Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Jhye Clark 13]

I agree, can't understand how they are getting games ahead of Ross, and Jiath.


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I was a fan of Jiath in his draft year and I've forgotten about him entirely. How's he tracking?

 

[TallyHawk]

I was a fan of Jiath in his draft year and I've forgotten about him entirely. How's he tracking?

Very nicely, maybe they have him doing the traditional Hawthorn apprenticeship. He might have a niggling injury at the moment.


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[TBoyleSuperstar]

Very nicely, maybe they have him doing the traditional Hawthorn apprenticeship. He might have a niggling injury at the moment.


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Broken jaw I think.
CJ has been good thus far, developing nicely

 

[TBoyleSuperstar]

The more I think of this, the more I think you can. Mainly as I think that the age profile of teams is largely irrelevant.
Whilst it's great to get in young talent to the club, I would like to know the strike rate of picks 8-20 going on to play 200 game is. A lot of sports rarely focus on young talent, and look for proven/exposed talent. This seems to be the way we have tackled trading/free agency over recent times.
Allows you to assess a players talent & attitude when exposed to the AFL environment.

Time will tell I guess

 

[daniel23]

Always find it funny coming into these threads and seeing supporters from Carlton getting so involved talking about age.

Despite missing the fact the only reason they won kast week was because murphy 31 , kruezer 30 and curnow 30 were massive . What happens when they retire in the next year or 2 along with simpson ? WithThomas being 32 and Jones 29 are you guys going to struggle or continue to be s*** ?. Cripps , Walsh, curnow are star's but outside of that for me it's players who were just high picks with potential .

It's not just the hawks but every club has a chunk of 28-32 year olds they rely on . But players like worpel, Lewis, Hardwick,scrimshaw definetly don't get recognised because of there draft position or fact they failed at another club.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Yeah, I wouldn't be using last night's game as a reason to validate Hawthorn's approach to drafting / recruiting.

 

[Burtman]

Always find it funny coming into these threads and seeing supporters from Carlton getting so involved talking about age.

Despite missing the fact the only reason they won kast week was because murphy 31 , kruezer 30 and curnow 30 were massive . What happens when they retire in the next year or 2 along with simpson ? WithThomas being 32 and Jones 29 are you guys going to struggle or continue to be s*** ?. Cripps , Walsh, curnow are star's but outside of that for me it's players who were just high picks with potential .

It's not just the hawks but every club has a chunk of 28-32 year olds they rely on . But players like worpel, Lewis, Hardwick,scrimshaw definetly don't get recognised because of there draft position or fact they failed at another club.

Shit clubs need something to believe in, they have to believe that draft picks are the be all and end all, cause thats all they have going for them.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

It's funny, when Hawthorn were losing they were tanking for picks and this thread moved along at a snails pace. They win a game and they're suddenly ready for silverware again.

 

[Turboman1994]

No doubting Clarkos ability to win flags or hawks ability to identify talent.

However at this stage in time I don’t believe hawks have the cattle to win a flag nail a couple for offseasons and it could change

 

[FairKouta]

Not quite accurate. Most of the senior players won’t be on the list. See below.

Roughead 32
Puopolo 31
Birchall 31
Mohr 30
Schoenmakers 28
Mirra 28

Where does the Hawks average rank now? It drops to 8th or 9th!

The players who took the field tonight. Let me know what your definition of “old” is.

Impey 23
Worpel 20
Sicily 24
O’Meara 24
Lewis 20
Nash 20
Glass 21
Hardwick 22
Howe 23
Gunston 27
Scully 28
Breust 28
O’Brien 24
Shiels 28
Hanrahan 20

W

So a Carlton supporter can't see it, nor can the Gold Coast see it boy oh boy two clubs inept at talent development. Do we just ignore his performances thus far for Hawthorn.


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This is his first year. And you see it already. Because he had a few good games. He is elite.
Ok then. Harris Andrews is elite. Once he gets to that level of KPP elite I will call him elite. Right now He Is ok not elite.

 

[FairKouta]

So a Carlton supporter can't see it, nor can the Gold Coast see it boy oh boy two clubs inept at talent development. Do we just ignore his performances thus far for Hawthorn.


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Also cripps turned out alright so did Eddie Betts rookie pick so did ed Curnow.

