Politics Pros and Cons of modern western civilisation

[Seeds]

Lot of variation in opinion about the legacy of western civilisation. Some think Its evil incarnate whilst others think its the greatest period of mankind (i lean towards the latter). So here is a thread to debate. Populate with pros and cons so we can all get a better understanding of how the west differs from the rest and what it has contributed.

First of all what do we mean by modern western civilisation. We certainly are not talking about the highly religious and incredibly backwards, even for its time, middle ages. The roots of modern western civilisation probably started around the time of the renaissance and after the black plague but really didnt take off until the enlightenment and industrial revolution.


Pros of western civilisation

Rebirth of representative democracy and removal of power based on bloodlines.

Seperation of state power.

Strong promotion and enforcement of Rule of law

Welfare state that provided for the unemployed, disabled, abandoned, sick and ensured education for all.

Promotion of creative destruction that incentivised technology development and uptake for private citizens which greatly improved living standards

Shift away from family rights to individual rights. People rewards and debts are now based more off their own actions rather then their parternal ancestors and family.

Dramatic improvements in medicine has increased the wellbeing of the living.

Focus on the scientific method as the true source of knowledge

Dramatic improvements in agriculture efficiency has ended poverty and famines and increased life expectancy.

Dramatic improvements in the understanding of physics has greatly improved our resource efficiency, ability to communicate, ability to harness energy and ability to travel

First civilisation to properly recognise that discrimination based on gender and race hurts the well being of many citizens and should be rectified.

Greatly improved our knowledge of what it means to be human, where we come from and the universe we live in. This includes the theory of evolution, recognition that there is only a physical plane and no spirtual beings or planes, developments in neurosciences.

Has helped drive the unification of human societies to act according to common rules through institutions such as the UN. Early attempts at this would be a con but since the 1950s it is now becoming a big pro.

Organised sport.

Classical music, jazz, heavy metal, progressive music.

Flushable toilet and tap water

Internet


Cons of western civilisation

Brought slavery back in vogue, atleast for a period.

Spread the idea of marxism to the rest of the world which sent many economies backwards and lead to some pretty serious famines and even genocides

Social darwinisn and the more extreme version: Nazism.

Opiom wars

Treatment of natives in africa and america.

Rampant Consumerism and a focus solely on gdp as a measure of wellbeing.

Country music

Failure to appropriately regulate banking and money creation to prevent extreme financial cycles.

The spread of nuclear weopans.

Failure to properly implement representative democracy and enabling political parties to be greatly influenced by private money.

Crypto currency

Tv and radio advertisements

Accelerated climate change and environmental pressures (although the west is also leading the charge to solve this issue).





Please add more pros and cons?

For me the pros clearly outweigh the cons as many of the cons are temporary downsides where many of the pros are permanent improvements in the world from the perspective of man.

 

[its free real estate]

Pros: responsible for around 90% of humanity's greatest achievements

Cons: prone to navel gazing to the point where it becomes self-loathing and denies said achievements.

 

[Malifice]

Pros: responsible for around 90% of humanity's greatest achievements.

And 90 percent of humanities worst achievements.

Development of atomic weapons (and their use), World Wars 1 and 2, Colonialism, the Holocaust, the largest theatre of war in history, the Cold war and constant threat of global nuclear annhilation, the invention and rise of Fascism, Nazism, Marxism and ultra nationalism etc.

There is always this weird European and American exceptionalism that floats around when we label other cultures or ethnic groups as 'violent' or 'barbaric'. Europeans are no different. Heck. Europe (barring the interval since WW 2) the whole region has largely been in a state of continuous war, and the site of some of the worlds most brutal genocides and pogroms, atrocities and invasions, the planets most brutal and notorious dictators and so forth.

For every great liberal leader, or advocate of peace Europe has produced a brutal tyrant or genocidal monster.

I think we're largely ignorant of it in this generation due to an unprecedented 70 years of peace on the European continent, and the dismantling of the few remaining Fascist regimes (Franco, Salizar etc) and the stabilising influence of the EU.

God help us if the EU fails and it goes back to how it was.

 

[its free real estate]

And 90 percent of humanities worst achievements.

Development of atomic weapons (and their use), World Wars 1 and 2, Colonialism, the Holocaust, the largest theatre of war in history, the Cold war and constant threat of global nuclear annhilation, the invention and rise of Fascism, Nazism, Marxism and ultra nationalism etc.

There is always this weird European and American exceptionalism that floats around when we label other cultures or ethnic groups as 'violent' or 'barbaric'. Europeans are no different. Heck. Europe (barring the interval since WW 2) the whole region has largely been in a state of continuous war, and the site of some of the worlds most brutal genocides and pogroms, atrocities and invasions, the planets most brutal and notorious dictators and so forth.

