List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 1

[Hayes4PM]

I was'nt at the game, but Long to me seemed to be trying, which is more than you can say for a lot of them.

Agreed, he attacked the ball a few times where he could have got cleaned up.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

cuts both ways. clarko also didnt have free agency, the ability to stock pile cap credits, the ability to future trade. the ability to syphon off talent from home sick sydney/queensland talent. he had to defeat a side that had the very relaxed father son rules.

i think the argument that richo is on par with clarko here isnt going to wash with anyone. stinks of excuses.

oh and btw the compromised drafts were over by the team richo got there

oh and all these new draft set backs didnt stop the dogs.

and how has free agency worked out for us ? its specifically free agency that has worsened our position the future trading of pick aslo has been a negative in years gone by a team like hawthorne could not have used future pick to get trades in that then mean clubs like ours with better picks were able to take a better position to the trade table.. stockpiling picks has brought clubs who were out of contention for trades back into the conversation and for a club like ours that has been a handicap not a bonus ..
iv never said they were on par with eachother .. im saying that Clarko's message would be just as lost as Richo's message on field with our current team cause we dont have the leaders to drive the message home ..

and on the final note with the dogs .. it is again about the gap in age and experiance demographic .. lets break it down easier ... there a four tiers of players ..
you got your Vets (Roo , Joey , Fisher and Dempster)
you got your Rxperiance the 200 gamers the guys who are meant to be taking charge (Gears and Armo are just outside of this )
you got your up and comers - the guys on the list 5-7 years we got bucket loads of them
and the youth under 4 years still potentials ...

at the moment we have two of thse tiers of players and the tiers we are missing are the ones who provide the most leadership ... i reckon we and maybe Freo are the worst placed with this gap in players .. and its biting us hard

 

[Hayes4PM]

With respect it should include Brown , Gilbert , Hickey , Stephens in that group.
and pay out Armo ....problem is some bright spark in recruiting left us stuff all picks in next years draft.

Only hope is adding Sloane, Gaff .

Brown keeps his spot due to lack of depth, Hickey too, and Hickey's best is good if he can get back to it, I'm with you regarding Gilbert and Stephens. Koby just doesn't seem to put together complete games and Gilbert is a well established/loved clubman. If he was let go at the end of the year though I'd be happy.

 

[Mowman]

With respect it should include Brown , Gilbert , Hickey , Stephens in that group.
and pay out Armo ....problem is some bright spark in recruiting left us stuff all picks in next years draft.

Only hope is adding Sloane, Gaff .

Yep going into a really good draft with no 2nd rounder

 

[triggering bro]

I just hope blokes like GOAT, Billings & Dunstan don’t ask for a trade. That’s our future & we need them to stick fat. I reckon we have some real talent on our list but for whatever reason they are not getting the best out of themselves consistently enough.

 

[Stewart66]

Brown keeps his spot due to lack of depth, Hickey too, and Hickey's best is good if he can get back to it, I'm with you regarding Gilbert and Stephens. Koby just doesn't seem to put together complete games and Gilbert is a well established/loved clubman. If he was let go at the end of the year though I'd be happy.

Sorry don’t share the confidence in Tom improving myself , seeing him getting thrashed by nearly every VFL
ruckman last year.
Brown maybe kept but really hope myself Austin / Goddard come on this year and force change .

 

[StCicatriz]

and how has free agency worked out for us ? its specifically free agency that has worsened our position the future trading of pick aslo has been a negative in years gone by a team like hawthorne could not have used future pick to get trades in that then mean clubs like ours with better picks were able to take a better position to the trade table.. stockpiling picks has brought clubs who were out of contention for trades back into the conversation and for a club like ours that has been a handicap not a bonus ..
iv never said they were on par with eachother .. im saying that Clarko's message would be just as lost as Richo's message on field with our current team cause we dont have the leaders to drive the message home ..

and on the final note with the dogs .. it is again about the gap in age and experiance demographic .. lets break it down easier ... there a four tiers of players ..
you got your Vets (Roo , Joey , Fisher and Dempster)
you got your Rxperiance the 200 gamers the guys who are meant to be taking charge (Gears and Armo are just outside of this )
you got your up and comers - the guys on the list 5-7 years we got bucket loads of them
and the youth under 4 years still potentials ...

