NO TROLLS Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

[FreeTK]

No, that's not how it works buddy. Rights are rights up unto the point of equality then they become petulant demands. If you want equal rights for trans in sports; why not focus on the creation of trans sporting leagues. I thought a masters degree would have taught you that? You want trans rights to impact women's rights.

You're a sexist.
Wrong. Advocating for trans inclusion is not sexist, and does not come at the expense of females.

Do men get to play in women's sporting leagues? No. Why? Because they're men.
Correct.

Do women get to play in men's sporting leagues? No. Why? Because they're women.
Correct.

Do trans get to play in women's sporting leagues? No. Why? Because they're trans.

Wrong.

It literally already happens, and has happened for years and years.

Transwomen are women, and therefore are eligible to compete in women's sports, with guidelines for their participation varying from sport to sport code to code, competition for competition.

The above is not a controversial statement

Transwomen already play in almost all sports, and some do so at a very high level, including the olympics which has a set of guidelines for trans women in order to compete sports.

Trans women have literally been competing in women's sports for decades. See Renee Richards.

Why all the outrage, now?

If sex doesn't matter then why separate leagues at all? You're okay with that?
As it stands, leagues are not based on sex, but instead gender identity, which is why the AFL have inclusion policy to facilitate the participation of trans women in women's sport based on their GENDER IDENTITY, NOT SEX

And ummm, just an FYI - nobody believes you even have a Cert IV, let alone a masters. You're very unintelligent mate. You literally can't communicate correctly.

That's fine. People can choose to believe what they like.

"Separate but equal" point of view that you espouse is in fact not equal at all. It is an argument that had its origins in the South to justify segregated schools, without violating the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.

Originally, separate but equal was upheld as a constitutional argument under Plessy vs Fergusson. However, in the landmark case I am sure we have all heard of (please tell me you have heard of it) Brown vs Board of Education, the supreme court determined that school segregation was illegal under the US constitution's 14th amendment equal protection clause. The Supreme court said this in handin down their verdict rejecting "separate but equal" argument:

"We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment."

That ruling set a precedent, not just in USA, but equal rights arguments around the world. It is not sufficient to argue "equal but different". This argument has been put forward and shot down in other human rights arguments too.

It is that same reason that we have "marriage equality" and the argument for civil unions for LGBTQIA+ people and marriage for heteros was rejected in concept by LGBTQIA+ community around the world, and shot down in court when people tried to exclude LGBtQIA+ from marriage around the globe.

There will be no "trans leagues", sports leagues around the world already have policies and guidelines to facilitate participation of trans people in sport, and those guidelines are rightly becoming less and less onerous on trans athletes, as society moves towards social justice and human rights.

And that is a good thing.

'Sport is a fundamental right for all Australians': Transgender athletes welcome inclusion guidelines

Eight peak Australian sporting bodies have unveiled guidelines for the inclusion for transgender people in their sports.

www.abc.net.au

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Nah, he’s a bloke you’re opinion doesn’t count much outside of BF i know it makes you feel good inside though.

Ok, so medical transitions performed by medical experts arent realand they dont know what they are talking about?

 

[theyellowsash]

Oh god, we just got rid of one of you morons... are you here to take his place?

What, one of those 'idiots' who thinks that people shouldn't be discriminated against because of their gender?

Or one of those 'idiots' who doesn't believe that everyone on the left is just some kind of radical that is so tolerant that they go full circle back into bigotry.

I'll happily be both. It's called being a decent human being.

 

[Fryman]

Nah, shes a woman

Can you give me your definition of a woman?

 

[Ron The Bear]

How dare people be intolerant to bigotry

It's not democratic to support a minority (in this case a minority of one) insinuating their aspirations upon the majority to the latter's discomfort/objections.

Makes no difference to me in a narrow sense as I'm not an AFLW follower. If the players overwhelmingly support Mouncey's right to compete against them (and by extension, all similar man-women), I'm not going to stand in the way.

 

[Black white]

What, one of those 'idiots' who thinks that people shouldn't be discriminated against because of their gender?

Or one of those 'idiots' who doesn't believe that everyone on the left is just some kind of radical that is so tolerant that they go full circle back into bigotry.

I'll happily be both. It's called being a decent human being.

Sounds like you're a bigot to me

 

[Chubberson]

If we always stuck with the status quo we would still be living in caves and grunting.




Nah, shes a woman

Biological Male. Your welcome.

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Biological Male. Your welcome.