For every great liberal leader, or advocate of peace Europe has produced a brutal tyrant or genocidal monster.

I think we're largely ignorant of it in this generation due to an unprecedented 70 years of peace on the European continent, and the dismantling of the few remaining Fascist regimes (Franco, Salizar etc) and the stabilising influence of the EU.

God help us if the EU fails and it goes back to how it was.

Cons: prone to navel gazing to the point where it becomes self-loathing and denies said achievements.

Most of the worst genocides and wars in history happened in China and the Asian Steppe FYI

 

[its free real estate]

Everyone goes on about how bad the West was conquering indigenous peoples, but then you read about Tlaloc and tzompantli and think "hey maybe the Spaniards were right to wipe them from the earth":

One of the most common rites carried out during such ceremonies were sacrifices of children, whose crying was considered beneficial for obtaining rain. The tears of new-born children, being strictly connected with the Tlalocan, were pure and precious.​

​

One offering found at the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan included the remains of approximately 45 children sacrificed in honor of Tlaloc. These children ranged in age between two and seven years of age and were mostly but not entirely males. This was an unusual ritual deposit, and Mexican archaeologist Leonardo López Luján has suggested that the sacrifice was specifically to appease Tlaloc during the great drought that occurred during the mid-15th century C.E.​

https://www.thoughtco.com/tlaloc-aztec-god-rain-and-fertility-172965

 

[M Malice]

Best pros- Potable water, Sewage systems.

Worst cons- Ostentatious consumerism based on narcissism.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Dramatic improvements in the understanding of physics has greatly improved our resource efficiency, ability to communicate, ability to harness energy and ability to travel

I think this point is worth expanding. Cheap, reliable electricity is a game changer for any society that acquires it. As is cheap, reliable transport. Computing and the internet is a game changer for humanity.

On the Cons side - Twitter.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Pros: flushable toilets
Cons: the internet

 

[skipper kelly]

Pros - pr0n and pawn
Cons - humans

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Everyone goes on about how bad the West was conquering indigenous peoples, but then you read about Tlaloc and tzompantli and think "hey maybe the Spaniards were right to wipe them from the earth":

One of the most common rites carried out during such ceremonies were sacrifices of children, whose crying was considered beneficial for obtaining rain. The tears of new-born children, being strictly connected with the Tlalocan, were pure and precious.​

​

One offering found at the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan included the remains of approximately 45 children sacrificed in honor of Tlaloc. These children ranged in age between two and seven years of age and were mostly but not entirely males. This was an unusual ritual deposit, and Mexican archaeologist Leonardo López Luján has suggested that the sacrifice was specifically to appease Tlaloc during the great drought that occurred during the mid-15th century C.E.​

https://www.thoughtco.com/tlaloc-aztec-god-rain-and-fertility-172965

And for the sake of the argument, the British banned Sati in India.

 

[Benny78]

There are too many stupid people with money. I would like to see no inheritance and everyone start from the bottom. No private schooling, criminal offences for promoting people for social and not skill reasons. Everyone gets the same go and the ones who take shortcuts get prosecuted for it.

For example the Francis Abbott scholarship thing, should be sentenced to work in McDonalds the rest of her life and get a real perspective. That was someone elses scholarship and someone elses future she stole. Needs to be big penalties until it's completely disencouraged and stamped out of society.

What's only highlighted this issue to me more are these people are generally shameless animals. Instead of keeping their head down because they have it so easy compared to everyone else, they get politically involved and outraged. You have spoonfed beneficiaries of daddy complaining people don't work hard enough for them or eat too much smashed avocado, and that's why they are poor. Rather than feeling the shame of receiving a secure wage no matter how illiterate, inept, and useless they actually are. Would get chewed up and spat out in the real world which is why it's so baffling they don't keep quiet.

I mean the only way they can have these types of opinions is not work for or receive anything from Daddy. But they all get given jobs spoonfed by daddy and get his stuff for free when he dies. That's not success that's absolutely pathetic

 

[Malifice]

Most of the worst genocides and wars in history happened in China and the Asian Steppe FYI

Im not saying Europeans (and their colonies) are alone in perpetrating genocides and war, and that bad ones havent happened elsewhere.

I am saying European barbarism (genocide, dictatorships, war, atrocities) tend to be glossed over or conveniently ignored in many arguments that seek to paint Europe as some kind of shining light on the hill and bastion of liberty and human rights.

A cursory glance at the 20th century paints the Europeans (and at least 1 of her former colonies) as the leaders in warfare, genocides and atrocities. The largest theatre of war in history happened there (Barbarossa). The largest military campaign (Stalingrad) The biggest genocide (conducted on an industrial scale) in the Holocaust. The deaths of close to 100 million people in Europe thanks to a combined 10 years of warfare in WWs 1 and 2 (both started by European powers). The flow on effects and deaths caused by European political doctrines such as Marxism, Fascism, Nazism and Nationalism etc. The development and use of Nuclear weapons by the US.