at the moment we have two of thse tiers of players and the tiers we are missing are the ones who provide the most leadership ... i reckon we and maybe Freo are the worst placed with this gap in players .. and its biting us hard

see thats where i disagree. clarko's message went be lost 5 seasons in, because he would have developed the leadership in the first two seasons, max, under his watch. that would be there when he needed it.

i reckon clarko would have this list playing finals. IMO

the free agency lever had benefited us, we just didnt use it properly. look what we got for goddard, mcevoy, dal santo + what we got in membrey and what we could have got if we played finals when we thought we were going too

thats before you look at the bi product of indirect trades

 

[plugger66]

Sorry don’t share the confidence in Tom improving myself , seeing him getting thrashed by nearly every VFL
ruckman last year.
Brown maybe kept but really hope myself Austin / Goddard come on this year and force change .

Maybe he lacked confidence because the year before he was very good. Certainly better than Longers best.

 

[Mowman]

Sorry don’t share the confidence in Tom improving myself , seeing him getting thrashed by nearly every VFL
ruckman last year.
Brown maybe kept but really hope myself Austin / Goddard come on this year and force change .

Don't see him on our list next year not even competitive in games last year

 

[StCicatriz]

I think we only have about 6 players from pre Richo era. Gilbert and Hickey are some of them. Richmond rebuilt at the same time And failed getting players like Tambling instead of buddy. Bad recruiting makes bad coaches.

off the top of my head:
geary
roberton
savage
webster
ross
steven
armitage
longer
bruce
newnes

10/22


i bet if you find it back to richos 4th season it would be even larger

 

[Hayes4PM]

Sorry don’t share the confidence in Tom improving myself , seeing him getting thrashed by nearly every VFL
ruckman last year.
Brown maybe kept but really hope myself Austin / Goddard come on this year and force change .

I'm hoping Goddard forces his way into the defence by the end of the year. He showed pretty good speed/athleticism for a bloke his size back in 2016. Him and Carlisle as our 2 big backs with Roberton also chipping in would be a solid tall 3 backs for a few years to come. Hickey, well, who the **** knows. Played one of the worst individual games I've ever seen past year, but he's also towelled up good ruckmen in his time as well.

 

[plugger66]

Don't see him on our list next year not even competitive in games last year

None of his AFL games last year were as bad as Billys 2 this year. I suppose it depends what you see.

 

[StCicatriz]

but you are looking at footy in 2008 to footy 10 years later the draft was not compromised back then .. im not discrediting Hawthorn they have done a spectacular job but we have had multiple roadblocks infront of us that hawthorn hasnt had .. the task of Richo has been harder than that of the task Clarko had .. not saying it was easy for clarko but it was easier than what Richo walked into

i cant agree. its the easy conclussion to come to when one system works and the other fails

is it easier now for clarko now? his list is shot. similar to us in 2012.

 

[triggering bro]

None of his AFL games last year were as bad as Billys 2 this year. I suppose it depends what you see.

Both are shizen, better off seeing what marshal has got

 

[StCicatriz]

going off the hawthorn list these guys :
2004
1 Peter Everitt 29yr 194 Games AA: 1997, 1998
2 Nick Holland 29yr 163 Games
3 Jonathan Hay 24yr 119 Games AA: 2001
4 Rayden Tallis 28yr 156 Games
7 Luke McCabe 27yr 132 Games
9 Shane Crawford 29yr 222 Games AA: 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002; Brownlow: 1999; MVP: 1999;
11 Joel Smith 26yr 143 games AA: 2001, 2003
21 Richard Vandenberg 27yr 83 Games
27 John Barker 29yr 145 Games
37 Angelo Lekkas 27yr 149 Games

2005 :
1 Peter Everitt
2 Nick Holland
9 Shane Crawford
27 John Barker
20 Simon Beaumont
37 Angelo Lekkas
21 Richard Vandenberg
11 Joel Smith

2006:
1 Peter Everitt
9 Shane Crawford
27 John Barker
21 Richard Vandenberg
11 Joel Smith
19 Ben Dixon

thats fair bit to learn off ... and as they were retiring the next level down were stepping up .. at the moment we dont have that at all

ok now do something similar for st kilda:

