Coach New direction

[partypie]

i thought our lack of scoring was the biggest source of concern.

Our scoring issues largely stem from what happens across half back and through the middle of the ground.

 

[TradeDraft]

We need Cox to become our goal kicking coach!

He is Rather Accurate

 

[Markfs]

Mark mate peace - I don't share your particular attitudes but you are a fellow pies supporter in as much pain as me.

i'm a peaceful man

 

[Markfs]

Mark mate peace - I don't share your particular attitudes but you are a fellow pies supporter in as much pain as me.

in our spirit of peaceful co-existence, the two worrisome things that i've learnt this year is that buckley indicated in yesterdays press conference that he doesnt rate tall forwards ... and the other thing is that mason cox appears to be earning $500k+ a year. i would use more speculative draft picks on tall forwards and indigenous players.... and i'd pay non-core players less

 

[jonmacTrag]

i'm a peaceful man

As am I.
Let's move on.
Backline , , check.
Wingers , , check.
Centre , , ???????
Forwards ???????
Flags are won by teams with great backlines so we have the basis.
IF Grundy is injured (as I believe he is ) things are not so bad. If he isn't we have an issue.
Mids are an even bigger headache than the forward line and probably a big contributor to the forward woes.
Forwards getting horrendous entries but aside from Cox spraying them everywhere.
I know we need a couple of reliable forwards but that midfield MUST be fixed THIS OFF SEASON.
Fix the midfield and better entries improve the forward line automatically.
I have no faith in Sier so I would be looking for best big bodied mid available and a couple of steady tall forwards.

 

[stormskye]

Our scoring issues largely stem from what happens across half back and through the middle of the ground.

North melb poster (can’t remember name) posted in the game day thread, summed up our issue in a nutshell:

We are 1st in the Comp for possessions but 18th for metres gained....Let that sink in....I feel sorry for our forwards

 

[Markfs]

As am I.
Let's move on.
Backline , , check.
Wingers , , check.
Centre , , ???????
Forwards ???????
Flags are won by teams with great backlines so we have the basis.
IF Grundy is injured (as I believe he is ) things are not so bad. If he isn't we have an issue.
Mids are an even bigger headache than the forward line and probably a big contributor to the forward woes.
Forwards getting horrendous entries but aside from Cox spraying them everywhere.
I know we need a couple of reliable forwards but that midfield MUST be fixed THIS OFF SEASON.
Fix the midfield and better entries improve the forward line automatically.
I have no faith in Sier so I would be looking for best big bodied mid available and a couple of steady tall forwards.

so we are trading sier.... and what other things to fix midfield?

 

[jonmacTrag]

so we are trading sier.... and what other things to fix midfield?

Don't put words in my mouth Mark - I said I have no faith in him making it - NOT that I would definitely trade him.

 

[Markfs]

Don't put words in my mouth Mark - I said I have no faith in him making it - NOT that I would definitely trade him.

i was just trying to free up some spots and money to get the midfield that you want..

 

[greening22]

You would think with a midfield of Grundy, Pendles, Adams, Sidey, Treloar, with a few others going through there, that you would at least break even in the centre clearances.
Yet time and time again we get smashed in there, it is infuriating to watch.
The players for some reason on the rare times they get the ball first want to have a perfect clearance instead of just getting it forward and they screw it up.

Massive changes needed in the centre square work for next year.

What do you expect when our mid-field coach since 2012 is Robert Harvey who had been previously sacked by Carlton! Can you tell me one mid-fielder who has improved since he arrived at the club? I can't. This club - with 1 Premiership in 30 years - simply far too easily & for far too long accepts mediocrity! The entire club needs an overhaul.

 

[Markfs]

What do you expect when our mid-field coach since 2012 is Robert Harvey who had been previously sacked by Carlton! Can you tell me one mid-fielder who has improved since he arrived at the club? I can't. This club - with 1 Premiership in 30 years - simply far too easily & for far too long accepts mediocrity! The entire club needs an overhaul.

taylor adams has improved. his disposals have more effect. he plays well in big games. his leadership has improved
adam treloar is more effective. his disposals have improved.
jamie elliott has become quite good

 

[SnakePlisskin]

taylor adams has improved. his disposals have more effect. he plays well in big games. his leadership has improved
adam treloar is more effective. his disposals have improved.
jamie elliott has become quite good