She was born a male, yes

 

[FreeTK]

Do you think it's just one gigantic coincidence that Castor has this condition also absolutely destroys her elite female competitors? The science may not be conclusive yet, but based on pretty damn common sense her male attributes are helping her, and it's not fair to all the females who worked their whole lives for this race only to lose to someone who isn't biologically female, must be a real kick in the face.

I am unsure about how much of Semenya's performance is down to her naturally occurring testosterone.

But also - Caster isn't even Trans. She literally has a uterus, she is a women who was born with a uterus and internal testes.

She had a choice - take meds to lower her naturally occurring testosterone, or not compete.

Imagine telling Sam Mitchell only to use his right boot.

And Caster doesn't even hold the World REcord for 800 or 1500 metres by the way.

Those records are held by ACTUAL CHEATS.

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Can you give me your definition of a woman?

If they are not women, then why are they seen as women by medical experts? Are you saying you know better than the medical world?

 

[Fryman]

If they are not women, then why are they seen as women by medical experts? Are you saying you know better than the medical world?

You’re arguing she’s a woman.

So what is your definition of one?

It can’t be that hard to define can it, surely you’ve actually thought about the issue before spouting off meaningless woke platitudes.

 

[RichLeMonde]

I'm not entirely sure that women are excluded from competing in all of men's sport though strictly. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of sports, if not all; women would simply not be able to compete with men and would be nowhere near their standard, particularly at the elite level where the differences are vast and more pronounced.

The physiological advantages men have over women are well documented (despite some wanting to deny them) and are essentially across the board in areas that affect elite athletes of all kinds. Using our game for example, a team of the very best AFLW players would almost certainly struggle against some of the most amateur and uncommitted local men's football teams. Even a sport like Darts; men's better spatial and hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement among a whole host of other factors would see them be far too good, even though there would be no obvious physical barrier to a mixed competition. The list would go on... I'm struggling to think of any physical sport where there would be a true mixed competition. Obvious ones like Chess and Poker for example are currently mixed with no issues and even then men make up the strong majority at the elite end.

If the world went ahead with your poorly thought out idea of ability based sports, we would essentially have what we had several years ago, where the only real elite sport on offer was played by men. What sport could women possibly compete with men in? A cursory glance at Olympic records should give anyone a decent snapshot of how big the gap is.

Segregating sport on the basis of gender is as arbitrary as segregating basketball on the basis of height, or sprinting on the basis of ethnicity. Of course you're right in that there would be basically no women involved at the elite end. I just don't see why that's a problem. Why is it better to watch an elite women's team than a schoolboys team who could thrash them? You can say that it's unfair to women, but it's no more unfair than basketball currently is for shorter (or average height) people, or runners who, well, aren't fast at running.

 

[Bombermania]

If they are not women, then why are they seen as women by medical experts? Are you saying you know better than the medical world?

What the medical experts are doing is accepting her gender identity as a women and i don't think anyone here is disputing that but the question for the AFLW is how to manage this sport and the courts will determine the legalities of the rules against accepted human rights practices and this is where i think the case could go either way.

 

[FreeTK]

You're back after some googling so you can 'win' I see. So is a separation of men/women's league also separate-but-equal? No? Why not? Is it maybe because some want to pick and choose what is? No one should ever have been excluded from marriage and the fact it took us so long to get past that is a disgrace and I firmly fought for that with friends who I supported with all my heart.

BUT, the difference between us is that I have a working brain so I can actually separate issues and logically form opinions based on merit, reasoning and an actual open mind. You see trans and you go red clearly. Because everyone's intolerant if they adhere to any opinion other than your piss-weak thoughts.

Trans women are women, and transwomen are able to participate in women's sports.

Almost all sporting organisations have guidelines to facilitate participation of trans women in sport, and the list of orgs is increasing.

That's the bottom line mate.

 

[Black white]

Yes, and the problem with that is?

Hypocrisy for a start

 

[ShanDog]

Thread is being locked until I get the chance to clean up all the off-topic derailments and personal spats.

This can be an emotive issue, but posters are reminded of the rules of the main board. Stick by 'em, or lose your access.

 

[ShanDog]

Ok, thread unlocked again.

Take note: the thread needs to stay on topic. Discuss the issue at hand (trans rights regarding sport, fairness, the case against the AFL etc).

There was a clear troll or two who derailed this and made us all waste our time. This won't be tolerated. Next culprit can have a board ban.

Ta for Shan.