 

[La Dispute]

Hard NOT to be impressed with a lot of their younger players last night; Mitchell Lewis in particular would give plenty of Hawks supporters reason to be optimistic given he’s a talented young player doing well in an area of need.

Some of the reactions in this thread are so OTT it’s incredible. Jarman Impey and Blake Hardwick are not elite players, but moreover good players playing to a very good standard. Impey’s been fantastic for a month or so.

This current Collingwood team is no yardstick for performance either. They are significantly down on form, even mid-range teams like North are pantsing them, and they are looking unstable all over the ground.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Looking at our VFL side for this weekend, there is enough 'decent' talent in there. Walker and Kosi were from last years draft and have different attributes.
Morrison won't be an elite wingman but will always play the role solidly enough.
Ross and Jones will hopefully be given a run in the seniors before the year is out.
Pittonet and Ceglar are strong back up rucks.

Combine that with the young kids who got the job done last night and suddenly there is a little more optimism.

HOWEVER, we still need some elite talent at the top end despite what I perceive to be pretty solid depth.
I'd rather do that via the draft personally. Our best young players are still young enough that come 5 years time when the 2019 draft class reaches their prime, we'll hopefully still have Sicily, Hardwick, Mitchell, Worps, Impey, Scrimshaw, Lewis, Hanrahan, Moore, Jager etc running around with them. Very important years coming up at the draft table. It's why i'm not convinced that throwing the chequebook at Coniglio and Patton is the way to go. There is enough that can be done without losing out AGAIN, like we did trying to get Wingard last year. Still have PTSD when I see Burton running around in a Power jumper.

 

[detox]

Whoa there, you're comparing a first year player like Bailey Smith to guys like Mitchell and O'Meara? Who have been around for like 7-8 years? Cmon, if you're going to compare those guys to anyone on our list, it's Bontempelli and Macrae, but even that's not really relevant. I only mentioned Howe/Lewis/Hardwick because I know they're among your under 23 age bracket. Also, Josh Dunkley was a second round pick.
The real comparison with these players should be made with the assets you gave up. The Tom Mitchell trade was obviously a no-brainer, but for O'Meara, you gave up 2017 pick 7, 2017 pick 26, 2016 pick 36 and Brad Hill. Between O'Meara and what you gave up, I know what I'd rather have. For Wingard you gave up pick 15, Ryan Burton and pick 35. Again, not sure about you, but I know what I'm choosing, especially with an eye on the long term.

Again, because they're mostly older. Impey and Sicily are in the same age bracket as Bont. Hawthorn's dearth of talent is in the 18-23 year old bracket.


I'm counting my lucky stars every day.

Worpel is 20. Absolutely a top shelf young talent. Cripps, Jaeger and Walsh would be the only mids at 25 games in displaying form comparable to him at the same stage.

Mitch Lewis is 20, and stacks up almost identically statisticly to Aaron Naughton. For a 20 year old key you would be delighted with how he's going.

Scrimshaw is a 20 year old, 193cm utility defender who is out with a hammy. A former pick 7 who looks every bit as good as Burton did in that position until he went out. Great hands, great kick and has midfield potential.

Jackson Ross just turned 20, and playing for BHH. Needs another preseason to put on muscle but is a 193cm Jayden Stephenson clone who can run and has a sensational goal sense. Leading the VFL goal kicking weighing around 70kg

We have other talented young prospects too.

Also, Wingard has had a shocking run with soft tissue injuries all through preseason until now. Absurd to think what he is delivering now is what we can expect when he's fully fit. He will be at minimum a very good player for us.

 

[citizen-erased]

It's funny, when Hawthorn were losing they were tanking for picks and this thread moved along at a snails pace. They win a game and they're suddenly ready for silverware again.

last night said more about collingwood than the hawks.
Essendon would have comfortably beaten either side last night.....and we're not that good.

Pies are in a rut. It will change.
Hawks are building. Patience is needed.

 

[blitzer]

Always find it funny coming into these threads and seeing supporters from Carlton getting so involved talking about age.

Despite missing the fact the only reason they won kast week was because murphy 31 , kruezer 30 and curnow 30 were massive . What happens when they retire in the next year or 2 along with simpson ? WithThomas being 32 and Jones 29 are you guys going to struggle or continue to be s*** ?. Cripps , Walsh, curnow are star's but outside of that for me it's players who were just high picks with potential .