Adam Treloar is not more effective, he’s playing inside mid when should be used outside.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I am actually a strong believer in both Bucks and the club and I truly believe we aren't in terrible shape overall but direction seems lacking as the club drifts from year to year with no clear policy in many areas.
This has to come from the top and many will say - Hang Eddie - or lynch the board.
But in reality direction needs to come from the membership. Just as the AFL should be answerable to their constituent clubs so our board should be answerable to the members.
Neither is the case and football as a game and this club in particular are suffering for the lack of accountability.
I am neither young enough or healthy enough to participate but those who love the club and have the time could do nothing more positive for the club than to become involved directly.
For too long this club has drifted away from our core principles of equality and connection with the community.
The supporter base has become somewhat disaffected with the corporatization of many aspects of the club and the AFL community as a whole - there is a growing disconnect between the inner club workings and the members - very much to the detriment to the health and the culture of the club IMHO.
Change is necessary and the longer it is delayed the harsher the consequences.

I'll repeat my post you replied to, your criticism is constructive - yet many on the Pies board don't want to read it.

As far as members making a tangible difference well that hasn't happened, not in my lifetime of half a century. Corporatising the game is not just a Collingwood thing it's a league wide thing. Yet other clubs have adapted to it to win flags - we have not. Other clubs have adapted to it and our club has got a swollen head over it and does not have the same connection to it's fans like it used to.

This is not news, Pie fans have been lamenting the drifting away from it's blue collar origins for decades, yet the club continues to grow itself as a an organization rather than a successful football club. The club never gets the message, continues to rest on it's laurels and have some skewed belief that on field success will just look after itself - and it never happens. Still the message is not getting through.

Unless all of us members, pull our membership, all the fans stop attending games and the couch and the media stop reporting on Collingwood that keeps it profile going not much will change, if any change.

 

[Markfs]

I am actually a strong believer in both Bucks and the club and I truly believe we aren't in terrible shape overall but direction seems lacking as the club drifts from year to year with no clear policy in many areas.
This has to come from the top and many will say - Hang Eddie - or lynch the board.
But in reality direction needs to come from the membership. Just as the AFL should be answerable to their constituent clubs so our board should be answerable to the members.
Neither is the case and football as a game and this club in particular are suffering for the lack of accountability.
I am neither young enough or healthy enough to participate but those who love the club and have the time could do nothing more positive for the club than to become involved directly.
For too long this club has drifted away from our core principles of equality and connection with the community.
The supporter base has become somewhat disaffected with the corporatization of many aspects of the club and the AFL community as a whole - there is a growing disconnect between the inner club workings and the members - very much to the detriment to the health and the culture of the club IMHO.
Change is necessary and the longer it is delayed the harsher the consequences.

Membership should be nominating for the board. Eddie is sophisticated in maintaining his people on the board. We have alex waislitz as a vice president for 20 years and he couldnt really give a stuff about the pies. Korda and others have been on there for years.

we get a nominal footballer on the board in licuria... a welcome development.. but i dont believe it's enough.

we have no prospects as an alternative president after 20 years, as far as i can see.

peter murphy who is a waislitz employee, said that the board should have a regular turnover... most corporate boards work that way. It hasnt at collingwood. They put a couple of nominal new people on but the core remains.

people on here say that the board doesnt matter. they want to sack robert harvey.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We are 1st in the Comp for possessions but 18th for metres gained....Let that sink in....I feel sorry for our forwards

Well that all comes down to how we play, I seriously doubt that in these 3 games this year we lost out on territory to a negative effect.

The Dogs, Saints and EF games.

How we play is a whole discussion in itself and that discussion is only one part of our problem.

 

[wcv1475]

Meant to quote a post but unsure how that works the “ marks were refreencing someone else’s post, sorry for long post


“When healthy” My question is why do we have so many softy tissue injuries and keep carrying players that are susceptible for years, for example (Ben Reid) , is it our fitness/medical department are terrible or are we to sentimental seems same thing every year “oh Collingwood have injuries imagine if we had our best side”?, do we as club think all of a sudden after 5yrs this player is going to get healthy and dominate?

Midfield, so Geelong, Dangerfield, Selwood etc all seem to be big bodies same with Port’s midfield (which makes sense re Hinkley Geelong) but we don’t seem to adopt that ,we have Treloar whilst fit and fast not big bodied (won’t go into the effectiveness of his possessions), Pendle’s (legend of club) but not big bodied and now Elliot same deal. A Dangerfield type is going to when needed just smash through a pack and barrel through a player we don’t seem to value it Adams seems like the lone hand as Greenwood doesn’t get the chance. Sier I read on the board is the saviour but why is he not getting a game, and why is it just one big bodied mid being mentioned, De Goey in my mind should be getting prepped to play a Dustin Martin like role not just planted at Full Forward?

