a nine-part saga. Such that during the guts of the original trilogy being made, he had already written the prequel trilogy as a story to turn into movies.

Lucas says a lot of things. At one point he envisioned 12(!) movies. Then he said there would be 9, then back to 3, then 6 and finally 9 again. In fact, at the very beginning he thought there would only be one, so sure was he that the film would bomb.

Lucas’ claim that there was an early draft which he cut into 3 parts is a bit misleading. The original script he wrote was essentially Hidden Fortress in space. The script featured a chase on a desert world in the first act, a chase through an asteroid field in the second and an offensive attack against the empire to destroy the Death Star, with the help of primitive species in the third. As the plot was pared down it became closer and closer to what became Star Wars with some of those plot elements either removed or reworked for the film. For example, the asteroid chase and desert chase were combined and became the Death Star rescue, the assault on the Death Star at the end is similar to what appears in the film however the primitive natives were reworked into the rag tag rebellion.

Then when Star Wars was a success Lucas added some of these discarded features into successive stories.

However, the overall story for each film was conceived individually. In fact the original ‘sequel’ to Star Wars was Splinter of the Minds Eye, which Lucas conceived as a low budget TV movie (again, Lucas was always the pessimist). When Star Wars became the success it became this was quickly scrapped and released as a novel while Lucas began working on a more complex story, based on another Kurosawa film Derzu Uzala.

How else do you think this whole massive and detailed EU got to where it did so quickly? Because pretty much everything in the whole EU was already in Lucas' mind as all the movies were being made, and he started commissioning people to write books for it all. And more to your point -- that he indeed had a huge vision already in his head, a purpose and connection, and wasn't making up stuff as he went along.

Lucas himself has stated he barely had anything to do with the eu after the first few novels. Authors would develop their own stories and submit to Lucasfilm. A Lucasfilm creative exec would read the manuscript and offer further direction/changes to be made. Very, very rarely would Lucas have any input. It’s just not something he cared too much about and he hired people to look after that side of things.

 

[Janus]

No, Lucas is on record many times saying he originally scripted a story that is what ended up being the entire original trilogy. But it was too long to make as a movie, so he trimmed the story down to three sections that would be the original trilogy. And that he always envisioned this story would be not just a six-part saga, but a nine-part saga. Such that during the guts of the original trilogy being made, he had already written the prequel trilogy as a story to turn into movies.

How else do you think this whole massive and detailed EU got to where it did so quickly? Because pretty much everything in the whole EU was already in Lucas' mind as all the movies were being made, and he started commissioning people to write books for it all. And more to your point -- that he indeed had a huge vision already in his head, a purpose and connection, and wasn't making up stuff as he went along.



This is what that Dave Stewart video analysis/criticism is so right. That there's no reason to the new star wars, whereas the first 6 films did have an underlying purpose/reason, the story going somewhere tangible, all the characters acting within that reason. Because, as he put it.....the whole six film saga was put to bed by ROTJ, there was a backstory explaining/showing WHY there was a confilict in the OT, and it got resolved. But the new ST has essentially disregarded all that resolution, and instead of taking it to the story's natural progression, the galaxy's progression, it just rehashed the same exact iconography and themes (evil empire of stormtroopers vs ragtag rebels). That's where there is a rot to the core of the new ST. The story did not movie forward and pose NEW types of problems, new types of themes. Another example is Luke specifically....he conquered his fears, he already had his moment on the brink of the dark side, but threw away the lightsaber, and did the Ghandi thing, removed the hubris and replaced it with compassion and love for all, and was able to redeem his father and see the end of the Sith. But in the ST, again, it's Disney just rehashing that same failure again when it needed to progress. Another example, on your hubris point --- the old Jedi order has already been shown to have failed due to their hubris in the PT, when Yoda commented how a Sith master has all this time been sitting right on top of them, manipulating them, an evil empire created under their noses all along without any of these grand masters (yoda, windu, etc) even suspecting anything. And he even mentioned how hubris was to blame. And they learned their lesson because Order 66 was executed and the Jedi wiped out due to that hubris.



Again, everyday people who didn't go to film or writing school, they KNOW what's a good story or bad. You don't need a degree in something to know when a story feels off, is on the nose, or hits all the marks. You tell everytime you read a book, or watch a tv show or movie. People KNOW. And I wont say "most" but a clear divide exists, a massive amount of people have all over and over and over in their reviews/etc have fingered the STORY/script as where the film is flawed, and indeed, full of too much hubris. Which is funny because it's karma hitting back at Disney, such that they will learn (hopefully) when writing future SW stories to not piss on things.



That is sooooooooooooo obvious a PR statement. I see these comments all the time in the NFL, when a player says a sexist thing in press-conference, or says something bad on twitter and then later claims someone hacked their account. They're all forced to apologize in exactly the same scripted apology, even tho there's truly no contrition there, they carry on how they did, or they keep saying the same thing that got them in trouble weeks later.

Impressive. Everything you just posted was wrong.

Lucas’ original vision for 9 movies had the final battle between Vader and Luke in front of the Emperor occurring in Episode 9. He didn’t go ahead with that plan because when Leigh Brackett died he just didn’t have the creative sounding board he used to bounce and hone ideas with. Look at the mess that 1-3 were when Lucas’ creativity remains unchecked. So what he did was condense the conflict of Vader - which was supposed to be seen in the original Episode 6 but referred to in passing by Luke in ROTJ (“There is good in him, I’ve felt it”) into one movie.

In other words - Episode 1-3 were meant to be about the fall of Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi/Republic, Episode 4-6 were meant to be about the rise of Darth Vader and the Empire, and Episode 7-9 were meant to be about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and the return of the Jedi.