2014
Clinton Jones 30 yrs 133 games
Lenny Hayes 34 yrs 277 games AA 2003, 2005, 2009 Norm Smith 2010
Leigh Montagna 30 yrs 212 games AA 2009, 2010
Nick Riewoldt 31 yrs 259 games AA 2004, 2006, 2008 MVP 2004
Adam Schneider 29 yrs 200 games flag 2005
Sam Gilbert 27 yrs 140 games
Farren Ray 28 yrs 176 games
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008
Gwilt 109 games 27 yrs 109 games

border line: Geary (>90 games), Steven (>70 games), Armitage (>90 games)

2015
Leigh Montagna
Nick Riewoldt
Adam Schneider
Sam Gilbert
Farren Ray
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008

border line: Geary (>100 games), Steven (>90 games), Armitage (>100 games), Savage (> 70 games)

2016
Leigh Montagna
Nick Riewoldt
Sam Gilbert
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008

border line: Geary (>120 games), Steven (>110 games), Armitage (>100 games), Savage (>90 games), Carlisle (>85 games), Roberton (>80 games)

In summary:
Year 1: Stk 10 v Hfc 10
Year 2: Stk 7 v Hfc 8
Year 3: Stk 5 v Hfc 6

So you can see there really isnt a difference, which is no surprise given our list build was designed by Chris Pelchen based on the experiences of hawthorn

 

[plugger66]

Both are shizen, better off seeing what marshal has got

He wasn't fit enough to run a half out in a JLT game so what hope would he have in a proper game. if I was going to be silly with who rucks id go real silly and pick Gilbert and see if we can beat them around the packs. Obviously that wont happen.

 

[triggering bro]

He wasn't fit enough to run a half out in a JLT game so what hope would he have in a proper game. if I was going to be silly with who rucks id go real silly and pick Gilbert and see if we can beat them around the packs. Obviously that wont happen.

Don’t let Marshall come off the ground. Force him to work until he faints. Let’s see what his ticker is made of.

You need to give up on your Hickey dream. He’s gone, mentally shot.

Longer is obese & we need to find someone else. Enter Marshall.

 

[sunny3193]

Maybe he lacked confidence because the year before he was very good. Certainly better than Longers best.

I hope you’re right.
He was really terrible last year, seemed to be playing without any spark.
He got towelled by some ordinary VFL grade opponents.
Couldn’t seem to get separation, even with his around ground strength.
Couldn’t get off the ground either.
Whatever was hampering him, I noticed that he spent some time with the rehab group over summer.
Maybe the issue has resolved and he now only lacks match fitness.
I suppose we will know more on Saturday afternoon.

 

[VDS66]

Really not sure what this Clarko v Richo is all about. No brainer really.

If we had a choice between the two at the time and we chose Richo then fair enough. Even then differenterent lists would yield different outcomes.

You can pull teams, lists and coaches out of your arse to find examples that suit your argument.

And none of it does anything to address our problems.

Hawks were absolute shizen for most of the nighties... They were such a basket case they tried to merge them. They changed coaches... But it wasn't until they got their list right that they tasted success.

They deliberately traded players for picks then topped up where required.

Combine that with landing a good coach and the rest is history.

If we want to go all historical, we didn't churn enough after 10/11.

We then hit compromised drafts, combined with shit recruiting under Lyon.

In 2012 we had some cream players and nothing else. A massive chasm in our list.

We are now at the other extreme.

Unfortunately you simply cannot make instant changes and any radical changes can only be made at years end.

Thats why I keep saying that you have to wait and see how the year plays out before understanding where the weaknesses are.

 

[bird_man]

are you for real .... they had Crafw running the mids Guerra in the backline Stewie Dew up front , they had Croad as a seasoned campaigner and this handy liitl player in Buddy who had just won the coleman.. the year earlier they had made the finals falling short in week two most of their team had finals experiance , they ended up over shooting expectation with the flag but they were far advanced as a team as to where we are now

100% for real.

Croad was an average footballer at Freo and became a very good backman when he went back to Hawthorn, he was hardly a leader at Freo. Guerra was traded away from us as a forward pocket who wasn’t at all what I would call a leader at St Kilda. They became leaders at Hawthorn.

