Politics Pros and Cons of modern western civilisation

[Malifice]

Why does it matter whether they were conquerors or not?

The idea that total war is a significantly Western affliction is wrong. Eg 200 years before the Brits claimed India, Timur was there killing around what was then 5% of the world’s population. He even titled himself the “Sword of Islam”.

Everyone complains about European colonialism forgetting that conquest is a defining feature of most civilisations, and that many were a lot crueller than the West.

None of them harnessed electricity.

Wasnt it the Americans that harnessed electricity?

That's not really Europe is it?

And it was a Jew that harnessed the Atom as well. And cracked special relativity.

He was German though I guess.

Ironically.

 

[its free real estate]

Wasnt it the Americans that harnessed electricity?

That's not really Europe is it?

And it was a Jew that harnessed the Atom as well. And cracked special relativity.

He was German though I guess.

Ironically.

America is part of Western civilisation, as are the Ashkenazim. Have been since the Septuagint and the Hellenised Jews.

 

[Malifice]

America is part of Western civilisation, as are the Ashkenazim. Have been since the Septuagint and the Hellenised Jews.

Tell that to your mates at Stormfront.

 

[Kwality]

Pros: responsible for around 90% of humanity's greatest achievements

Cons: prone to navel gazing to the point where it becomes self-loathing and denies said achievements.

From my eyes/ears the biggest failure of the last 50 years has been the politicising of day to day living as if who you voted for dictates what you think about social judgement issues as an example that is one of many.

 

[Seeds]

And 90 percent of humanities worst achievements.

Development of atomic weapons (and their use), World Wars 1 and 2, Colonialism, the Holocaust, the largest theatre of war in history, the Cold war and constant threat of global nuclear annhilation, the invention and rise of Fascism, Nazism, Marxism and ultra nationalism etc.

There is always this weird European and American exceptionalism that floats around when we label other cultures or ethnic groups as 'violent' or 'barbaric'. Europeans are no different. Heck. Europe (barring the interval since WW 2) the whole region has largely been in a state of continuous war, and the site of some of the worlds most brutal genocides and pogroms, atrocities and invasions, the planets most brutal and notorious dictators and so forth.

For every great liberal leader, or advocate of peace Europe has produced a brutal tyrant or genocidal monster.

I think we're largely ignorant of it in this generation due to an unprecedented 70 years of peace on the European continent, and the dismantling of the few remaining Fascist regimes (Franco, Salizar etc) and the stabilising influence of the EU.

God help us if the EU fails and it goes back to how it was.

You make some good points and some i definately missed. But havent most of these issues now passed?

Democracy appears to have won out over totatlitarinism. Humanism has won out over marxism and social darwinism.

And the west has been the source of some major attrocities, mostly because economic and technological growth gave it the scope to have wars bigger then any other civilisation has been able to, but when you look at the data the west has now achieved record low violence rates not seen anywhere else, record low poverty levels and the highest ever life expectancy.

 

[Seeds]

There are too many stupid people with money. I would like to see no inheritance and everyone start from the bottom. No private schooling, criminal offences for promoting people for social and not skill reasons. Everyone gets the same go and the ones who take shortcuts get prosecuted for it.

For example the Francis Abbott scholarship thing, should be sentenced to work in McDonalds the rest of her life and get a real perspective. That was someone elses scholarship and someone elses future she stole. Needs to be big penalties until it's completely disencouraged and stamped out of society.

What's only highlighted this issue to me more are these people are generally shameless animals. Instead of keeping their head down because they have it so easy compared to everyone else, they get politically involved and outraged. You have spoonfed beneficiaries of daddy complaining people don't work hard enough for them or eat too much smashed avocado, and that's why they are poor. Rather than feeling the shame of receiving a secure wage no matter how illiterate, inept, and useless they actually are. Would get chewed up and spat out in the real world which is why it's so baffling they don't keep quiet.

I mean the only way they can have these types of opinions is not work for or receive anything from Daddy. But they all get given jobs spoonfed by daddy and get his stuff for free when he dies. That's not success that's absolutely pathetic

I agree with a lot of this. So why are you a trump supporter?

 

[FireKrakouer]

Im not saying Europeans (and their colonies) are alone in perpetrating genocides and war, and that bad ones havent happened elsewhere.