It's not just the hawks but every club has a chunk of 28-32 year olds they rely on . But players like worpel, Lewis, Hardwick,scrimshaw definetly don't get recognised because of there draft position or fact they failed at another club.

Agree with your points about Carlton.

But I dunno about those Hawks players not getting the recognition they deserve.
Worpel is pretty well known for a second year player and rated fairly imo. The only knock on him is his kicking but he's obviously great at winning contested ball.
Hardwick I think is underrated but he's getting more well known.
Lewis is a developing key forward that hasn't exactly been dominating games. I have been aware of him for a few years since one of the VFL matches where he stood out but you can hardly complain that he's not getting much recognition when he's not doing that much and has been in and out of a seniors side that is crying out for a good key forward. I would put him well behind a bloke like Harry McKay for example who also isn't a star but is coming along well.
Scrimshaw has been doing decently playing off the half back flank, but has only played a small number of games you wouldn't expect him to be acknowledged by opposition fans unless he was really dominating.

The blokes that are underrated on Hawks list are Henderson, Impey and Hardwick in my opinion.

 

[TigerTime88]

Always find it funny coming into these threads and seeing supporters from Carlton getting so involved talking about age.

Despite missing the fact the only reason they won kast week was because murphy 31 , kruezer 30 and curnow 30 were massive . What happens when they retire in the next year or 2 along with simpson ? WithThomas being 32 and Jones 29 are you guys going to struggle or continue to be s*** ?. Cripps , Walsh, curnow are star's but outside of that for me it's players who were just high picks with potential .

It's not just the hawks but every club has a chunk of 28-32 year olds they rely on . But players like worpel, Lewis, Hardwick,scrimshaw definetly don't get recognised because of there draft position or fact they failed at another club.

Agree but you have to remember Carlton should have a stupid amount of cap space and so can go free agency shopping pretty hard to fill those gaps.

 

[stfan]

Not quite accurate. Most of the senior players won’t be on the list. See below.

Roughead 32
Puopolo 31
Birchall 31
Mohr 30
Schoenmakers 28
Mirra 28

Where does the Hawks average rank now? It drops to 8th or 9th!

The players who took the field tonight. Let me know what your definition of “old” is.

Impey 23
Worpel 20
Sicily 24
O’Meara 24
Lewis 20
Nash 20
Glass 21
Hardwick 22
Howe 23
Gunston 27
Scully 28
Breust 28
O’Brien 24
Shiels 28
Hanrahan 20

Well my definition would be to compare it to other clubs and in particular your opponent.

The teams that played last night:

Hawthorn	Attribute	Collingwood
187.3cm	Height	188.8cm
86.1kg	Weight	88.2kg
26yr 6mth	Age	25yr 3mth
125.0	Games	96.7

So both older and more experienced. The "young" team fielded last night is still an "old" team

Though at 96 games Pies were not lacking for experience. Clarko pantsed Buckley

If you played the same 22 in a year it would be 27 yr 6 months.

 

[stfan]

The more I think of this, the more I think you can. Mainly as I think that the age profile of teams is largely irrelevant.

I agree. However if a number of older players are losing their touch then that is where the problem can lie.

 

[Furn2]

Well my definition would be to compare it to other clubs and in particular your opponent.

The teams that played last night:

Hawthorn	Attribute	Collingwood
187.3cm	Height	188.8cm
86.1kg	Weight	88.2kg
26yr 6mth	Age	25yr 3mth
125.0	Games	96.7

So both older and more experienced. The "young" team fielded last night is still an "old" team

Though at 96 games Pies were not lacking for experience. Clarko pantsed Buckley

If you played the same 22 in a year it would be 27 yr 6 months.

Older teams do better in the future than young teams on average.

 

[cryptor]

last night said more about collingwood than the hawks.
Essendon would have comfortably beaten either side last night.....and we're not that good.

Pies are in a rut. It will change.
Hawks are building. Patience is needed.

Rubbish. Hawks almost did the same thing to West Coast the week before. They in a rut too?

 

[HairyO]

I agree, can't understand how they are getting games ahead of Ross, and Jiath.


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Because Clarko doesnt rush players in when they arent ready.

Yeah, I wouldn't be using last night's game as a reason to validate Hawthorn's approach to drafting / recruiting.

Or when we beat GWS. Or when we beat Adelaide. Or competitive against West Coast.

