Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2024 news

[Strapping Young Lad]

If anyone wants to have a listen about what the data is saying in regards to whether we have actually gotten worse this year have a listen to this from the 9:15 mark.

I know a few people have already touched on it, but the data is also showing that our results this year have been slightly better despite actually putting out a younger team and dealing with some injuries.




And here.

 

[toomanysquibs]

But the fact remains the Dees averaged 120 odd points across the final series.

The Hawks in 2021 averaged what, less than 80?

Thats a huge difference.

If we can't score 100 points or more on a regular basis we are still so far off the pace.

The side needs a rebalance between defense and attack. We need to be aiming for 100+ points a game.

Definitely not saying your'e wrong in achieving that 100 plus points.

But you could argue that If we had the same level of talent, and kept our defensive structures in place, we'd likely score that heavily too.

We were always a defense driven team under Clarkson. Difference being that when you have the cream in the side to squeeze the life out of an opposition, you also end up with plenty of attacking opportunities.

The two (scoring and playing defensively) aren't mutually exclusive. Plenty of defensive teams can pile it on when they really get on top of a side.

Unless you're the swans during their early 2000s flag era. Them and West Coast seemed happy to keep the score low.

It meant you were always in the game against them, assuming you could get a run on.

 

[toomanysquibs]

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Looks like we're going to be shedding some of our top liners to bring in picks, plus some of the periphery as well.

I'm excited about the idea of getting a big draft hand.

Would be tough to see T. Mitchell leave us though.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Definitely not saying your'e wrong in achieving that 100 plus points.

But you could argue that If we had the same level of talent, and kept our defensive structures in place, we'd likely score that heavily too.

We were always a defense driven team under Clarkson. Difference being that when you have the cream in the side to squeeze the life out of an opposition, you also end up with plenty of attacking opportunities.

The two (scoring and playing defensively) aren't mutually exclusive. Plenty of defensive teams can pile it on when they really get on top of a side.

Unless you're the swans during their early 2000s flag era. Them and West Coast seemed happy to keep the score low.

It meant you were always in the game against them, assuming you could get a run on.

My main point is that the style of game we played for much of 2021 made scoring 100 points a near impossibility regardless of the amount of talent ( or lack off) we had in our side.

The slow, laboured build up from the back line. The kicking it long down the wing to a pack. The seemingly zero intent to move the ball at any speed at all into the forward line. We all saw it and it was awful to watch.

The later half of the year was better which may or may not have been influenced by Mitchell having more say re team style.

Like I said I am quietly confident we will see some changes next year re our game style with Sam at the helm.

 

[TheFourPillars]

But the fact remains the Dees averaged 120 odd points across the final series.

The Hawks in 2021 averaged what, less than 80?

Thats a huge difference.

If we can't score 100 points or more on a regular basis we are still so far off the pace.

The side needs a rebalance between defense and attack. We need to be aiming for 100+ points a game.

Many on here questioned whether melbourne had the offensive prowess to win it all. Having a look at that forward line you would say it wasn't something the opposition would be scared of. Melbourne I don't think averaged 100 pts in the home and away season. Yes you have to be offensive to win but Melbourne won it this year because they were more defensively sound. Just as an aside do you think Richmond would have allowed Melbourne to score as freely when they were good?

 

[hawkman]

Many on here questioned whether melbourne had the offensive prowess to win it all. Having a look at that forward line you would say it was something the opposition would be scared of. Melbourne I don't think averaged 100 pts in the home and away season. Yes you have to be offensive to win but Melbourne won it this year because they were more defensively sound. Just as an aside do you think Richmond would have allowed Melbourne to score as freely when they were good?

Melbourne only averaged 85 during the H&A. We were at 83 for the last 6 weeks.

 

[toomanysquibs]

My main point is that the style of game we played for much of 2021 made scoring 100 points a near impossibility regardless of the amount of talent ( or lack off) we had in our side.

The slow, laboured build up from the back line. The kicking it long down the wing to a pack. The seemingly zero intent to move the ball at any speed at all into the forward line. We all saw it and it was awful to watch.

The later half of the year was better which may or may not have been influenced by Mitchell having more say re team style.

Like I said I am quietly confident we will see some changes next year re our game style with Sam at the helm.

