Society/Culture What makes a man a man?

[Evolved1]

Another phrase I wish would go the way of the dodo.

It's stupid. If you need to say that you're aspiring to being an alpha, it means you're not an alpha. You can behave like an alpha, but you're still not. You can pull chicks like an alpha, but you're not. You can own all in ******* sundry, but you're still not alpha. You can kick the sh*t out of Conor McGregor, but you're still not alpha.

Depict being Alpha for me. Do so in the narrowest fashion you can imagine. Chances are, someone will disagree with your definition upon reading. Being Alpha is less about other people and more about dissatisfaction within yourself. To want to be Alpha is to admit you're not happy. It's a cry for help through being a ********.

One picture is worth a thousand words. This, to me, is the peak of masculinity.

 

[Evolved1]

I see some value in it at times (particularly when discussing evolutionary forces), but I always cringe whenever human behaviour is compared to animals. I mean, chimps, yeah... Ok maybe, if it's a small evolutionary example. But still...

We aren't animals. I'll die on this hill and take anyone who disagrees down with me.

I'll die on the other side of the argument.

We're flesh, blood, and hormones. We invented religion to see ourselves as more than animals, but there's no objective evidence that we are.

 

[Evolved1]

I understand this perspective, I just think it's underselling just how drastically different we are to the closest possible animal match you can think of.

Sent via a device made of minerals and compounds extracted from the earth by giant machines, processed in a complicated way that most people don't understand, via wireless connections as a result of studying strange, distant celestial singularities, through an unseen network of computational devices performing advanced mathematics at inhuman speeds to communicate abstract ideas in a language no other known being could understand.

We have the same motivations as all animals.

We're carriers of DNA looking for the best means of ensuring its survival.

 

[ShanDog]

I'll die on the other side of the argument.

We're flesh, blood, and hormones. We invented religion to see ourselves as more than animals, but there's no objective evidence that we are.

It's only the big few monolithic religions that elevated us above the level of animals. Others saw us as akin to them and in harmony with the earth, particularly indigenous religions.

As far as objective evidence - how could there be? By what measures could we determine that? All life that could possibly evolve on this planet is subject to the forces of its environment, so of course we are flesh, blood and hormones. The only measure I see we can use about what an animal is, is by its fruits (pardon the pun). We build cities, think abstract thoughts, communicate detailed messages.... No other animal comes close to this. So, as mentioned, scale is my objective evidence.

 

[ferball]

Why can't the aliens just order pizza? That's what I do when mum cooks something with chicken in it.

How are they gonna use mobile devices in space when there are no towers?

 

[Spirit Level]

Dick and balls, usually

 

[Evolved1]

It's only the big few monolithic religions that elevated us above the level of animals. Others saw us as akin to them and in harmony with the earth, particularly indigenous religions.

Good point.

As far as objective evidence - how could there be? By what measures could we determine that? All life that could possibly evolve on this planet is subject to the forces of its environment, so of course we are flesh, blood and hormones. The only measure I see we can use about what an animal is, is by its fruits (pardon the pun). We build cities, think abstract thoughts, communicate detailed messages.... No other animal comes close to this. So, as mentioned, scale is my objective evidence.

Our evolutionary development has given us intelligence as a selected advantage over other species. Other species have advantages over us, so we're not 'better' per se.

Building a city is comparable to building an ant colony or beehive. We can build cities because we are more intelligent. If chimps had our intelligence, they would build better cities than us.

Where we go wrong is seeing ourselves as something more. We're just another species of animal with certain advantages.

 

[ferball]

Building a city is comparable to building an ant colony or beehive. We can build cities because we are more intelligent. If chimps had our intelligence, they would build better cities than us.

Or they wouldn't, cos frankly chilling in the bush is infinitely better than any *en city. In fact its almost proof of their intelligence that they don't.

 

[Pie eyed]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

 

[RobbieK]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

At least it stopped being about sexist bullshit.

 

[ShanDog]

Building a city is comparable to building an ant colony or beehive. We can build cities because we are more intelligent. If chimps had our intelligence, they would build better cities than us.

But they can't. That's the point. It's a false equivalent.

 

[Bombermania]

What makes a man a man?

1) Does not hit girls or women or hurts children
2) Can look after himself
3) Has interests
4) Can be sociable but also does things on their own
5) Doesn't whine on social media when they are suppose to be the most powerful man in the world
6) Knows when to have a fight or when to compromise
7) Apologies when in the wrong
8) Isn't insecure around other guys or gays
9) Has principles but is also open minded
10) Is capable of making a decision

 

[RobbieK]

What makes a man a man?

1) Does not hit girls or women
2) Can look after himself
3) Has interests
4) Can be sociable but also does things on their own
5) Doesn't whine on social media when they are suppose to be the most powerful man in the world
6) Knows when to have a fight or when to compromise
7) Apologies when in the wrong
8) Isn't insecure around other guys or gays
9) Has principles but is also open minded
10) Is capable of making a decision

This isn't "what makes a man a man".

This is "what makes a mature and functioning adult a mature and functioning adult".

