Observations on internal issues?

[Kimbo]

ferball us North faithful expect success come hell or high water, am not sure Saints or Dee fans feel that way. I've always thought we'd be ok as long as there was a belief we're building towards something. Currently I'm not feeling that and tbh we've been treading water for years.

I think you're right we have looked to ensure the club is safe from relocation, and a fourth game in Tassie is obviously in the incumbents view an easy fundraiser. No effort required.

I've always said it is much harder moving on a club that is debt free than one with its arse hanging out its pants( mighty Fitzroy).
The club is as financial as its even been, that job is done and yes some aren't happy, but I reckon a side pushing top 4 would make those people forget their woes.

The current board cannot buy themselves more time the ruse is up, the only way to settle the constitutes is a clean sweep of the board.

Agree with most of this post except the bolded bit. My bugbear at the moment is the revisionism of many about the Scott era. The likes of kangatime can see "I told youse so" but otherwise I'd like to think we say "We invested in what we thought was the best approach (coach, list management etc.) but at the end of the day it didn't work out, so time to move on," to what we now think is the best approach.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Agree with most of this post except the bolded bit. My bugbear at the moment is the revisionism of many about the Scott era. The likes of kangatime can see "I told youse so" but otherwise I'd like to think we say "We invested in what we thought was the best approach (coach, list management etc.) but at the end of the day it didn't work out, so time to move on," to what we now think is the best approach.

I think this lets the coaching group off the hook too lightly.

We invested (and re-invested) for years to enable them to build for success. It is now clear that the investment has been wasted.

If it was instead a case of investing peoples' money over the same horizon with the same assurances, then the investment adviser would be sued for either fraud or gross negligence.

 

[Kimbo]

Spoke to a former 90s player about the club and he isn't very happy with the club at all.

I quote from him:

"I’m not sad, they need to recruit better...last time I was at Arden st it didn’t feel like a club it felt more like a business a company that forgot about the people."

What an absolute shame. Called the list B graders and the coach needs to go. Been there too long.

Spoke to a recently retired player the other day who acknowledged he's no longer in the club, so can't comment. We did speak, however, about the role of culture in organisations and I mentioned 'Shinboner Spirit' as an example. He acknowledged it's role or existence at a couple of points in his career.

I'm thinking that culture has shifted significantly in recent years as we've grown the organisation. Size or perhaps more appropriately, growth beyond a certain size, does matter

 

[ferball]

I think this lets the coaching group off the hook too lightly.

We invested (and re-invested) for years to enable them to build for success. It is now clear that the investment has been wasted.

If it was instead a case of investing peoples' money over the same horizon with the same assurances, then the investment adviser would be sued for either fraud or gross negligence.

I don't think we've been treading water.

I think after 2016, 2017 was an expected result - a drop out of finals I mean - but it wasn't as bad as it looked. We lost 5 games by under a goal, so in that sense we were lucky (LDU). But it meant we looked worse than we were at the start of last season.

That made last season look like more of an improvement. (It was an improvement but not as good a one as it seems on paper given 2017 could have been much better with a few straight kicks.) And the finish was poor. When it mattered.

But the off season recruiting was good.

So this year we should be in a much better position.

However it also makes the long term issues such as inability to fight things out, poor skills and goal kicking look worse.

 

[Peter27374]

Seen it happen to quite a few organisations in my relatively short life so far.

Once you start bringing in people en masse (usually happens once a company gets to a certain size or acquires a large amount of resources) who are careerist in ambition above all, with no direct attachment to the product [I don't like referring to our club as a 'product', but I guess it's fitting now?], then the once 'vibey' club, association, not-for-profit, etc. loses its soul, so to speak.

Retaining a place's soul can also be used as an excuse to create an impenetrable boys club, too, so it's a fine line.

Has there been a shift in direction towards this more corporate mentality from the Board over the last 10-20 years? IMO, probably yes. In our bid to make us financially solvent, it sounds like we've shifted in that direction and have been completely unprepared for the swathe of careerists that come swarming once you make that move.