I hear you, when the confidence tank burst, or our midfield gassed out, it was tough stuff to watch.

I think this is as much about the personnel as the plan though. It's so much more a team game now, and when you're down a few cogs in the machine both attack and defense won't work.

That speed of movement is a symptom of lack of belief, talent or energy (probably all 3). It's natural for players to give up taking risks, running to space etc. when they drop their heads.

Terrible to watch. But also symptomatic of deeper problems than the defensive style. I'd argue it's likely a game style that didn't suit the players on the park, as much as it was a failed strategy.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I hear you, when the confidence tank burst, or our midfield gassed out, it was tough stuff to watch.

I think this is as much about the personnel as the plan though. It's so much more a team game now, and when you're down a few cogs in the machine both attack and defense won't work.

That speed of movement is a symptom of lack of belief, talent or energy (probably all 3). It's natural for players to give up taking risks, running to space etc. when they drop their heads.

Terrible to watch. But also symptomatic of deeper problems than the defensive style. I'd argue it's likely a game style that didn't suit the players on the park, as much as it was a failed strategy.

For what it's worth, my observation during the season was that either the players couldn't do basic footy or the game plan was inappropriate to the competition. I suspected the decision making was overly complex because there was hesitancy all over the field, from new and experienced players. Further, basic skill errors were rife leading me to think that the rushed handball was the last choice, not the first. Additionally, it seemed that almost every time a turnover was made because of indecision that the team was badly out of shape and unable to defend. Lastly, while the argument that our players were underskilled had some substance, they weren't complete hacks. Mitchell, JOM and Worps in the midfield were not the three worst players in the league - infact, their pedigree (Brownlow, Rising Star, second youngest PCM) spoke to the opposite. And yet midfield play was a shambles.

I supported kicking it long and blind up the line because at least it limited the damage against us if the ball came out the other way. Any time we tried some play up the middle it backfired spectacularly.

It seems, almost unbelievably, that simply putting Nash in the middle as a bull to make the opposition play fair against a big, athletic body created enough space for TOM, JOM, Worps and support to play their high possession game effectively. The thing I most anticipate about next year is find out if, like Dorothy, it was all a dream those last few weeks.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Viva la revolution

 

[TheFourPillars]

Interesting reading that and how he talks about how teams go about it. If they have a strong midfield they throw an extra man in there. If their forward line is powerful they try and stay man on man. If the backline is strong then throw an extra there. The latter seemed to be what clarko was implementing.

He also mentioned how today's game is highly defensive which I have maintained all along. If he can come up with a plan to overcome what has inherently become a defensive game across the competition then kudos to him and I look forward to it. It will be an interesting pre season

 

[Brant]

I relent mate i was one of them. I was wrong. I must admit that all i saw was that mitchell kept the same numbers at stoppages. Hawthorn preferred the extra behind ths ball. There was more to it. However i still argue that the game plan of attack without being able to defend will fail at AFL level. It is the reason we need those defensive mechanisms as Mitchell has said. We have had real issues transitioning the ball. It is the number one thing we need to fix

For fun TheFourPillars - not holding you to it - but are you confident we'll make progress in 2022 or do you feel we'll see more of the same?

I'll go first: I think we'll see a big improvement & will probs play finals.

 

[TheFourPillars]

For fun TheFourPillars - not holding you to it - but are you confident we'll make progress in 2022 or do you feel we'll see more of the same?

I'll go first: I think we'll see a big improvement & will probs play finals.

All depends on our injury list mate. We do not have depth. It also depends on how much things change in the game plan. If there are only subtle changes then i would be dissapointed if we didnt do better than this year. This is given how much development we had within the group. I will come back to you on this in feb

 

[Pessimistic]

A caller on radio said Clarko had a clear out of older players (except Crawford) when he arrived. Kept Mitchell hodge brown etc.

he also kept older

But the fact remains the Dees averaged 120 odd points across the final series.

The Hawks in 2021 averaged what, less than 80?

Thats a huge difference.

If we can't score 100 points or more on a regular basis we are still so far off the pace.

The side needs a rebalance between defense and attack. We need to be aiming for 100+ points a game.

