Scott Morrison - How Long? Part 3

[Chief]

Next thread:

Scott Morrison - How Long? Part 4

This is part 4. Part 5 is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/scott-morrison-how-long-part-5-the-stroll-out.1275975/

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Hawk Dork]

If the Greens ever got into a position where they were capable of changing things they would be beholden to the same power dynamics that prevent the major parties from doing so

Who ?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

If the Greens ever got into a position where they were capable of changing things they would be beholden to the same power dynamics that prevent the major parties from doing so

Well no, that's a convenient lazy myth mostly promulgated by those who wish to tut-tut about shocking criminal behaviour but deep down just want the cosy status quo to continue.

I will grant that the Greens have not had anywhere near the degree of temptations of office that the Lib/Labs have had, but to the degree that we can assess their behaviour so far, their noses are pretty clean.

And their actual policy platform is streets ahead in terms of empowerment of women, cleaning up corruption, and donations reform. Only a partisan fool would argue otherwise.

Einstein's definition of madness comes to mind.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

And as federal politicians resist any sort of oversight at every step, they are also actively defunding and reducing government oversight and regulation outside of government.

It is getting to the point where no one is watching the government and the government are watching no one except their usual whipping boys - we have a new hotline to dob in dole bludgers, refugees, etc.

Government in Australia has degenerated to the point where they are not even governing any more, they are simply manipulating the rules of the game (government are first and foremost law makers) to suit themselves and their sponsors and this is often at the expense of the general public.

Very well put mate.

 

[Saint]

I had a mortgage at 18% under Keating. The bloke was and is a turnip. Now living in palatial circumstances with his superannuation that he set up with all his fancy effing clocks.

You must have bought after 1984 then, because Interest rates peaked at 21% under John Howard's Treasury. The highest they've ever been. So if high interest rates are a measure of bad Government, then Fraser/Howard was the worst Government on record.

 

[Caesar]

Well no, that's a convenient lazy myth mostly promulgated by those who wish to tut-tut about shocking criminal behaviour but deep down just want the cosy status quo to continue.

It's about acknowledging the reality that systems act on individuals more than individuals act on systems

The ALP and various Coalition parties encompass a wide gamut of people with very different backgrounds, values, moralities and personal qualities. It is naive to observe common patterns in the way they operate within the system and imagine that the Greens would somehow be immune if placed in the same position

There are of course things that would be different with the Greens in charge of the country, but to cast them as the magic solution to embedded structural problems with our system of government is risible. They are just another set of politicians.

 

[Chief]

They are just another set of politicians.

Why did they choose to join the Greens? Surely if they were all the same, they'd have chosen a party with more scope for grift?

 

[Caesar]

Why did they choose to join the Greens? Surely if they were all the same, they'd have chosen a party with more scope for grift?

I didn't say they were all the same, rather that they have similarities that would out if placed in similar circumstances

 

[QuietB]

You must have bought after 1984 then, because Interest rates peaked at 21% under John Howard's Treasury. The highest they've ever been. So if high interest rates are a measure of bad Government, then Fraser/Howard was the worst Government on record.

Don't forget unemployment was at 10% and inflation was at 10% at the end of the Fraser/Howard years. Masterful economic performance.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Don't forget unemployment was at 10% and inflation was at 10% at the end of the Fraser/Howard years. Masterful economic performance.

and yet he got his teeth straightened, eye brows trimmed,laser eye surgery put in a green tarcky and re-badged as Honest John

 

[TheMase]

Don't forget unemployment was at 10% and inflation was at 10% at the end of the Fraser/Howard years. Masterful economic performance.

And Howard successfully convinced the electorate after the 96 election that he paid off “Keatings debt” despite the fact half of the debt carried over to the Hawke government from Howard’s time as treasurer in the Fraser government...

 

[Caesar]

This is like the bushfires all over again, when called upon to show leadership Morrison goes missing.

That Ledru-Rollin quote always comes to mind about Morrison

 

[Saint]

Why did they choose to join the Greens? Surely if they were all the same, they'd have chosen a party with more scope for grift?

