Why boycotting Israel matters

[AM]

Nothing all the new here. The Yanks have been keeping Israel afloat almost since the invasion.

 

[smokingjacket]

Bibi's gone full Thucydides

The TL was full of people calling the speech fash but it's a statement of common sense.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

It doesn't matter who was there first. It doesn't matter what the territory, mandate, holding, territory, etc was called. Various peoples and cultures lived and still live on the land. It belongs to ALL.

Earth is the Jewish homeland.
Earth is the Muslim homeland
Earth is the... etc.

Hate, while a powerful motivator, is ultimately a f*cking useless and self-defeating emotion. It clouds judgement. It divides. It hurts. It kills. A Jew who hates Muslims is lost. A Muslim who hates Jews is lost.

Both sides have to acknowledge this and end the bullshit.

 

[its free real estate]

It doesn't matter who was there first. It doesn't matter what the territory, mandate, holding, territory, etc was called. Various peoples and cultures lived and still live on the land. It belongs to ALL.

Earth is the Jewish homeland.
Earth is the Muslim homeland
Earth is the... etc.

Hate, while a powerful motivator, is ultimately a f*cking useless and self-defeating emotion. It clouds judgement. It divides. It hurts. It kills. A Jew who hates Muslims is lost. A Muslim who hates Jews is lost.

Both sides have to acknowledge this and end the bullshit.

Ok Jesus

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ok Jesus

Yea, verily

"And its free real estate gave up a generous weekly tithe of beer and gai pad med mamuang to Geelong_Sicko, and both saw that it was good"

 

[AM]

It doesn't matter who was there first. It doesn't matter what the territory, mandate, holding, territory, etc was called. Various peoples and cultures lived and still live on the land. It belongs to ALL.

Earth is the Jewish homeland.
Earth is the Muslim homeland
Earth is the... etc.

Hate, while a powerful motivator, is ultimately a f*cking useless and self-defeating emotion. It clouds judgement. It divides. It hurts. It kills. A Jew who hates Muslims is lost. A Muslim who hates Jews is lost.

Both sides have to acknowledge this and end the bullshit.

You really don't have the foggiest idea of the history of the region, the gigantic power difference, the occupation or the decades of oppression and violation of basic human rights. Or the flouting international law and conventions by the occupying force.

Let me put a simple proposition to you. Your family has possessed a property since Adam was a child. It was passed down through the generations and used for your livelihood. An invading force arrives on your doorstep with state of the art weaponry, threateningly and menacingly telling you are gunpoint they are taking your families property kicking you off thereby not only robbing you of your home but your livelihood too. You have no means of defence. They then proceed to do the same to all your neighbours. Do you reckon when you have no power they will agree to you suggesting sitting down and working things through? Bullies and tyrants don't operate that way. Haven't through history.

Israel has not only ignored requests to cease the annexation of land, the oppression of a comparatively powerless people they have increased it under the unscrupulous leadership of a man facing charges of corruption - his wife too.

It's no accident that the numbers of decent and honourable Israelis are stepping forward and saying 'not in our name'. Soldiers from "Breaking the Silence" who have been traumatised by what the Zionists have forced them to do. Rabbis who have said "We will not stand idly by and see our neighbours blood shed" Wonderful Israeli schoolchildren who have refused to join the occupying army and be part of the continued oppression. The "Jews for Justice" and "Jewish Voice for Peace" and many more.

Have a look at the gigantic difference in the figures of those killed and injured, particularly the innocents. Or the number of political prisoners held by the Zionists.

There is no incentive for the Zionists to have peace. There economy relies on continued tension in the region and to ensure it keeps the nearly $11 million a day America gifts Israel. Estimated to be $23.000 per Israeli Jewish family.

In order to achieve what another recently formed compassionate Israeli group wants, which is :

Achieve equality for all the citizens of the state regardless of religion, national origin, race, gender or sexual orientation;

Realize the civil and human rights of all individuals and groups through the protection of Palestinian citizens and other marginalized minorities, including the advancement of collective rights, and opposition to all forms of discrimination and bigotry

the tyrannical Zionists need to be forced to the negotiating table and boycotts are an effective way to do it. And the Zionists shouldn't complain about any unfairness as they've practiced boycotts themselves.