This is a trend that follows from the prior centuries where the same levels of conquest and genocide was also more than arguable (Colonialism, Napoleon etc).

I'm not down playing the amazing things to come out of Europe. It was the birthplace of Liberalism, and a leader in Human Rights and open and transparent democracies.

Im just constantly amused by people that hold it up as some sort of bastion for civilisation, conveniently ignoring the extreme levels of bad shit to come from the continent.

 

[Mofra]

Everyone goes on about how bad the West was conquering indigenous peoples, but then you read about Tlaloc and tzompantli and think "hey maybe the Spaniards were right to wipe them from the earth":

One of the most common rites carried out during such ceremonies were sacrifices of children, whose crying was considered beneficial for obtaining rain. The tears of new-born children, being strictly connected with the Tlalocan, were pure and precious.​

​

One offering found at the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan included the remains of approximately 45 children sacrificed in honor of Tlaloc. These children ranged in age between two and seven years of age and were mostly but not entirely males. This was an unusual ritual deposit, and Mexican archaeologist Leonardo López Luján has suggested that the sacrifice was specifically to appease Tlaloc during the great drought that occurred during the mid-15th century C.E.​

https://www.thoughtco.com/tlaloc-aztec-god-rain-and-fertility-172965

Some aboriginal mobs in Voctoria practised infanticide, but not for spiritual reasons - it was to maintain a sustainable population. Brutal, but effective.

 

[Malifice]

Some aboriginal mobs in Voctoria practised infanticide, but not for spiritual reasons - it was to maintain a sustainable population. Brutal, but effective.

As did the Spartans.

Unless that's just a furphy.

 

[Mofra]

As did the Spartans.

Unless that's just a furphy.

There is also the Zulu method (which may or may not be true) of leaving newborns overnight in the open so only the strong survive.

Then there's King Herod...

In short, history is brutal.

 

[its free real estate]

Im not saying Europeans (and their colonies) are alone in perpetrating genocides and war, and that bad ones havent happened elsewhere.

I am saying European barbarism (genocide, dictatorships, war, atrocities) tend to be glossed over or conveniently ignored in many arguments that seek to paint Europe as some kind of shining light on the hill and bastion of liberty and human rights.

A cursory glance at the 20th century paints the Europeans (and at least 1 of her former colonies) as the leaders in warfare, genocides and atrocities. The largest theatre of war in history happened there (Barbarossa). The largest military campaign (Stalingrad) The biggest genocide (conducted on an industrial scale) in the Holocaust. The deaths of close to 100 million people in Europe thanks to a combined 10 years of warfare in WWs 1 and 2 (both started by European powers). The flow on effects and deaths caused by European political doctrines such as Marxism, Fascism, Nazism and Nationalism etc. The development and use of Nuclear weapons by the US.

This is a trend that follows from the prior centuries where the same levels of conquest and genocide was also more than arguable (Colonialism, Napoleon etc).

I'm not down playing the amazing things to come out of Europe. It was the birthplace of Liberalism, and a leader in Human Rights and open and transparent democracies.

Im just constantly amused by people that hold it up as some sort of bastion for civilisation, conveniently ignoring the extreme levels of bad shit to come from the continent.

The Yellow Turban rebellion in ~200AD and subsequent Three Kingdoms war killed about 30-40 million people. There is a decent Chinese movie by John Woo called Red Cliff about this.

The population of the planet at the time was 250 million. Around 10-20% of humanity died in the conflict.

Literally no contest to any European war. Further mass deaths in China were the An-Shi rebellion (30 million in 800AD), the Mongol Conquests (anywhere up to 100 million in 1300), and the Taiping Rebellion (20 million in the mid 19th century, some estimates as high as 100 million).

The Chinese and their neighbours have historically been really good at killing people.

 

[its free real estate]

There is also the Zulu method (which may or may not be true) of leaving newborns overnight in the open so only the strong survive.

Then there's King Herod...

In short, history is brutal.

Most of Quillette is bad, but this is good

https://quillette.com/2018/07/27/burying-a-child/

But the Mexica weren't hunter-gatherers unsure of their next meal. They were an advanced civilisation who slaughtered children as a ritual.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Im not saying Europeans (and their colonies) are alone in perpetrating genocides and war, and that bad ones havent happened elsewhere.

I am saying European barbarism (genocide, dictatorships, war, atrocities) tend to be glossed over or conveniently ignored in many arguments that seek to paint Europe as some kind of shining light on the hill and bastion of liberty and human rights.