So true and of course most of the supporters are just loyal supporters and hear Brad and BB asking for Shinboner loyalty and equate those careerist with being the club. Of course in fact Scott originally came to the club wanting nothing to do with Shinbonerism. It was like somebody becoming King of Moomba that hates Melbourne and Kids. Oops yes l know that has actually happened.

 

[Mordecai]

any update scooby1279 ?

 

[Heaps of fun]

Does anyone know if there is any truth to the Longmire rumour?

 

[SunnyBoner]

This is probably a question for someone like Mastermind but when was the last time we had a win against quality opposition after being 4-5 goals down and when was the last time we had an unexpected interstate win against quality opposition (WCE, Adelaide). It seems like a long time ago and very few in the Scott era. The Essendon final a few years back where Drew kicked a crucial goal at the end is one which springs to mind.

 

[Reverend Shinboner]

Agree with most here - a thorough review of the football department, with a full and uninhibited remit, is what I want to see. And see enacted soon.

As to who/how/what, I revisited the successful football department reviews that came to mind over the last 20 years:
- Geoff Walsh, Collingwood, 2017 (GM of Football) - stuck fat with the coach
- Neil Balme, Richmond, 2016 (GM of Football) - stuck fat with coach, provided new/different support
- Peter Gordon (not formally in charge of a review, but clearly the main driver/decision-maker), Bulldogs, 2014 (President) - sacked coach out of the blue, appointed Beveridge
- Brian Cook, Geelong, 2006 (CEO) - stuck fat with coach, but with pretty clear directives on changes that needed to be made
- Jason Dunstall? (not sure there was a formal review, but there was a minor crisis, and Dunstall was Acting CEO that led them through it), 2004 (Acting CEO) - appointed Clarkson

Interestingly enough, all of these reviews were driven by people already at the club; a bunch were rusted on clubmen (Balme, Gordon, Dunstall). Also key, in my humble opinion/observation, is that those undertaking the review had the power to deliver on its recommendations. And were around the club long enough afterwards to be held accountable to it, one way or the other.

Personally, I wouldn't be adverse to Ben Buckley rolling up the sleeves - Peter Gordon-style - and undertaking a thorough review. (Side note: read this letter to members by Gordon in Sep 2014 before he sacked McCartney - it shows the leadership I'd love to see from B. Buckley - which he still has the time and space to deliver on ...). But I can't see that happening, unfortunately. Beyond him, I don't see any NMFC internal candidate (Board or staff member) with the credentials to do the job. Which leaves me scratching my head.

Gubby Allan? (not on the market)
Denis Pagan? (out of the game too long)
Rodney Eade?
Paul Roos?

You know what I'd love? I'd love the club go out and poach the likes of Brady Rawlings or Jason McCartney - highly credentialed football managers (without having held the role of Football Manager per se) and bona fide Shinboners - make them Head of Football, with assignment #1 being the footy dept review (which is basically what Walsh and Balme did at Collingwood and Richmond respectively). And then let them deliver on said review in full.

Unfortunately, this either pushes out Joyce, or demotes him, on the premise that he is part of the problem and not the solution - which I don't have the scrote knowledge to say one way or the other - and which would presumably be a big part of said review. But I'm not sure how to go around that.

 

[D23D]

In terms of internal issues, anyone in the scrote know if Polec’s joining the team on a higher salary than most caused any disharmony amongst the other players?

 

[Reverend Shinboner]

I wanted to separate out another key thought process.

I fully expect there to be a footy department review, announced sometime soon (before the mid-season bye?). If not, that's when I'd mobilise.

I do not necessarily advocate a board spill, but as a minimum, external (and internal) pressure on the board from a powerful group of supporters. Personally, I'd keep McKernan in the background - love him as a player, but not as a politician. I'd look no further than David King and Eugene Arocca as a pretty robust pair to hit up and rally behind ...

 

[Hearts to hearts]

This is probably a question for someone like Mastermind but when was the last time we had a win against quality opposition after being 4-5 goals down and when was the last time we had an unexpected interstate win against quality opposition (WCE, Adelaide). It seems like a long time ago and very few in the Scott era. The Essendon final a few years back where Drew kicked a crucial goal at the end is one which springs to mind.