Aligns with their beliefs, just like choosing between ALP and LNP. Reduced corruption is just one of the Greens' policy positions. Most people agree with it, but most people don't follow them because of some of the other more extreme positions held by the Greens.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Our economic system is largely based on the idea that competition breeds better quality and better results for the consumer. Why should this not apply to politics too? The more realistic competition there is for an electorate, the better a politician has to be at connecting with the community and addressing their concerns to retain their seat. Yes, there are scare tactics and media manipulations at play, but at least at a local level I reckon there's only so long that such scams can work on genuinely non-aligned voters.

Similarly, you could argue that the more realistic winners there are for an electorate, the less likely it is that corruption will take firm root, because patronage networks beholden to one party are often swept out by another (often to be replaced with their own, true, but one set of interests can't have a free run for generations). And perceived but unprosecuted corruption is less likely to be tolerated by voters in a swinging or marginal electorate, or else Barnaby Joyce and Angus Taylor wouldn't be sitting in Parliament right now. (I tried thinking of a Labor politician as an example of that point also, but I couldn't think of one because they often get kicked out of the party instead.)

So really we should be promoting several alternative parties and independents, not just the Greens, if we want a less corrupt system. Although I wouldn't really trust Palmer or One Nation to not be corrupt, given everything Palmer does is in service of his mining empire and ON is being run behind the scenes by James Ashby, who was implicated in the Al Jazeera - NRA scandal. Still, I'm sure there are more sober candidates out there.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

And Howard successfully convinced the electorate after the 96 election that he paid off “Keatings debt” despite the fact half of the debt carried over to the Hawke government from Howard’s time as treasurer in the Fraser government...

And Keating's reforms gave us a structural surplus, man was so good at his job that people think Howard and the LNP are "good economic managers".

When Lil Johhny got turfed we were in a large structural deficit and blew the mining boom, trillions wasted and nothing to show for it.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It's about acknowledging the reality that systems act on individuals more than individuals act on systems

The ALP and various Coalition parties encompass a wide gamut of people with very different backgrounds, values, moralities and personal qualities. It is naive to observe common patterns in the way they operate within the system and imagine that the Greens would somehow be immune if placed in the same position

There are of course things that would be different with the Greens in charge of the country, but to cast them as the magic solution to embedded structural problems with our system of government is risible. They are just another set of politicians.

I am not casting them as a magic solution so I don't know why you would say that.

I am saying two things. The current binary option is the very definition of Einstein's definite of madness. Both “major” parties have had ample opportunity to get their act together and they are only getting worse. The Coalition is much more corrupt than Labor, but that doesn't mean Labor aren't still dodgy AF.

Secondly, the Greens have specific policy focus on political corruption and on empowerment of and respect for women, two interrelated issues under discussion here. It is simply head-in-the-sand stuff to pretend they do not go way beyond anything Labor is offering in this regard.

 

[Chief]

Our economic system is largely based on the idea that competition breeds better quality and better results for the consumer. Why should this not apply to politics too? The more realistic competition there is for an electorate, the better a politician has to be at connecting with the community and addressing their concerns to retain their seat. Yes, there are scare tactics and media manipulations at play, but at least at a local level I reckon there's only so long that such scams can work on genuinely non-aligned voters.

Similarly, you could argue that the more realistic winners there are for an electorate, the less likely it is that corruption will take firm root, because patronage networks beholden to one party are often swept out by another (often to be replaced with their own, true, but one set of interests can't have a free run for generations). And perceived but unprosecuted corruption is less likely to be tolerated by voters in a swinging or marginal electorate, or else Barnaby Joyce and Angus Taylor wouldn't be sitting in Parliament right now. (I tried thinking of a Labor politician as an example of that point also, but I couldn't think of one because they often get kicked out of the party instead.)

So really we should be promoting several alternative parties, not just the Greens, if we want a less corrupt system. Although I wouldn't really trust Palmer or One Nation to not be corrupt, given everything Palmer does is in service of his mining empire and ON is being run behind the scenes by James Ashby, who was implicated in the Al Jazeera - NRA scandal. Still, I'm sure there are more sober parties out there.

Make every single person in an electorate automatically eligible to be voted in as the local MP.

To get your name on the ballot paper you have to jump through the hoops, but anyone can write your name in and have the vote count.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Make every single person in an electorate automatically eligible to be voted in as the local MP.

To get your name on the ballot paper you have to jump through the hoops, but anyone can write your name in and have the vote count.

How is that going to change anything unless one of them can get tens of thousands of votes? And how will it work in terms of preferencing?