A cursory glance at the 20th century paints the Europeans (and at least 1 of her former colonies) as the leaders in warfare, genocides and atrocities. The largest theatre of war in history happened there (Barbarossa). The largest military campaign (Stalingrad) The biggest genocide (conducted on an industrial scale) in the Holocaust. The deaths of close to 100 million people in Europe thanks to a combined 10 years of warfare in WWs 1 and 2 (both started by European powers). The flow on effects and deaths caused by European political doctrines such as Marxism, Fascism, Nazism and Nationalism etc. The development and use of Nuclear weapons by the US.

This is a trend that follows from the prior centuries where the same levels of conquest and genocide was also more than arguable (Colonialism, Napoleon etc).

I'm not down playing the amazing things to come out of Europe. It was the birthplace of Liberalism, and a leader in Human Rights and open and transparent democracies.

Im just constantly amused by people that hold it up as some sort of bastion for civilisation, conveniently ignoring the extreme levels of bad shit to come from the continent.

In the European theatre WWI and WWII was really one war with a pause in the middle. It was an extension of the wars between the empires of European royalty. As the op refers to, the removal of power based on bloodlines in favour of democracy has eliminated this cause of almost continual war in Europe over the centuries.

Nazism and the Jewish holocaust were due to a combination of nationalism and claims of a scientific basis for a hierarchy of the human race. Developments in the science of gene analysis has rendered such claims as nonsense.

 

[Malifice]

The Chinese and their neighbours have historically been really good at killing people.

The Chinese have been around in one form or another for 4000 years and aren't big on invasions to the same extent as European powers. Internal wars are a different story.

 

[Malifice]

In the European theatre WWI and WWII was really one war with a pause in the middle. It was an extension of the wars between the empires of European royalty. As the op refers to, the removal of power based on bloodlines in favour of democracy has eliminated this cause of almost continual war in Europe over the centuries.

Nazism and the Jewish holocaust were due to a combination of nationalism and claims of a scientific basis for a hierarchy of the human race. Developments in the science of gene analysis has rendered such claims as nonsense.

There is solid evidence that the integration of Europe via the EU and increased trade post WW2 was the main reason for the sustained (and historicaly unprecedented) peace in Europe over the past 70 years.

 

[its free real estate]

The Chinese have been around in one form or another for 4000 years and aren't big on invasions to the same extent as European powers. Internal wars are a different story.

How are they different? If 40 million people die that’s 40 million dead. Slaughtering “your own” people is no less problematic than slaughtering a lot of someone else.

 

[Frank Bunn]

There is solid evidence that the integration of Europe via the EU and increased trade post WW2 was the main reason for the sustained (and historicaly unprecedented) peace in Europe over the past 70 years.

Correlation does not imply causation. For example, an alternative explanation could be that the peace in Europe was due to the nations forming an alliance in fear of the Soviet Union. Or that democracies don't go to war with each other.

 

[Malifice]

How are they different? If 40 million people die that’s 40 million dead. Slaughtering “your own” people is no less problematic than slaughtering a lot of someone else.

I was making the observation that the Chinese have historically not been conquerors of other societies, and their warfare and genocides have been largely domestic in nature.

I'm not trying to downplay those deaths as being 'lesser in value' than deaths caused by external aggression.

 

[Malifice]

Correlation does not imply causation. For example, an alternative explanation could be that the peace in Europe was due to the nations forming an alliance in fear of the Soviet Union. Or that democracies don't go to war with each other.

And the EU is a democratic alliance. It's a more integrated Europe than what came before it.

If it's a case of dozens of sovereign nations with nationalist agendas and historical gripes (what came before the EU) or an integrated Europe reliant on each other for trade and with free movement of citizens and a shared economic interest, I know which of those two scenarios is less conducive to war.

One of the selling points of the EU and its main reason to be was the argument that by opening up free movement and creation of shared economic interests (and a shared European identity) wars in Europe between member States would be a lot rarer.

If the EU breaks apart and falls back into the hands of far right wing Ultra nationalists re-establishing borders, then we have a problem.

 

[its free real estate]

I was making the observation that the Chinese have historically not been conquerors of other societies, and their warfare and genocides have been largely domestic in nature.

I'm not trying to downplay those deaths as being 'lesser in value' than deaths caused by external aggression.

Why does it matter whether they were conquerors or not?

The idea that total war is a significantly Western affliction is wrong. Eg 200 years before the Brits claimed India, Timur was there killing around what was then 5% of the world’s population. He even titled himself the “Sword of Islam”.

Everyone complains about European colonialism forgetting that conquest is a defining feature of most civilisations, and that many were a lot crueller than the West.

None of them harnessed electricity.