Unexpected interstate win against good opposition was last year against Sydney - also against Freo a couple of years ago. Sweetest would have been the finals win against Sydney.

Comebacks I don’t know - that Richmond game we were talking about this week in another thread, when Nahas kicked the goal that put us ahead, was fantastic. Of course the Dogs game last year was an exciting comeback but I can’t remember how far back we got.

I do know it’s very hard to recall positives from even a season ago when we decide everything is wrong with Scott and always has been.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I suspect Denis would be a little too brutal for any incumbents to handle.

The vast majority would be in the foetal position within 10 minutes.

Which is representative of the problem.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Get this bloke to Arden Street!

 

[Gasometer]

A GoFund me would either get uproar press coverage
or
one of those little paragraphs of tidbit about the silliness of North fans

Somehow I am thinking tidbit paragraph

 

[Themanbun]

In terms of internal issues, anyone in the scrote know if Polec’s joining the team on a higher salary than most caused any disharmony amongst the other players?

If this is at all the case then I'd be pretty disappointed in whoever has shown angst towards this.

 

[Snake_Baker]

If this is at all the case then I'd be pretty disappointed in whoever has shown angst towards this.

I can't see why, the other top ranking players have all been paid well and predominately paid OUT.

 

[The acurate one]

Agree with most of this post except the bolded bit. My bugbear at the moment is the revisionism of many about the Scott era. The likes of kangatime can see "I told youse so" but otherwise I'd like to think we say "We invested in what we thought was the best approach (coach, list management etc.) but at the end of the day it didn't work out, so time to move on," to what we now think is the best approach.

Yeah I see you point and acknowledge it, very hard to prove otherwise. I suppose its been more of what our coach has been saying that has made me feel that way.

Without getting caught in another BF loop- if you have a coach of say the local community tiddlywinks team and let's call him Thommo "tiddly" Thompson and the local paper has you listed to finish on the bottom but "tiddly" gets you just outside the finals.

Thommo would be crazy to mention how foolish the local scribe was when writing the Waaia Winkers off and how we showed them by finishing outside the finals. There would be no parade down Waaia main street for any side that misses finals.

If Thommo dropped another and suggested there's no such thing as a must win game. Or he banged on about never getting beaten , but had lost 42 of his last 61 games or whatever.

I don't think it's a terribly longbow to suggest Tiddly has never thought the ultimate prize was a possibility.

Anyway Waaia looks likely to get an early pick at the Tiddlywinks draft and have their eyes set on "shaky Dave" a local lad from a great family

 

[Steele7]

As a 30-40 North supporter. I am expecting the coach & all assistant coaches to be gone. If not, questions need to be asked.

 

[Kimbo]

I suppose its been more of what our coach has been saying that has made me feel that way.

Without getting caught in another BF loop- if you have a coach of say the local community tiddlywinks team and let's call him Thommo "tiddly" Thompson and the local paper has you listed to finish on the bottom but "tiddly" gets you just outside the finals.

Thommo would be crazy to mention how foolish the local scribe was when writing the Waaia Winkers off and how we showed them by finishing outside the finals. There would be no parade down Waaia main street for any side that misses finals.

If Thommo dropped another and suggested there's no such thing as a must win game. Or he banged on about never getting beaten , but had lost 42 of his last 61 games or whatever.

I don't think it's a terribly longbow to suggest Tiddly has never thought the ultimate prize was a possibility.

Anyway Waaia looks likely to get an early pick at the Tiddlywinks draft and have their eyes set on "shaky Dave" a local lad from a great family

I think the whole club got saddled with "Never Beaten" because JB liked what one random old lady said as she left a chat with him. I hate it, personally.

The W/L record isn't great, but the role of the 'reset' and end of 2016 exits has to be considered.

I do think it's a long bow to suggest Brad hasn't considered a Premiership a possibility. (The 'like to win' was jmac, not Brad.)