 

[Chief]

How is that going to change anything unless one of them can get tens of thousands of votes? And how will it work in terms of preferencing?

Think of the lols!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So really we should be promoting several alternative parties and independents, not just the Greens, if we want a less corrupt system. Although I wouldn't really trust Palmer or One Nation to not be corrupt, given everything Palmer does is in service of his mining empire and ON is being run behind the scenes by James Ashby, who was implicated in the Al Jazeera - NRA scandal. Still, I'm sure there are more sober candidates out there.

Palmer is already corrupt. Basically bought the last election for Morrison. He was never serious about getting any of his candidates actually into office. All about beating up Labor on behalf of the Coalition with a view to favours down the track.

I just can't see the critical mass for another progressive party. Whenever discussing Oz culture and Oz politics, I think it's important to keep in the back of one's mind that the defining characteristic is always that everything here is a bit half-arsed.

 

[Punt rd end]

Published in August 2014

'Police investigated rape claims against Bill Shorten from the 1980s'

Deputy Labor leader Tanya Plibersek has revealed her leader and 'friend' Bill Shorten has had a 'pretty bad week' following historical rape allegations levelled against him.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Saint]

You've basically just described the existing system, but to have a functional ballot paper (i.e. less than 10,000 names) and so that everyone can do some analysis of the options put forward, there needs to be some limit. My local ballot paper has about 8 options, which seems like plenty to me. RWNJs, Left wing anarchists, socialists, Christians, Animal Liberationists, everyone gets a run.

If there was more than 10 options, there's no way a voter could make an informed decision without spending days studying.

And in 90% of electorates, we have one of two parties. I actually think the nomination part of our democracy works quite well, though the ALP/LNP have made sure campaign finance laws suit larger parties better than smaller ones. Grass roots well-run campaigns still win, such as Indi or Warringah.

 

[Saint]

Published in August 2014

'Police investigated rape claims against Bill Shorten from the 1980s'

Deputy Labor leader Tanya Plibersek has revealed her leader and 'friend' Bill Shorten has had a 'pretty bad week' following historical rape allegations levelled against him.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It says something that every year there are about 3 allegations made against LNP members and the best the LNP media machine can come up with is the same single allegation against one person which has been investigated and closed.

The ratio must be about 20:1 by now. I actually thought Henderson wasn't all that bad, but this is very ordinary by her.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Palmer is already corrupt. Basically bought the last election for Morrison. He was never serious about getting any of his candidates actually into office. All about beating up Labor on behalf of the Coalition with a view to favours down the track.

Yes, that's why I said I wouldn't trust him or his party to not be corrupt. They had their turn at being the protest vote against the majors and in parliament they proved themselves to just be stooges for Palmer's mining empire. Anyway...

I just can't see the critical mass for another progressive party. Whenever discussing Oz culture and Oz politics, I think it's important to keep in the back of one's mind that the defining characteristic is always that everything here is a bit half-arsed.

I agree there's no room at present for another progressive party, and I said as much in this thread. But who said any new party or candidates must be progressive in order to be beneficial for reducing corruption? If SFF or local independents can mount serious challenges to Joyce and Taylor, that would be a win for the Australian public. If some centrist party akin to a modern day version of the Democrats can gain traction, that would be a good thing for the public too.

 

[Saint]

Palmer is already corrupt. Basically bought the last election for Morrison. He was never serious about getting any of his candidates actually into office. All about beating up Labor on behalf of the Coalition with a view to favours down the track.

I just can't see the critical mass for another progressive party. Whenever discussing Oz culture and Oz politics, I think it's important to keep in the back of one's mind that the defining characteristic is always that everything here is a bit half-arsed.

It's hardly a new tactic. The LNP have been letting One Nation do it for two decades. And the Greens do the same thing for the ALP.

Palmer is just doing what the electoral laws allow, and will always allow. He had an ideology and he pursued it. Money will always influence politics.

It's not that everything here is half-arsed, it's that our politicians and many officials are well out of their depth and earn less than people digging stuff out of the ground. They're doing the best they can, they're just objectively inept. Morrison being the prime example of this.

 

[Heisenberg_]

Nor has Andrews despite the watered down inquiry. Who did sign those contracts, anyone know?

This thread is about our incompetent and corrupt Prime Minister.
If you want to talk about Dan Andrews take it to the relevant thread