Understand the history, the power imbalance and who loses if there was peace.

 

[Fat Yak]

Can there ever be peace while we have imam's quoting sacred texts actually call for the killing of Jews?

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).



https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...s/news-story/20b6b2760eecd0fd8ef4915b5c7b8b50

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

You really don't have the foggiest idea of the history of the region, the gigantic power difference, the occupation or the decades of oppression and violation of basic human rights. Or the flouting international law and conventions by the occupying force...

I do... That's why I call for an evening-out of the power balance. By outside force of arms if necessary. Militant Zionists (Israel belongs to Jews and Jews ALONE) must be sidelined and have no say in the future of that nation. The hardline Islamic faction from Palestine (Palestine belongs to Muslims and Muslims ALONE) must be sidelined and have no say in the future of that nation either.

There can be a bi or multi-national nation. I believe there must be. One where the Israeli jackboot is lifted from Palestinian throats. One where Jewish folk can go about their business without the fear of getting shot, stabbed, blown up or otherwise maimed.

Both sides must re-assess what it means to treat the other with the human dignity and the respect that they deserve. It is up to the mainstream to forge ahead with nation-building and leave the extremists of all stripes behind.

In Washington, the lobbying power of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee must first be blunted and then negated entirely. The evangelical Christian Right, for so long an enabler of bloodshed in that part of the world through their dogged belief in so-called 'end times prophecy' must be forever prevented from meddling in national affairs.

Same goes for whatever lobbying power hardline Islam has at its disposal.

I recognise the suffering that has already gone by. I know that there will be more suffering to come. But for f*ck's sake, both sides need to see each other as human beings and find some common ground if there's going to be any progress at all.

 

[AM]

Agree with most of your post Geelong_Sicko. Particularly the last para. However, while one side has nothing to gain and much to lose by easing tension they will continue to ignore growing public outrage, defy international law and conventions and continue with the oppression and annexation. Tyrannical leaders know no other way.

As a mate of mine says when folk put attractive but largely unfeasible propositions, I tried to move to utopia but couldn't find the passport.

How can you deal rationally with a leader who preaches hate and maintaining power over the powerless and is supported in doing so by Trumps dump. As Jeremy quite rightly exclaims "Holy s**t"

 

[medusala]

Let me put a simple proposition to you. Your family has possessed a property since Adam was a child

The saracens werent about then.

An invading force arrives on your doorstep with state of the art weaponry, threateningly and menacingly telling you are gunpoint they are taking your families property kicking you off thereby not only robbing you of your home but your livelihood too. You have no means of defence. They then proceed to do the same to all your neighbours

What about the Christians whose land it was before the Saracens turned up?

The time has come
A fact's a fact
It belongs to them
Let's give it back

 

[medusala]

. There economy relies on continued tension in the region and to ensure it keeps the nearly $11 million a day America gifts Israel. Estimated to be $23.000 per Israeli Jewish family.

Not sure about your maths there.

 

[Fat Yak]

The question of late Arab and Muslim immigration to Palestine
Whether there was significant Arab and Muslim immigration into Palestine during the 19th and 20th centuries, especially after the beginning of Zionist settlement there in the late 19th century has become a matter of some controversy. It is known that the Arab population of Palestine doubled during the British Mandate era, from 670,000 in 1922 to over 1.2 million in 1948, and there has been considerable debate over the subject on how much of this growth was due to natural increase, as opposed to immigration. Estimates on the scope of Arab immigration to Palestine during this period vary.

According to David Grossman, statistics show the number of Egyptian immigrants to Palestine between 1829 and 1841 exceeded 15,000, and he estimated that it was at least 23,000 and possibly up to 30,000.[41] In 1860, there was significant immigration to Safed by Moorish (i.e. Arab-Berber) tribes from Algeria and a small number of Kurds, while some 6,000 Arabs from the Beni Sakhr tribe immigrated to Palestine from what is now Jordan to settle in Tiberias. In addition, considerable numbers of Turks stationed in Palestine to garrison the land settled there.[42]

In 1878, following Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, many Bosnian Muslims, apprehensive of living under Christian rule, emigrated to the Ottoman Empire, and significant numbers went to Palestine, where most adopted the surname Bushnak. To this day, Bushnak remains a common surname among Palestinians of Bosnian origin.[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

 

[AM]

Enormous kudos to the honourable and honest folk from Jews for Justice For Palestinians for having the courage to call it as it is despite threats and intimidation from occupiers and oppressors.