I do, however, think the language - which creates reality - hasn't been ruthless enough. The phrase I'm sick of is "good enough to compete with the top sides" implying we're not a top side, but hope to be. I'd rather "footy which makes us a top side."

 

[D23D]

If this is at all the case then I'd be pretty disappointed in whoever has shown angst towards this.

Me too, but I had heard that there were some issues a few years ago at the swans after a number of players had kept their salary increases minimal to ‘keep the band together’ and then next minute Buddy gets hired on a lot more than the rest.
I realise it’s a different issue and that Polec isn’t paid like Buddy but just wondered is all.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Me too, but I had heard that there were some issues a few years ago at the swans after a number of players had kept their salary increases minimal to ‘keep the band together’ and then next minute Buddy gets hired on a lot more than the rest.
I realise it’s a different issue and that Polec isn’t paid like Buddy but just wondered is all.

It should be different at North - I doubt we’d have the issues of players taking well under other offers to stay together that would have been experienced at top performing clubs with a bunch of in-demand players. Also the prospect of North paying a lot to poach talent - much more money than Polec would be on - has been on the table at North for a few years. It’s not like the Buddy coup which came out the blue.

 

[Sideburns Ahern]

Me too, but I had heard that there were some issues a few years ago at the swans after a number of players had kept their salary increases minimal to ‘keep the band together’ and then next minute Buddy gets hired on a lot more than the rest.
I realise it’s a different issue and that Polec isn’t paid like Buddy but just wondered is all.

I think it's possibly relevant to Melbourne players who got close to a grand final last year and then saw the club pay big money for Stephen May to arrive fat and unfit for pre-season training. But any mediocre NMFC player who begrudges Jared Polec his wage needs to be told to go out and earn a ******* kick.

It should be different at North - I doubt we’d have the issues of players taking well under other offers to stay together that would have been experienced at top performing clubs with a bunch of in-demand players. Also the prospect of North paying a lot to poach talent - much more money than Polec would be on - has been on the table at North for a few years. It’s not like the Buddy coup which came out the blue.

Yes the other point is that every halfway decent NMFC player has been paid overs in a front-loaded contract as we endeavoured to use up available salary cap in previous years while preserving cap space for future recruiting.

 

[Themanbun]

Me too, but I had heard that there were some issues a few years ago at the swans after a number of players had kept their salary increases minimal to ‘keep the band together’ and then next minute Buddy gets hired on a lot more than the rest.
I realise it’s a different issue and that Polec isn’t paid like Buddy but just wondered is all.

That's pretty disappointing from the Swans boys. To me, if staying together and winning a flag is priority number one, then I wouldn't begrudge the club bringing in the best key forward of our generation on big coin.

I mean, it's not like these blokes are paid poorly, either. They could fetch more elsewhere, but would you rather finish 4th with every person in your team making salary cuts or would you rather give yourself a chance to win a flag by using that saving to acquire a gun?

 

[ferball]

I think the whole club got saddled with "Never Beaten" because JB liked what one random old lady said as she left a chat with him. I hate it, personally.

The W/L record isn't great, but the role of the 'reset' and end of 2016 exits has to be considered.

I do think it's a long bow to suggest Brad hasn't considered a Premiership a possibility. (The 'like to win' was jmac, not Brad.)

I do, however, think the language - which creates reality - hasn't been ruthless enough. The phrase I'm sick of is "good enough to compete with the top sides" implying we're not a top side, but hope to be. I'd rather "footy which makes us a top side."

I agree with most of that.

As far as language goes:

"Good enough to beat the top sides." not compete with them.

You are right - that sums up everything right there.

We compete with the best sides when we play them.

We don't take them on and beat them. We don't leave no stone unturned in our drive to win. We don't put our lives on the line to win against them. We don't push and drive and strive and move heaven and earth. We don't force our hearts and nerves and sinews to serve our turn long after they are gone. We don't hold on where is there is nothing left within us except the will that demands we Hold On!!

We don't give everything we have. And more.

In the service of our drive to beat the best teams and then to be THE best team.

And that is why we only compete.