I am saying European barbarism (genocide, dictatorships, war, atrocities) tend to be glossed over or conveniently ignored in many arguments that seek to paint Europe as some kind of shining light on the hill and bastion of liberty and human rights.

A cursory glance at the 20th century paints the Europeans (and at least 1 of her former colonies) as the leaders in warfare, genocides and atrocities. The largest theatre of war in history happened there (Barbarossa). The largest military campaign (Stalingrad) The biggest genocide (conducted on an industrial scale) in the Holocaust. The deaths of close to 100 million people in Europe thanks to a combined 10 years of warfare in WWs 1 and 2 (both started by European powers). The flow on effects and deaths caused by European political doctrines such as Marxism, Fascism, Nazism and Nationalism etc. The development and use of Nuclear weapons by the US.

This is a trend that follows from the prior centuries where the same levels of conquest and genocide was also more than arguable (Colonialism, Napoleon etc).

I'm not down playing the amazing things to come out of Europe. It was the birthplace of Liberalism, and a leader in Human Rights and open and transparent democracies.

Im just constantly amused by people that hold it up as some sort of bastion for civilisation, conveniently ignoring the extreme levels of bad s**t to come from the continent.

I disagree with the notion that european cruelty is glossed over. The average Australian (in my experience) is well aware of colonisation and of the world wars, including the holocaust. Ask them about Mao's purge and they'll respond with "who??"

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Social democratic governments (secular, mixed economy, individual liberties) are the best form of organisation humans have come up with.

Not exclusively Western, but the philosophical underpinnings are unless Im not informed enough.

And Ive said this before, but it's about time Western states start living up to these ideals.

 

[Malifice]

You make some good points and some i definately missed. But havent most of these issues now passed?

Democracy appears to have won out over totatlitarinism.

Has it though?

Or is Europe (like the rest of the world) slowly and surely shifting back towards insular, populist, far right wing nationalist leaders?

Le Penn and the National Rally in France. The Nazis (Alternative for Germany) again hold seats in the Bundestag. Golden Dawn in Greece. Far Right leaders are popping up everywhere in Europe, and the usual nationalistic jingoism is getting louder.

All of them Eurosceptic, far right wing, anti immigrant, insular, populist and militaristic.

Across Europe, nationalist and far-right parties have made significant electoral gains.
Some have taken office, others have become the main opposition voice, and even those yet to gain a political foothold have forced centrist leaders to adapt.
In part, this can be seen as a backlash against the political establishment in the wake of the financial and migrant crises, but the wave of discontent also taps into long-standing fears about globalisation and a dilution of national identity.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

It's troubling as *.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Yeah the blood and honour s**t is anti liberal and anti western.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[its free real estate]

Tell that to your mates at Stormfront.

There needs to be an equivalent Godwin’s law for this forum, named after you. The longer a thread goes the probability of Stormfront being referenced (most likely by Malifice) approaches 1.

 

[twotooto]

 

[FireKrakouer]

Has it though?

Or is Europe (like the rest of the world) slowly and surely shifting back towards insular, populist, far right wing nationalist leaders?

Le Penn and the National Rally in France. The Nazis (Alternative for Germany) again hold seats in the Bundestag. Golden Dawn in Greece. Far Right leaders are popping up everywhere in Europe, and the usual nationalistic jingoism is getting louder.

All of them Eurosceptic, far right wing, anti immigrant, insular, populist and militaristic.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

It's troubling as ****.

It is the pendulum swinging back towards the right by those who are dissatisfied with recent history, mostly in regards to immigration I would guess. But just because the pendulum is swinging to the right, this does not mean it will ultimately head all the way to the ultra right. Just as it didn't swing all the way to the ultra left previously.

You seem to think in a black and white manner, with the constant Stormfront references being an example of this. People are either "good" and of the left, or "bad" and are ultra right nazis. It's as if there are no centrists or moderate RWers out there.

 

[EasternTiger]

He's right Malifice. Your stormfront remarks are totally unnecessary, and derail what otherwise could be a very good thread. .

 

[Benny78]

I agree with a lot of this. So why are you a trump supporter?

Because he's not running my country and I find him funny. The whole shutdown for the wall and photos with world leaders are amazing. It's way better to watch than say Seinfield.

 

[Malifice]

You seem to think in a black and white manner, with the constant Stormfront references being an example of this. People are either "good" and of the left, or "bad" and are ultra right nazis. It's as if there are no centrists or moderate RWers out there.