 

[Bombermania]

IMO Masculinity/"manliness" is largely an outdated social construct.

No reason why women can't be assertive and strong, or why men can't be sensitive and peachy.

Except the OP's question was about men.

The concept of alpha also applies to women as seen throughout history with a number of strong women leaders.

Being a man isn't about being the strongest, take Abe Lincoln who is considered by many Americans to be the greatest U.S President yet he was not the biggest strongest bloke in the room and his cabinet had several members who openly looked down at Lincoln before joining his cabinet.

 

[Bombermania]

Another phrase I wish would go the way of the dodo.

It's stupid. If you need to say that you're aspiring to being an alpha, it means you're not an alpha. You can behave like an alpha, but you're still not. You can pull chicks like an alpha, but you're not. You can own all in ******* sundry, but you're still not alpha. You can kick the sh*t out of Conor McGregor, but you're still not alpha.

Depict being Alpha for me. Do so in the narrowest fashion you can imagine. Chances are, someone will disagree with your definition upon reading. Being Alpha is less about other people and more about dissatisfaction within yourself. To want to be Alpha is to admit you're not happy. It's a cry for help through being a ********.

Alpha is a legitimate concept but it is overused because there are only ever a few real alpha men and women in each generation. The video on chimps does a good job of explaining it.

 

[Bombermania]

Yes, we are part of nature, but it is through our defiance of our own limitations that we are no longer a mere prey species in Africa, fleeing for the treetops the second an apex predator comes arunnin'. We might still have the side effects of having been a prey species for the longest time - why fear motivates us above and beyond all else, why taking risks comes second to perpetuating the status quo - but by and large we've moved beyond the overly simplistic pack social structures and basic hierarchies.

Humans might sometimes get eaten but we are the apex predator.

 

[mr bagcroft]

What makes a man a man?

1) Does not hit girls or women
2) Can look after himself
3) Has interests
4) Can be sociable but also does things on their own
5) Doesn't whine on social media when they are suppose to be the most powerful man in the world
6) Knows when to have a fight or when to compromise
7) Apologies when in the wrong
8) Isn't insecure around other guys or gays
9) Has principles but is also open minded
10) Is capable of making a decision

This would make you my wife.

 

[Gethelred]

Humans might sometimes get eaten but we are the apex predator.

I'd argue we're beyond the concept.

 

[Mateyman]

Except the OP's question was about men.

The concept of alpha also applies to women as seen throughout history with a number of strong women leaders.

Being a man isn't about being the strongest, take Abe Lincoln who is considered by many Americans to be the greatest U.S President yet he was not the biggest strongest bloke in the room and his cabinet had several members who openly looked down at Lincoln before joining his cabinet.

Don't know about strongest but he was enormous. About 6'4" in the early/mid-1800s.

 

[Toump Ass]

8) Isn't insecure around other guys or gays

 

[ShanDog]

Don't know about strongest but he was enormous. About 6'4" in the early/mid-1800s.

He was also known as a top level wrestler. Were you thinking of someone else Bombermania ?

 

[Taylor]

This isn't "what makes a man a man".

This is "what makes a mature and functioning adult a mature and functioning adult".

I was going to jump in with that, if I'm allowed to put my 2c in.

There will be a base set of qualities that define a good person, if being a man is a measure of status then that will be further qualities leaning more towards protection, providing just as if the status of woman is positive then the qualities she holds will tend more towards nurturing and management.

As always there will be a small bit of cross over.

 

[Bombermania]

He was also known as a top level wrestler. Were you thinking of someone else Bombermania ?

When i wrote he wasn't the biggest, I meant in terns of background compared to his rivals within the Republican Party for the Presidency. Guys like Seward, Chase and Bates were wealthy men of statue compared to Lincoln yet he beat them for the nominee then invited them to his cabinet.

 

[ferball]

I was going to jump in with that, if I'm allowed to put my 2c in.

There will be a base set of qualities that define a good person, if being a man is a measure of status then that will be further qualities leaning more towards protection, providing just as if the status of woman is positive then the qualities she holds will tend more towards nurturing and management.

As always there will be a small bit of cross over.

That is why those alpha male chimps in that first chimp vid were scrupulously fair when settling disputes and de Vaal claims they will usually support the underdog and not favour their friends and social acquaintances in those situations.

If you have a leader and you trust them to be fair and not corrupt cos they are fair and not corrupt then you know that they will not only protect from external threats but also from internal ones. This is why politics in so many democracies is broken today. Cos we don't get that. But in Chimp societies the alpha looks everyone in the eye. We see our leaders on telly and they don't see us. Might have something to do with the respective situations.

There is also a video in this thread of monkeys getting the shits when they get unequal pay for the same work. Those lower status animals trust those in authority to be fair and when they aren't the lower status monkeys aren't too happy about it.

Treating your people fairly is a fundamental part of protecting them imo.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Don't know about strongest but he was enormous. About 6'4" in the early/mid-1800s.

I wonder if the stovepipe hat was a further assertion of dominance? I imagine the hat-wearing era had its own rules that are lost on us plebs these days.

Or was he overcompensating for something?