Apple Isle Showdown: Tas Govt threatens to end Hawks, North deals if no plan for 19th side

[Bunk Moreland]

The report says that there are only two avenues to improve competitive balance

- multi-decade dominance which is not possible with the salary cap, draft and financial equalisation (citing Hawthorn 1971 to 1991)
- relocation (citing Sydney post 1982)

Colin Carter is an ex AFL Commissioner, Club president and was consulted by the AFL to prepare the report so it’s fair to say he is a bit of an insider.

Given relocation was the original approach to the Gold Coast I would say that the commission and executive probably have a preference for it (although they knocked by Fitzroy’s attempts at a relocation to Canberra Roylion )

Fair enough. What now?

Existing Tassie relationship - Hawthorn, North

In the “club size” department - using revenue as the guide - there’s a big gap among Melbourne clubs after Carlton ($66m).

Melbourne $49m
St Kilda $47m
Bulldogs $45m
North $45m

They’re 2019 so pre COVID.

So in terms of a relocation, is it fair to say we have 5 in an initial conversation: Hawthorn, North, Melbourne, Bulldogs, St Kilda.

Would any of them be interested?

 

[Hawkk]

Fair enough. What now?

Existing Tassie relationship - Hawthorn, North

In the “club size” department - using revenue as the guide - there’s a big gap among Melbourne clubs after Carlton ($66m).

Melbourne $49m
St Kilda $47m
Bulldogs $45m
North $45m

They’re 2019 so pre COVID.

So in terms of a relocation, is it fair to say we have 5 in an initial conversation: Hawthorn, North, Melbourne, Bulldogs, St Kilda.

Would any of them be interested?

Hawthorn $76.2m (2nd)

Why is Hawthorn in the conversation when it is 2nd amongst Victoria clubs for revenue?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Why is Hawthorn in the conversation when it is 2nd for Victoria in revenue?

Existing Tassie relationship.

 

[footyfan1978]

Here is the quote from Gil yesterday regarding the relocation option - "(It) would arguably produce a more sustainable outcome and therefore should be considered before a 19th licence."

They don't seem to want a 19th licence according to this quote

I do not want a 19th licence either but I want a Tassie team in the league.
But if becomes a choice between a Tassie team and a 19th team, Tassie trumps the alternative of no Tassie team in league.
As Carter said, 19 teams is certainly able to work.
Nothing I heard in quotes seems to say otherwise.

 

[Hawkk]

Existing Tassie relationship.

Fair enough, hopefully that ends soon

 

[footyfan1978]

No, Port and Norwood should have entered.
The Crows were the mistake

Bingo!!!
Bastard child club.

 

[Caj]

What a joke, as if Tasmania could sustain an AFL team, particularly in a post Covid world.

the media pile on on this topic is embarrassing, they’re all too politically correct to state what any normal person can plainly see

 

[footyfan1978]

The Crows had been put together in 1990 and announced to enter in 1991 and once that happened the writing was on the wall. The WT/Woodville merger took place in 1990 also. Without the merger I doubt either would have survived.
All SANFL clubs have been decimated of support since the AFL invasion

Thanks for pointing out what actual year it happened. So the news of it got lost in all the other stuff going on that year.

Yes, all SANFL clubs have been decimated since the AFL took over all of football.
VFA, SANFL and WAFL clubs that survived in name have their support decimated.
It is why I thought, if could go back in time machine and right a wrong the AFL should have come to an agreement that AFL footy clubs would only play their round up to Saturday night and Sunday would be clear ground for other leagues to be on the footy fan radar all Sunday. When VFA was only footy on Sunday here as a kid it had a good following because the premier league round was done on Saturday but once the big league invaded Sunday it slowly killed the following VFA had and is no longer. If VFA, SANFL and WAFL had Sunday all to themselves we could have had the best of both worlds as footy fans. Instead , the AFL took over the whole weekend of footy and left no real room for what was left to have any decent support. Biggest mistakes footy has ever done to the footy landscape.

 

[Kwality]

Fair enough, hopefully that ends soon

Gutwein isnt going to fund it, so effectively its gone, maybe?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Gutwein isnt going to fund it, so effectively its gone, maybe?

Maybe, maybe not. He’s a politician, so the only certainty is that he’s full of s**t.

He’s talking tough because it’s popular in the electorate. Who knows what will actually happen.

 

[Hawkk]

Gutwein isnt going to fund it, so effectively its gone, maybe?

Kennett salvaged it once before when it looked lost and the AFL threw $10m at us to make sure we went quietly I wouldn’t write him off just yet!



Of course had that happened North would have played 7 home games in Tasmania from 2011

 

[sherb]

It is not the same at all. Sydney was not a football market so no footy fans to upset in Sydney by relocating a team there.
Tasmania are football fans already. Many of them are not going to just embrace a relocated team there.

Exactly.

Why does this have to be explained over and over and over again?

 

[nick1408]

Here is the quote from Gil yesterday regarding the relocation option - "(It) would arguably produce a more sustainable outcome and therefore should be considered before a 19th licence."