I actually am centrist. Left of centre granted, but centrist nontheless. Somewhere on the Liberal left/ Labor right. In UK elections I tend to vote Lib Dem.

The only thing that would stop me full on siding with the Liberal Left is I'd have to deal with the Right faction of that party, and they're a bunch of ******* idiots (Abbott, Dutton etc).

I have some time for many that are or have been on the Liberal left (Turnbull, Bishop etc). The moderate 'small l' members of the party.

I dont rate the hard Left of the Labor party (Marx fanbois) either, but I'd generally rather side with someone on the Left side of politics (Greens etc) than I ever could throw my hat in with a bunch of climate change denying, mysoginist, anti immigration nationalist knob jockies.

And, no I dont see everyone on the political 'right' as Nazis. It's just the further 'right' you go, the closer you get to that warped ideology, and I'd prefer to stay as far away from it on the liberal spectrum as possible.

If the Democrats were still around, they'd likely be my party in Oz.

 

[WA ROO]

There needs to be an equivalent Godwin’s law for this forum, named after you. The longer a thread goes the probability of Stormfront being referenced (most likely by Malifice) approaches 1.

They way that site is advertised on here is concerning to say the least
Even it's sponsors get a run

 

[Seeds]

Has it though?

Or is Europe (like the rest of the world) slowly and surely shifting back towards insular, populist, far right wing nationalist leaders?

Le Penn and the National Rally in France. The Nazis (Alternative for Germany) again hold seats in the Bundestag. Golden Dawn in Greece. Far Right leaders are popping up everywhere in Europe, and the usual nationalistic jingoism is getting louder.

All of them Eurosceptic, far right wing, anti immigrant, insular, populist and militaristic.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

It's troubling as ****.

Good point although i dont think we are quite at the stage to say there is a permanent return of nationalism. Those percentages are only in their teens and the majority of their supporters are baby boomers who are now in their fearful and reminiscing about the past years. They will be gone in two decades.

 

[Seeds]

Because he's not running my country and I find him funny. The whole shutdown for the wall and photos with world leaders are amazing. It's way better to watch than say Seinfield.

Thats not supporting him though. Thats treating him like a clown.

You should be aware though that politicians in western countries tend to copy each other. If trump and america goes more nationalist then so will we.

 

[its free real estate]

“It’s troubling as *” says Malifice, noticing a small rise in the vote of right wing populist parties in Europe, as the rising world power in China imprisons around two million Muslims in concentration camps.

When you regret being a former One Nation member so much you overdose on white guilt.

 

[ShanDog]

Has it though?

Or is Europe (like the rest of the world) slowly and surely shifting back towards insular, populist, far right wing nationalist leaders?

Le Penn and the National Rally in France. The Nazis (Alternative for Germany) again hold seats in the Bundestag. Golden Dawn in Greece. Far Right leaders are popping up everywhere in Europe, and the usual nationalistic jingoism is getting louder.

All of them Eurosceptic, far right wing, anti immigrant, insular, populist and militaristic.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006

It's troubling as ****.

Compare the most populist of right-wing governments with just about every form of government prior to the 1700s and they are a veritable nirvana of enlightenment and freedom. Perspective is important.

 

[ShanDog]

Oh, and regarding the OP, the question is so silly I refuse to vote. West is best. If you don't believe it, live elsewhere a while a see how it compares. Not that there is much of an 'elsewhere' these days. The whole world is adopting western values and systems to some degree or another.

 

[Seeds]

Oh, and regarding the OP, the question is so silly I refuse to vote. West is best. If you don't believe it, live elsewhere a while a see how it compares. Not that there is much of an 'elsewhere' these days. The whole world is adopting western values and systems to some degree or another.

After just spending two weeks on the east coast of the USA where white guilt is running rampant i was beginning to question my own perspective. Its good to know that there are still others who think its a ridiculous question.

 

[Number37]

PROS:






CONS:

 

[ShanDog]

PROS:


View attachment 623288



CONS:

View attachment 623289

Arguably both pros!

And of course, if you're a right winger, arguably both pros in the 'positive' sense.

Also, if the pro in pic 1 was arrested, that would make her a con.

Also, my old hairdresser's name was Con.

I forget where I was going with this.