The EU has absolutely nothing to do with what Lucas envisioned, and he’s often said that the EU is it’s own thing and he hadn’t even read any of the stories.

As for the saga not moving forward - I guess we should tell the people who fought WW2 that they were just a rehash of WW1 and there was no point to it. When Luke arrogantly says “I’ll never turn to the dark side”, he’s not even aware that he actually did when he cut off his own father’s hand. So yes, hubris was still apparent in Luke, because he felt as the Jedi did that everything had to be black and white. He chucked his lightsaber away as a statement that he wouldn’t succumb to his emotions anymore...but that didn’t mean he had ascended into this superhuman that didn’t feel anything or wasn’t capable of letting that happen again.

 

[Moti]

With all due respect, it’s been repeated ad nauseam, but basically the films major plot lines. Rey’s parentage, Snoke etc.

Problem was, all that was fine if it served to develop the story if the major plot lines of TFA were red herrings. It didn’t.

It scratched the surface with the balance of light and dark and the true purpose of the Jedi, then by the end of the movie it circles around back to Kylo and the First Order (bad) vs Rey and the Resistance (Good).

It didn't ignore at all, it answered in a way people aren't happy with. It was unsatisfying.

 

[Ry009]

I don’t ask this in a condescending manner, in all honesty, can someone explain how TLJ used TFA to pivot/springboard into a something that is unfamiliar within the Star Wars universe by the conclusion of the film?

 

[Firestarter]

Oh so you’re also dismissing your precious professional reviews that have critize the film....there’s quite a few of them out there btw but I guess they are just fanbois or halfwits

The reviews are only objective and valid when they suit your agenda? I don’t dismiss that there are postitive reviews and I don’t hate on anyone for likening the film.

What I do hate is argorant people like you that can dismiss views and resort to name calling because they don’t suit your agenda.

So far we have “emotional intelligence” “subtexts” “infers” and now “neck beards” to insult others that don’t agree with the positive reviews of the film.

Christ. "Neckbeard" is the most inane insult to have poisoned my screen in the last 8 months. Wtf does that even mean?

 

[glenferry23]

That is sooooooooooooo obvious a PR statement. I see these comments all the time in the NFL, when a player says a sexist thing in press-conference, or says something bad on twitter and then later claims someone hacked their account. They're all forced to apologize in exactly the same scripted apology, even tho there's truly no contrition there, they carry on how they did, or they keep saying the same thing that got them in trouble weeks later.

Yep, it’s pretty obvious I would’ve thought. Whatever suits the narrative though hey.

To borrow one of the buzzwords from this thread, there’s some clear subtext here

 

[Mootsy]

Btw, regarding Mary Sue....good brief way it was explained that i read elsewhere....

There is no doubting that is all to do with selling the super-hero angle of Rey, clearly intentional and probably not even the directors decision, sadly. Not the end of the world but it does effect how the story plays out.

Perhaps why Rian seems annoyed by the first movie arc.

He seems to be laughing back at the first movie in TLJ, perhaps he ends snoke as a FU to not giving Luke any screen time, making Rey a super hero and ending Han etc..

I don’t think he had enough time to give every character backstory, this should have been done in TFA.

JJ thought he only had one film and same with Rian, I think this is why we see what seems to be two films that cram so much in and don’t flow as well they could.

The problem is the writers are making one film, not writing 3 films at the same time, so it’s not collaborative, it’s handing the responsibility off to the next to write something then full stop.

Instead of the continuity of just writhing one big story and cutting it down to three.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I don’t ask this in a condescending manner, in all honesty, can someone explain how TLJ used TFA to pivot/springboard into a something that is unfamiliar within the Star Wars universe by the conclusion of the film?

It threw it all away that's how it did it.

 

[exe ex machina]

I don’t ask this in a condescending manner, in all honesty, can someone explain how TLJ used TFA to pivot/springboard into a something that is unfamiliar within the Star Wars universe by the conclusion of the film?

As said above....it's not that it pivoted away from "star wars" but that it totally ignored/neglected all the things that JJ tried to set up for the entire three parts of the ST. That's really poor writing to not develop those set ups, but essentially throw them all away, or just gloss over them.

SKB -- never even mentioned among the characters
The destruction of SKB should've set back the FO some in terms of armed forces -- but TLJ picks up literally a few minutes after TFA, and yet the FO is stronger and the Resistance is weak and fractured and no other allies coming to their aid despite the massive victory against SKB.
Who Snoke is -- not answered and killed straight out (the killing of him is ok, but not answering anything about him after 2 years of anticipation was a big crap on fans too.
Who Rey is -- TFA set her up as being related to someone, Treverrow even said her reveal would be satisfying for SW fans (he planned her to be related to either Luke, or Sheev, or Obi-Wan). But RJ wanted again to troll the fanbase and undo the set up by JJ with all the visions and lightsaber calling her.
KoR -- set up by JJ to play an on-screen role, indeed there initially was a scene on Ahch-To where the KoR and Kylo land there to confront Rey/Luke. Tho they're hinted at in the flashback between Luke/Kylo, they're not named, and not even seen (whereas TFA did show them on-screen).
Etc etc

 

[exe ex machina]

In saying all that....

JJ could undo/fix some of that by featuring the KoR on-screen in some big important scenes, or their own sub-plot. Could make Kylo saying what he did to Rey in TLJ a lie to try to get her to join him, and she still is related to someone like Obi-Wan say. Snoke could either come back, because they killed a false image of Snoke (given the VD says he hides his self even among those with direct contact with him), or could expound on Snoke's backstory in some exposition scene. For the purpose of the trilogy, it's probably best to advance Kylo to supreme leader rather than bring Snoke back, but some exposition on who he was might still happen.