They don't seem to want a 19th licence according to this quote and Carter's report backs this up by saying it's not financially responsible to do so in the Covid environment. They've literally said they will consider a relocation or JV option before a 19th licence.

Page 3 (and a bit of page 4) states:

Reaching a ’yes’ decision should not be influenced by COVID, but the implementation timetable should. The AFL and the clubs will reasonably minimise new financial risks and the clubs should not be asked for a final decision at a time when AFL industry finances are under stress. In the interim, effort can go into agreeing matters such as the Tasmanian Government contribution as well as the possibility of relocation or joint venture arrangements. We note that the Task Force presented its report in 2019 and proposed the entry of a Tasmanian team six years later in 2025. The AFL can and should take time to get this right.

Herein lies a lot of issues I have with the report. I understand this bit as saying "Just accept a Tasmanian side is some guise but don't put a closeish timeframe on it." Others have understood this differently. It's a foot in each camp.

Nowhere does Carter backup that a 19th team is unviable. In fact, page 6 states:

The risk of starting a new team in Tasmania can be managed regardless of which pathway is chosen. The Tasmanian Government’s financial support must be confirmed in advance. The appetite for buying memberships can also be tested in advance. And the problems commonly raised – such as player retention, talent dilution and intrastate rivalries – mostly can be managed. Agreed, a 19- team competition with its odd number of teams is not perfect, but the case for it still stands. That said, a relocation or joint venture which has strong support for the team outside Tasmania would be even better.

So a 19th team can be managed but Carter just doesn't see it as the best option. Essentially, if no current AFL team wants to relocate then a 19th licence should be issued. The problem is, with no timeframes then as the AFL stated yesterday it may be 50-100 years away.

 

[sherb]

Tasmania wants its own AFL team, not the Carter report's 13,000 words of fence-sitting

Colin Carter's much-anticipated report makes a compelling case for a Tasmanian AFL team, but football lovers in the Apple Isle will not be inspired by the suggestion that they need Victorian help.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sherb]

ABC quoting this from Goyder.

Well, **** me, I wonder why complete mismanagement of football in the state by the AFL has resulted in a lack of talent coming through?

In any case, why is it even an issue for a Tasmanian AFL side when it's a national draft?

Lack of local talent wasn't a problem for putting sides in the Gold Coast or Western Sydney - with them it was Field of Dreams stuff (put a team in, the talent will come).

But now, to muddy the waters, the AFL Commission head decides it is a potential roadblock for Tassie.

They know full well that if they start trying to fix Tassie football, and by putting a team there as part of that process, the state will start producing the talent again in time.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

What a joke, as if Tasmania could sustain an AFL team, particularly in a post Covid world.

the media pile on on this topic is embarrassing, they’re all too politically correct to state what any normal person can plainly see

Tasmania has had the best performing economy in the country for the last 6 consecutive quarters

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

This will never work, even if it was the saints and their link with Baldock. Tassie won't adopt an existing team, so it's just moving a financial problem from Melbourne to Tassie.
How a new team in Tassie, is not viable is beyond me. Carter was sheepish in his response to Tim lane on aw suggesting no one in Tassie wants a team, I think that's the AFL thoughts on it, and the paper holds up their view. The facts are they have 2 AFL standard grounds that host 8 AFL games a year, so the stadiums can't be that bad and can be used until they are in profit. The other is that you would expect every person in Tassie to switch their team to Tassie, they'd have 100,000 membership straight away, add to the fact I think they'd be most Victorians second team where many would buy a Vic membership, it's a no brainer. The problem is it will show up both gws, gc and a few Vic clubs, forcing them to fold and egg on the AFL face for their extension team locations. I can't see player retention being a big problem, Hobart's a great place, and 40 minutes on the plane from melbs, so it's easy access from where most of the draft is taken. Add to the fact they'd having a coaching panel of Robert Shaw, Rodney eade, Brendan Bolton and Chris Fagan, with the likes of Tarryn Thomas to head back, with a potential academy it would invigorate the state and would dectrantalise Melbourne's population, which has shown how big a problem most of out population is in one city during covid

I seriously doubt the 'Carter report' will reveal any startling revelations.

But I also think you'll find we are getting closer to the 'Tasmanian Kangaroos' or the Tasmanian Saints' that most are aware of.

Through he that knows she that knows he - there has been ongoing back-room meetings for almost two years now discussing the 'legalities' of club licensing and possible future relocations. I also think you'll find the recent renaming of the 'VFL league' to the 'Eastern AFL' is not coincidence...?

Think modern version of Fitzroy FC and Brisbane Lions, in reference to Fitzroy maintaining their operating license at a local level and Brisbane being issued a new AFL operating license using Fitzroy's brand etc...

A reminder that legally the AFL (and the NRL) are registered as a 'Community Organization' and therefore the AFL commission and by extension it's licensed clubs enjoy tax exemptions similar to religious entities.
However to maintain this, a mandate requires the AFL must actively promote and expand the sports participation across all society, which is one the main reasons the AFLW was brought forward a few years earlier than planned.

Watch this space...