“A worldwide coalition of Jewish groups has issued a joint statement condemning attempts to stifle criticism of Israel with false accusations of antisemitism.

“But genuine anti-racist principles surely lead us to criticise Israel for its many discriminatory policies, whether its segregated road network, its dual justice system, or the “Jewish nation state” bill passed on Wednesday, which entrenches ethnic inequality in law. Perversely labelling critics of this racism “antisemitic” also silences Palestinians who object to Israel’s historic and ongoing takeover of their land. Meanwhile, the idea of “double standards” has been used to attack the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. Supporters of Israel claim that unless all human rights-abusing nation states are boycotted, there must be some antisemitic motivation lurking behind calls for BDS.”

“This deliberately ignores three points. Firstly, Palestinians have collectively called for solidarity through BDS until their fundamental human rights are upheld, including the right of return for refugees. Secondly, via military, financial and diplomatic support, our governments are deeply complicit in Israel’s violations, whereas this is not the case with, say, the Syrian government’s crimes. Thirdly, precisely because of this direct involvement, implementing a boycott strategy here can make real impact, just as the boycott of South Africa – on which BDS is modelled – helped to bring an end to apartheid there.”

Palestinians living in Gaza are subjected to prison-like conditions and are now being murdered in their dozens.

 

[its free real estate]

Let me put a simple proposition to you. Your family has possessed a property since Adam was a child. It was passed down through the generations and used for your livelihood. An invading force arrives on your doorstep with state of the art weaponry, threateningly and menacingly telling you are gunpoint they are taking your families property kicking you off thereby not only robbing you of your home but your livelihood too.

R u talking about the Umayyads, the Hellenes or the Crusaders?

 

[Proud SJW]

Are those the only choices?

 

[Proud SJW]

It doesn't matter who was there first. It doesn't matter what the territory, mandate, holding, territory, etc was called. Various peoples and cultures lived and still live on the land. It belongs to ALL.

Earth is the Jewish homeland.
Earth is the Muslim homeland
Earth is the... etc.

Hate, while a powerful motivator, is ultimately a f*cking useless and self-defeating emotion. It clouds judgement. It divides. It hurts. It kills. A Jew who hates Muslims is lost. A Muslim who hates Jews is lost.

Both sides have to acknowledge this and end the bullshit.

Well, no, not really.
Hate exists as a powerful emotion because it is exactly that, in evolutionary terms. A powerful, driving evolutionary force. It might be one (if not "the") reason we're here and not the Neanderthals, or one of several other hominid species.

Don't underestimate hate. It generally knows exactly what it's doing.
The only problem, of course, is when it appears on both sides... and with good reason.

I don't even see how it clouds judgment any more than any other emotion does. Are you saying love doesn't cloud judgment?
Who is a Jew who hates Muslims lost to? Who is a Muslim who hates Jews lost to? Or, rather, lost to what, exactly?

What is this bullshit you're typing in?
I demand an explanation.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Who is a Jew who hates Muslims lost to? Who is a Muslim who hates Jews lost to? Or, rather, lost to what, exactly?

Lost to the idea that they can share their nation as equals. In Northern Ireland you have holdouts, extreme views that want all or nothing for their particular side. But there's a mainstream, and it's growing, that don't want divisions to destroy their society any more. They're sick of what the Troubles brought them, and the Good Friday Agreement has brought more than a decent amount of peace there. Despite the idiocy that sometimes goes on.

That's just an example. Reject hatred of the other. Go forward as equals. It's not 'bullshit', even if you yourself lack the vision to picture it.

 

[Total Power]

Lost to the idea that they can share their nation as equals. In Northern Ireland you have holdouts, extreme views that want all or nothing for their particular side. But there's a mainstream, and it's growing, that don't want divisions to destroy their society any more. They're sick of what the Troubles brought them, and the Good Friday Agreement has brought more than a decent amount of peace there. Despite the idiocy that sometimes goes on.