Defensive hard to judge I would say awesome, when we can win taps but get consistently smashed out of centre, who would really want to be a Collingwood defender, credit to them they have held up all year?

Coaching wise we need a shake up, Buck’s not sure, 9yrs now similar to Mick don’t disagree with a do or die attitude from the club, for years I hear he wanted a certain list so I am sure he has an influence on where we are at currently. Harvey I have said is constantly he needs to be moved on again as I have repeated (could be wrong) but sure he was Carltons Mid coach when they were constantly called downhill skiers.

Last point is we are a so called big club, but we are big supporter wise and money wise not performance wise. A credit to all of us who follow the club we stick with it, but I would genuinely love Collingwood to be hated for dominating season after season can’t think of anything better imagine teams and opposition supporters hating us for just constantly winning premierships (at least every few years, Hawthorn like) so as a club we need to get more ruthless coach and player wise I think.

 

[manicpie]

This is all a waste of time. Everyone is going crazy wanting everyone sacked. It's just a matter of time before Eddie comes out and says that we are going with Bucks for the next 3 years and then Hine will chime in with we decided to go to the draft and target midfielders as we feel that this is where games are won and lost and we will end up with one change and that will be 2MP who GC will pay half his salary. then it will be rinse and repeat until Buckley is gone

 

[jonnyd4]

I'm not sure we need to head in an entirely new direction on field, however some tinkering is definitely needed. I think some big decisions definitely need to be made this off season, and if things are not successful in 2021, unfortunately I can see us sliding down the ladder in the medium term.

From a list point of view as previously mentioned our biggest areas of concern are our on ball brigade and a key forward. All this concerning talk about salary cap issues (an issue outside of this) means we won't pick up any big names unless we trade a big fish. I'm not sure we need big names anyway, moreso a couple of supporting role players who can help us to the promise land. Maybe someone like BB on the cheap may help us forward of the ball, whilst a young bull from another club can support us in the middle like Sier did in 2018. There are seemingly a variety of options for both roles this off season, so I will be really disappointed if the club don't address these areas.

Our game plan needs to be more defined than it was this year, whilst I think the coaching group need a plan b or c if things aren't going right on field. You just need to look at last night when we were getting anhiliated in the first half, our coaching group (much like most of the year) chose to persist rather than take a risk and make some changes and try something different. I mentioned in a post in another thread about a month back that we have struggled with hub life as well as training restrictions, and am really hoping that it opens up. Hopefully then the players can grasp the game plan (Maybe not over using with hands or moving the ball slowly) and find the connection to the forward line. Particularly our ball movement has been slow and painful for majority of the year and we did not give our forward line a chance allowing opposition numbers to flood back.

Lastly, I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but did Bucks say last night in his presser that he didn't see too many Hawkins/Dixon big forwards types around and valued forwards with more than one string to their bow? I would suggest Cox would sit in this category (big KF) albeit not as good, but I think the proof would suggest ever since he came back from his eye issues he was rarely out marked. I would love to see us move the ball quickly to him like the cats and port do for their big boys. I think at worst he creates a contest and brings in our smalls into perhaps a more open forward line. I think if I interpreted that correctly, I can see why our ball movement was so horrendous this year, and slightly worry that the slow movement may continue unless Bucks finds a forward he has confidence in or he suddenly has confidence in Cox.

 

[Markfs]

maybe we need to take a leaf out of corporate australia ..... the commonwealth bank has designed a new logo for itself. as the bank says

“With the work we are doing to reinvent the organisation around a new strategy and values, now is the right time to refresh the iconic diamond, making it lighter, brighter and more dynamic and inject new meaning into the ‘can’ platform.”

the bank is obviously changing from its predatory ways, from its selfish self-serving style of banking. If the bank can do that with a change of logo, surely the pies can make some slight alteration to the magpie logo. we've done it a couple of times during eddie's reign. All the bank has done is to change that black bit to a gold bit and voila, new improved culture.

 

[Robroy22]

The new direction we speak of is a bit bank like Mark. It comes down to "Do we wanna make $$$ as a good corporate citizen or do we want to win Premierships?"