 

[Kozzie_Magic]

Simple solution, you can only play AFLW if you were born a female, your self appointed gender should be irrelevant

 

[DanWA]

Born female = play AFLW
Born male = play AFL

 

[Senor M]

Simple solution, you can only play AFLW if you were born a female, your self appointed gender should be irrelevant

Born female = play AFLW
Born male = play AFL

...but that's not what the AFLW Gender Diversity policy states:

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

womens.afl

 

[WCE_phil]

...but that's not what the AFLW Gender Diversity policy states:

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

womens.afl

Someone who went through puberty and took all the growth and testosterone benefits out of that shouldn't be allowed to compete in elite level sport with natural born females. Sport is about a fair competition. It is in essence the same as a female taking human growth hormone and testosterone supplements from 12-18 and then after their hormone levels are back to defined norms saying hey, im not cheating, my hormones are at the right level I just happen to be six inches taller, have a significantly larger and stronger frame and more muscle mass, oops. The benefit to competition has already happened.

This is what makes it unfair.

 

[Suspense]

Do you think it's just one gigantic coincidence that Castor has this condition also absolutely destroys her elite female competitors? The science may not be conclusive yet, but based on pretty damn common sense her male attributes are helping her, and it's not fair to all the females who worked their whole lives for this race only to lose to someone who isn't biologically female, must be a real kick in the face.

Not at all - in fact, I argued the opposite that "the relative overrepresentation of suspected PAIS athletes in female categories of elite sports would suggest that it is significant enough to require some form of re-categorisation for these individuals".

 

[Furn2]

There's over 3000 different genetic expression between male and female muscle tissue. Then there's overall size and bone density, lung capacity etc.

It's not as simple as just lowering testosterone.

 

[Kwality]

Segregating sport on the basis of gender is as arbitrary as segregating basketball on the basis of height, or sprinting on the basis of ethnicity. Of course you're right in that there would be basically no women involved at the elite end. I just don't see why that's a problem. Why is it better to watch an elite women's team than a schoolboys team who could thrash them? You can say that it's unfair to women, but it's no more unfair than basketball currently is for shorter (or average height) people, or runners who, well, aren't fast at running.

I'm more likely to watch a Womens Grand Slam final than the blokes. Same applies to basketball.
Such is life.

 

[zill]

There's over 3000 different genetic expression between male and female muscle tissue. Then there's overall size and bone density, lung capacity etc.

It's not as simple as just lowering testosterone.

And when a testosterone level is defined, it is set ridiculously high.

The current IOC guidelines date back to November 2015. Athletes who transition from male to female can attempt to qualify to compete in the women’s category without needing bottom surgery — an operation to remove their testes, called an orchiectomy, or a more complex operation commonly called gender confirmation surgery or GCS — so long as their total testosterone level in serum is kept below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months.

In the 15 years since the first iteration of transgender inclusion in Olympic competition, not one trans athlete has even qualified, never mind competed in the games.

Although sports organizations around the world have adopted the IOC rules, some question its efficacy because an average women’s testosterone levels tend to range between 0.12 and 1.79 nmol/l, while an average man’s levels are typically between 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/l.

Report: IOC delaying stricter rules for trans athletes because scientists can’t agree

The Guardian reports scientists are struggling to reach consensus on proposed new guidelines for transgender athletes.

www.outsports.com

 

[Laphroaig]

It's not as simple as just lowering testosterone.

Indeed.

Here is a sample list of some of the known physiological differences between males and females. Some acquired in the womb, some at puberty and some acquired in gestation and enhanced at puberty:

• Males have significantly higher muscle mass as a proportion of total body size.
• Males have a much higher conversion of excess energy into muscle growth, whereas the female body prefers to divert more excess energy to fat reserves.
• Females also have significantly more latent fat cells, waiting to be filled
• Males have stronger and denser bones, allowing application of higher force and also tolerance of higher received force. Longer too, which enhances power output by longer levers
• Males have thicker and stronger connective tissue, raising the force / injury threshold
• Males have significantly larger lungs AND significantly larger main airways AND significantly larger oxygen transfer airways AND a significantly faster transfer rate at the boundary. Resulting total male advantage in oxygen throughput under peak exertion is in excess of 50%
• The structure of the female pelvis / hip produces a 15-20% mechanical disadvantage compared to the male joint. The female hip structure also delivers energy to the legs at an odd angle - which along with the weaker connective tissue increases the injury rate at a given level of exertion.

Post puberty lowering of testosterone might (eventually) partly reduce the first on the list.

The rest, no change.

You might as well argue that its no problem allowing a grown man who longs for his childhood to play Under 16s for the rest of his life.