That's just an example. Reject hatred of the other. Go forward as equals. It's not 'bullshit', even if you yourself lack the vision to picture it.

Unfortunately your point will be lost in translation. Too many people here are busy picking sides, if you are not with Palestine, then you must be with Israel, if you are not with Russia, then you must be with the US. People here busy politicising their opinions forgetting hatred greed and power should be our enemy and ALL SIDES are guilty of that, some more, some less.

 

[Power Raid]

I'm still stunned that some people support discriminating policy based on race or religion.

The Palestinians and Isreali's both have to learn to live together and get on with life. They are essentially the same blood and essentially the same religion and enjoy the same food. The destructive 10% on either side should not be listened to and dealt with appropriately so the other 90% can live in harmony.

 

[Fat Yak]

This is what Israel is up against. You might be shocked at the extremism of this poor boy who has clearly been brainwashed. The shocking thing though is that he is just reciting word for word from Islamic scripture!

 

[its free real estate]

Are those the only choices?

We can multiply the choices by an order of magnitude, but the point was it was laughable that the people in the Levant in the 1940s had been farming there since Adam.

Lost to the idea that they can share their nation as equals. In Northern Ireland you have holdouts, extreme views that want all or nothing for their particular side. But there's a mainstream, and it's growing, that don't want divisions to destroy their society any more. They're sick of what the Troubles brought them, and the Good Friday Agreement has brought more than a decent amount of peace there. Despite the idiocy that sometimes goes on.

That's just an example. Reject hatred of the other. Go forward as equals. It's not 'bullshit', even if you yourself lack the vision to picture it.

This is a bourgeois luxury.

Violence is the defining state of nature.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

This is a bourgeois luxury.

Violence is the defining state of nature.

Why do we have laws that attempt to curb violence in our society? I'd think that, owing to our intellect, we've largely risen above the kill-or-be-killed violence of survival that we see played out in nature.

'Consent' has no real meaning in nature for instance.

I mean, someone could construe an argument where 'rape' was an essential act for the breeding of stronger individuals because only a stronger male specimen could overpower the female. Our intellect as a species though, and our capacity for empathy and sympathy makes us recognise that 'rape' is a repulsive act to be condemned from all quarters.

 

[Chief]

We can multiply the choices by an order of magnitude, but the point was it was laughable that the people in the Levant in the 1940s had been farming there since Adam.



This is a bourgeois luxury.

Violence is the defining state of nature.

That all natural cancer is a boon to people the world over.

 

[its free real estate]

That all natural cancer is a boon to people the world over.

Do you not like mitosis and gene mutations?

 

[AM]

I'm still stunned that some people support discriminating policy based on race or religion.

The Palestinians and Isreali's both have to learn to live together and get on with life. They are essentially the same blood and essentially the same religion and enjoy the same food. The destructive 10% on either side should not be listened to and dealt with appropriately so the other 90% can live in harmony.

It sounds great PR but it's a utopian view because there is a gigantic power imbalance and it requires good faith on both sides.

Israel is powering along economically with the considerable help of the billions of dollars in aid from the US and because that aid is significantly military they have much to gain by tension remaining. And, as has been shown in another thread, there are many members of the Israel ministry who have a hatred of Palestinians.

Palestinians, on the other hand, live in poverty, terror, witness their land and livelihoods ripped from them and get comparatively little help from the rest of the world. They are largely powerless. Who stands to gain in the event of peace and who stands to lose?

Whenever any hopeful signs of peace emerge it's the Zionists who have snuffed them out. Going back to the last honourable leader, Yitzhak Rabin, who when making strides toward peace was assassinated by one of his own. Up to now where Palestinian land is being annexed by the day with Palestinians thrown off their land in a most inhumane manner.

The ways to peace seems to me to be for the US to stop supporting the occupation and oppression and take action to force Israel to negotiate in good faith. The extremely well organised and powerful Zionist propaganda machine will ensure that never happens. Another is for all the Arab states to form a block in opposition to the tyranny. Again, that is a pipe dream. The most likely is the BDS movement which is having a positive effect. So much so the tyrannical regime in Israel is turning against their own by instituting travel bans on good Jewish folk who want the inhumanity to stop and who speak out against the oppression and in favour of boycotts.