Richmond has for the past few years been the media (and hence the AFL's) "darling" doing all their good community and inner city indigenous work with Peggy and Brendan Gale up front and all the gooey smiles and cultural statements. But underneath they've actually been ruthless in their planning and willing to cut each others throats (like they always are when they're successful) and we've seen it play out this year a bit more in the media as their aggression and their sense of entitlement grows. Funny how Caro never reports on their infighting until it becomes blatantly obvious.

Every year they sacrifice young players that have got them to the big dance in favour of the higher priced recruits and they'll do it again this draft period. Players will be cut to make sure they can pay their guns. Then they'll rookie some more.

Geelong too play the "good local citizen card" and are held up as "great cultural icons" by the AFL and the Geelong Addy whilst all the time Brian Cook and Stephen Wells are finding new and invisible ways to satisfy their players and recruits wage requirements. "WE DON'T PAY OVERS" is another way of saying we pay what we have to, we just don't tell you what we use as currency.

Carlton....well we won't even go there.

My point is...isn't it time we took our heads out of the sand and started to play the same games? Besides paying Beamer out we'd be in no worse cap shape than any of the other finalists yet we keep allowing the media to beat it up. If the Tiges can afford Martin, Reiwoldt, and Lynch and still bring in players then so can we. If Geelong can pay Patrick, Tommy Hawkins, Selwood and GAJ and NOT be under $$$ pressure then I own all of Armstrong Creek!

Its time to get ruthless. I don't even mind being toothless....lets just even the playing field.

 

[Markfs]

I would think that list management - or at least the salary aspect - is the key problem at the moment.

I'd like to remind people that we got de goey because beams was traded. And we got crisp too. At the time, it was seen as a disaster for the Pies.... at least the media portrayed it as such... and a lot of members agreed. But our hands were tied, we had to do it. So it is a completely different situation to trading de goey now or phillips or scharenberg or whoever.

Remember the media surrounding seedsman going... historical ties to the pies etc etc. We cant stop the media beating up a story but we can be a lot more realistic.

Sometimes, we will need to trade players. sometimes we might lose players like cox to brisbane and not have to pay half a million dollars a year.

The reason we are struggling with the salary cap is that too few players are delivering what their money indicates. De Goey is a game breaker. He might be worth a million a year, but only if we're not paying the average player 500K a year. On the flip side, if we want to have a more even spread, then players like de goey will need to be traded and we might just un-earth another star...maybe 2.

At the moment Mihocek is hanging out for the de goey result. People talk about de goey winning matches but it was mihocek who kicked the goals at the end of the west coast game. Bang for buck, he is miles ahead of de goey.

You cant have it both ways. Richmond has used the strategy of paying key players big money and the rest scramble for a spot in the team. I think that works but it relies on good recruiting to stack up a long line of role players.

The off season is going to tell a story about the path that the pies hierarchy wants to go

 

[Doc1763]

How about we move the ball in the direction of the goals next season, that'd be a new direction.

 

[Markfs]

I'd like to make a comment about paying players big money. There is trend in society that everyone scrambles for what they think that they should have. People want to biggest house, the best cars, all the things that show to the world that they are successful. And yet, you see cases like Tom Boyd where he gets twice as much as he should have expected and he ended up unhappy about it. Dale Thomas had a bit of that too. As Jared Polec if he has enjoyed his year. Ask Brad Hill if he's felt a bit more negativity from the world because he might not be delivering what his salary says he should.

We dont know what is wrong with Grundy, but there is no doubt that his world has changed totally with the signing of his contract. You could call it security or you could call it a straitjacket. I know players can easily get out of contracts if they raise enough crap, but he is effectively locked in at the moment. He is one of the highest paid players in the competition and he is getting a lot of negative media about it - which he has never got before. Who knows if all this negativity has had an effect on him.

The point that I'm making is a lot changes when a player flips over to a high paying long term contract....and its not always all good.

On the other hand, I will gladly accept donations...

 

[Markfs]

How about we move the ball in the direction of the goals next season, that'd be a new direction.

employ these guys as coaches

 

[Pedro]

North melb poster (can’t remember name) posted in the game day thread, summed up our issue in a nutshell:

We are 1st in the Comp for possessions but 18th for metres gained....Let that sink in....I feel sorry for our forwards

Its a worrysome stat for sure. I think this year the shorter quarters has seen an overall increase in the amount of pressure sides have been able to apply. I'm not sure how you quite quantify that, but an increase in pressure combined with overuse of the ball, especially against the good sides is a recipe for disaster.

The best sides don't seem to stuff around with it as much as we do.