Mentioning a 21 year old Buddy Franklin just helps prove my point. Clarkson and his coaching staff were able to turn guys like Buddy, Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Roughead etc into very strong leaders. None of those guys had to be brought in from other clubs did they?

And I’m not saying we don’t look at brining in leaders, but one isn’t going to all of a sudden shoot us into contention.

 

[Stewart66]

I'm hoping Goddard forces his way into the defence by the end of the year. He showed pretty good speed/athleticism for a bloke his size back in 2016. Him and Carlisle as our 2 big backs with Roberton also chipping in would be a solid tall 3 backs for a few years to come. Hickey, well, who the **** knows. Played one of the worst individual games I've ever seen past year, but he's also towelled up good ruckmen in his time as well.

Have high hopes for Clavarino too back & Battle forward.

Yeah few supporters keep banging on about Tom being good a while back , look at Matthew Lobbe
2013 ...2014 was one of the best in the competition lost confidence ...can’t even beat Casboult for a spot.

Really like what Marshall could offer, mobile , nice kick given right development.

 

[DGontheQT]

Agreed, he attacked the ball a few times where he could have got cleaned up.

Ben Long is a poor mans Liam Ryan or Tim Kelly. (Ryan and Kelly at least can win their own ball.) Our Recruiting is downright depressing. Every now and then we jag a good one , but that's not a reason to let our recruiters off the hook. Against North , Ben Long did show a glimpse of sublime skills , but then Spencer White flashed it back when he played. (Couldn't get a kick in a stampede though) First and Foremost you must be able to win your own ball. I am not questioning his courage though.

 

[DGontheQT]

Have high hopes for Clavarino too back & Battle forward.

Yeah few supporters keep banging on about Tom being good a while back , look at Matthew Lobbe
2013 ...2014 was one of the best in the competition lost confidence ...can’t even beat Casboult for a spot.

Really like what Marshall could offer, mobile , nice kick given right development.

Agreed. It is a perfect time to play him.(Marshall) Played well in the AFLX and against Coburg , and seems to have vastly improved.

 

[borderbarry]

I would prefer for Marshall to have his next game playing second ruckman to either Longer or Hickey, but we might not have that kuzury

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

ok now do something similar for st kilda:

2014
Clinton Jones 30 yrs 133 games
Lenny Hayes 34 yrs 277 games AA 2003, 2005, 2009 Norm Smith 2010
Leigh Montagna 30 yrs 212 games AA 2009, 2010
Nick Riewoldt 31 yrs 259 games AA 2004, 2006, 2008 MVP 2004
Adam Schneider 29 yrs 200 games flag 2005
Sam Gilbert 27 yrs 140 games
Farren Ray 28 yrs 176 games
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008
Gwilt 109 games 27 yrs 109 games

border line: Geary (>90 games), Steven (>70 games), Armitage (>90 games)

2015
Leigh Montagna
Nick Riewoldt
Adam Schneider
Sam Gilbert
Farren Ray
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008

border line: Geary (>100 games), Steven (>90 games), Armitage (>100 games), Savage (> 70 games)

2016
Leigh Montagna
Nick Riewoldt
Sam Gilbert
Dempster 30 yrs 160 games AA 2012 flag 2005
Fisher 31 yrs 191 games AA 2008

border line: Geary (>120 games), Steven (>110 games), Armitage (>100 games), Savage (>90 games), Carlisle (>85 games), Roberton (>80 games)

In summary:
Year 1: Stk 10 v Hfc 10
Year 2: Stk 7 v Hfc 8
Year 3: Stk 5 v Hfc 6

So you can see there really isnt a difference, which is no surprise given our list build was designed by Chris Pelchen based on the experiences of hawthorn

now move that to year 4 .... we got no-one over 200 games ... the only two with finals experiance is Gilbo and Brown now lets look at it in the way of who these players are from our list we have one player who is an assistant coach . Hawthorn have John Barker who coached Carlton for a intrim Stewart Dew now coaching GCS , Guerra is now at Freo.. we had the top end leadership but the next level down you only have Armo and Gears ... and now they are the top of that tree ... Clarkson is a great coach who develops leaders but without them then he comes back in the pack.. Richo is trying to build leaders but with that experiance gap he is asking more of guys who are less capable at the moment