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

So how can Geelong maintain a team? How can gold coast and he's with no members. Tassie would be no different to the cats small stadium good profit from their stadium deal, high membership, if 100,000 members don't sign up straight away I'd be surprised, add that it will be most people's second team they could have the highest membership in the AFL.

Tassie will withdraw their finances and right so from north and the hawks which could really impact these clubs and invest into the b-ball on the back of the bronze medal and party mills, poor thinking by the AFL

What a joke, as if Tasmania could sustain an AFL team, particularly in a post Covid world.

the media pile on on this topic is embarrassing, they’re all too politically correct to state what any normal person can plainly see

 

[fargothegreat]

What a joke, as if Tasmania could sustain an AFL team, particularly in a post Covid world.

the media pile on on this topic is embarrassing, they’re all too politically correct to state what any normal person can plainly see

Have you read the business case or the review? Both use facts rather than just an uneducated opinion.

 

[JohnZ]

Hawthorn $76.2m (2nd)

Why is Hawthorn in the conversation when it is 2nd amongst Victoria clubs for revenue?

Well their existing deal with Tassie would show some commitment no? Unless they're only in it for the cash which is $4m per year.

Hawthorn also has income derived from their pubs and gaming entities. $12m from pokies, $8m from the bistro and $4m from accommodation. As most clubs have done, I'm assuming at some point Hawthorn would be exiting this business which would be a loss of $24m in operating revenue. $28m total if you include the tassie sponsorship.

That drops the 2019 revenue from $76m to $48m which is down there with Melbourne, Saints, North and Dogs with $45m to $50m in revenue. For comparison Geelong has $60m annual revenue.

 

[Hodgey 15]

What a joke, as if Tasmania could sustain an AFL team, particularly in a post Covid world.

the media pile on on this topic is embarrassing, they’re all too politically correct to state what any normal person can plainly see

What a load of rubbish.

On SM-G950F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Hawkk]

Well their existing deal with Tassie would show some commitment no? Unless they're only in it for the cash which is $4m per year.

Hawthorn also has income derived from their pubs and gaming entities. $12m from pokies, $8m from the bistro and $4m from accommodation. As most clubs have done, I'm assuming at some point Hawthorn would be exiting this business which would be a loss of $24m in operating revenue. $28m total if you include the tassie sponsorship.

That drops the 2019 revenue from $76m to $48m which is down there with Melbourne, Saints, North and Dogs with $45m to $50m in revenue. For comparison Geelong has $60m annual revenue.

I mean that’s swell and all but according to your ex president...




Is he wrong?

You want to drop all the pokies and non football related revenue for Hawthorn but no other club?

So take the naming rights sponsorship, the major sponsorship on the jumper, the capacity to generate 30 per cent more from 60,000 out Vic members (out of 77,000 in a bottom 4 season) and remove all non football related revenue and Hawthorn still falls above the median for Victorian clubs - without taking a special distribution from the AFL.

No wonder the NDIS went to Geelong.

Fun Fact of the Day - Geelong take a significantly larger special distribution from the AFL than Hawthorn. Why is this?

Evidently Hawthorn’s NTA is also $40m more than Geelong...

 

[LordLucifer]

Wow 100s of 2nd tier players rebranded as AFL footballers - why not just follow 2nd tier footy?

This theory about the talent pool is a complete myth !!

 

[Kwality]

Thanks for pointing out what actual year it happened. So the news of it got lost in all the other stuff going on that year.

Yes, all SANFL clubs have been decimated since the AFL took over all of football.
VFA, SANFL and WAFL clubs that survived in name have their support decimated.
It is why I thought, if could go back in time machine and right a wrong the AFL should have come to an agreement that AFL footy clubs would only play their round up to Saturday night and Sunday would be clear ground for other leagues to be on the footy fan radar all Sunday. When VFA was only footy on Sunday here as a kid it had a good following because the premier league round was done on Saturday but once the big league invaded Sunday it slowly killed the following VFA had and is no longer. If VFA, SANFL and WAFL had Sunday all to themselves we could have had the best of both worlds as footy fans. Instead , the AFL took over the whole weekend of footy and left no real room for what was left to have any decent support. Biggest mistakes footy has ever done to the footy landscape.

Its not as simple as having Sunday free of the national comp. 2nd tier comp is not supported by bums on seats, ratings or money & its nationally.
The top tier is what people follow, see the Olympics. AFL is that here.

 

[Kwality]

Well their existing deal with Tassie would show some commitment no? Unless they're only in it for the cash which is $4m per year.

Hawthorn also has income derived from their pubs and gaming entities. $12m from pokies, $8m from the bistro and $4m from accommodation. As most clubs have done, I'm assuming at some point Hawthorn would be exiting this business which would be a loss of $24m in operating revenue. $28m total if you include the tassie sponsorship.

That drops the 2019 revenue from $76m to $48m which is down there with Melbourne, Saints, North and Dogs with $45m to $50m in revenue. For comparison Geelong has $60m annual revenue.

Then there is the cost to earn that revenue IF the comparison has any value.