I mean apart from that, we are no good.

 

[hk89]

Whoa there, you're comparing a first year player like Bailey Smith to guys like Mitchell and O'Meara? Who have been around for like 7-8 years? Cmon, if you're going to compare those guys to anyone on our list, it's Bontempelli and Macrae, but even that's not really relevant. I only mentioned Howe/Lewis/Hardwick because I know they're among your under 23 age bracket. Also, Josh Dunkley was a second round pick.

Get back to us when either of those is better than Mitchell or O'Meara. That is the point. We've forgone players like Smith because we used those type of picks to get players like Mitchell and O'Meara in, so it makes perfect sense to compare one with the other. You were saying we don't have the quality youth that teams that have gone to the draft have. That is partly true, but I'd rather have a team full of high quality 24-26 year olds than a list full of talented but not yet performing at elite level kids. I've seen enough of Carlton and GC over the last decade to think otherwise.

The real comparison with these players should be made with the assets you gave up. The Tom Mitchell trade was obviously a no-brainer, but for O'Meara, you gave up 2017 pick 7, 2017 pick 26, 2016 pick 36 and Brad Hill. Between O'Meara and what you gave up, I know what I'd rather have. For Wingard you gave up pick 15, Ryan Burton and pick 35. Again, not sure about you, but I know what I'm choosing, especially with an eye on the long term.

We didn't give up brad hill for O'Meara. We gave up Brad Hill for compassionate reasons to allow him to return back home. We gave up the pick we got for Brad Hill. That is a big difference. Currently O'Meara is a shit load better than any of the players the clubs got with the picks we gave up. That might change over time, but right now we got elite talent currently able to perform at elite level. None of those picks is consistently doing that at the level O'meara is right now.

Again, because they're mostly older. Impey and Sicily are in the same age bracket as Bont. Hawthorn's dearth of talent is in the 18-23 year old bracket.

Good. Teams with all their talent in the 18-23 bracket don't win flags, and generally don't make finals. While there are some exceptions, young teams don't contend in general. Hawthorn know that and want to contend sooner rather than later while they still have some of the players from the 3-peat around. That is the reason we don't have the young talent some of the shit clubs (at the moment) like Carlton and GC have. We've chosen older talent over younger talent. That is the entire point of discussion of this thread. Whether it works or not will remain to be seen. This year isn't a great advertisement for the plan so far, but having our best player out and our star recruit's season ruined by 4 soft tissue injuries has put a pretty big dint in our 2019 plans. Our ability to put decent performances in against some of the top 8 teams gives some reason for optimism , especially if we can add one or two decent recruits and continue to see ongoing development from the likes of Worpel, Scrimshaw, Lewis.

I'm counting my lucky stars every day.

You should be. Only team to win a flag outside the top 4 under the current system. Outside of that massive outlier year, dogs and their youth haven't been the poster child of a success. Hawthorn had two 'hangover' years after 2008, so I guess there is still time for the dogs list. It is definitely still young enough.

 

[hk89]

Hardwick is far from elite.

Probably not quite elite yet. There are some very experienced small defenders ahead of him. However if you look at young small defenders (those still under 23) it gets pretty hard to find better than him, so he's probably elite amongst that bunch, and has some development upside still to come. AFL player rankings only has one small/medium defender from Geelong above him (Tuohy), and that is only by 3 spots, and Tuohy is going down, and Hardwick up. According to that list, if Hardwick isn't elite, Geelong has no elite small or medium defenders. Which might be right.

 

[4THAWN]

Hard NOT to be impressed with a lot of their younger players last night; Mitchell Lewis in particular would give plenty of Hawks supporters reason to be optimistic given he’s a talented young player doing well in an area of need.

Some of the reactions in this thread are so OTT it’s incredible. Jarman Impey and Blake Hardwick are not elite players, but moreover good players playing to a very good standard. Impey’s been fantastic for a month or so.

This current Collingwood team is no yardstick for performance either. They are significantly down on form, even mid-range teams like North are pantsing them, and they are looking unstable all over the ground.

Jarman Impey is borderline elite, and will be elite for years to come.

Blake Hardwick had an outstanding season last year, coming second in the BnF ahead of blokes like O'Meara, Breust, Gunston etc. Had a slowish start to this year but was great last night.

As clarko stated in his presser, Impey/Sicily/Hardwick is a very quality young half-backline