Squiggle suggests all teams are more defensive today

Melbourne ended up 65-80 only Brisbane cracked 60-60 in their last final

 

[Brishawk]

A caller on radio said Clarko had a clear out of older players (except Crawford) when he arrived. Kept Mitchell hodge brown etc.

he also kept older


Squiggle suggests all teams are more defensive today

Melbourne ended up 65-80 only Brisbane cracked 60-60 in their last final

7 out of last ten premiers were much more defensive than offensive. The three exceptions were all hawks. They fake changed for the worse. Hoping it can fix itself. Clearly rules haven’t done much.

 

[FactsNotBS]

I relent mate i was one of them. I was wrong. I must admit that all i saw was that mitchell kept the same numbers at stoppages. Hawthorn preferred the extra behind ths ball. There was more to it. However i still argue that the game plan of attack without being able to defend will fail at AFL level. It is the reason we need those defensive mechanisms as Mitchell has said. We have had real issues transitioning the ball. It is the number one thing we need to fix

Agree and we lack polish in the middle in my view. Hitting targets inside 50 and clever use of the footy around the middle is lacking. Its a reason Cousins got delisted I feel. Worps/Mitch and JOM all good players of course but tend to bomb the footy and don’t lower the eyes enough when we are playing poorly.

Day and Scrim are the real talents who can rectify this as their bodies develop further.

We have 2 defenders who stream the ball out very well but are unreliable kicks/users which is to your point as well.

I am excited to see what Sam can do to fix these issues as I have faith in the list to improve and I think Sam is well equipped to coach it.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Pessimistic]

7 out of last ten premiers were much more defensive than offensive. The three exceptions were all hawks. They fake changed for the worse. Hoping it can fix itself. Clearly rules haven’t done much.

agree so much it’s not true. Part of the reason is they don’t have an effing clue what they want to achieve (apart from executive bonuses)

 

[flinchfree]

7 out of last ten premiers were much more defensive than offensive. The three exceptions were all hawks. They fake changed for the worse. Hoping it can fix itself. Clearly rules haven’t done much.

And there in barely a handful of sentences you've hit upon my whiny lament in recent times on this board.
I've only ever seen potent, attacking, high flying, exciting, high scoring, daring, courageous and memorable Hawthorn success in my lifetime. And that's getting on 53 years as of the last day in September. That's right, my birthday has been thereabouts Grand Final day my whole life, and can you imagine what that has meant since I started following in 75'?
It's been.....ridiculous. Joy and pride and amazement at what my footy Club has done.

Save for 2008, which may have been Clarko's individually most brilliant moment in coaching producing a masterpiece of defensive planning to win a Cup, I've known nothing but players and playing style that even our most hated oppo supporters grudgingly accepted was brilliant. They knew the names of all our players because we were always on the highlights. From Knights to an 18 year old curly red Derm to the machine that was Dunstall, Crawf Sam and Lewie and the nova that was a headbandaged Hodge, we had stars and played star football.
I've been missing that direction, that image, that style, that belief that we can play the game in it's most glorious fashion and win that way.
It's never meant Defense wasn't hallowed at Hawthorn. Our defenders, their ability, their courage, it's written in to our lore for what they do to help the team win the biggest games. They are no less at Hawthorn than any other position group. They make the hairs on your arms stand up for their acts of game changing desperation and ability.
I've felt, personally, that as Clarko surveyed his teams in recent years, he's seen less of what we can do, and more of what we can stop others doing.
it's just my read. But it breaks my heart because I feel it sells short what players CAN be, and all of what they can be.
Even acknowledging the lesser overall talent on our current list, I haven't felt like our coaches have understood how to make more of what T-Mitch has achieved. He's Terry Wallace plus 10 possies a game but with a surrounding game plan that doesn't know how to create magic from his splitting rocks labour.
Same with JOM. Even allowing for his injuries, the man can absolutely star - instead he simply burns.

And it's probably me, all this anguish and desire for change that can bring back what I believe I've been truly blessed to see.
But I don't care. I've seen it before, so I know it's true. That 80's team would have crushed nearly any team since, and not simply because of Superman Langers, or the aerial monster that was Mew.
They dared to win, to kick more goals than the best offensive side I've ever seen in the contemporaneous Cats. Because unlike them pretenders, we played both ways. We gut ran both ways. We didn't cheat the game or ourselves and simply run forward of the ball an hope for the best. We gave more, and were rewarded for it.
When we had great players on defense we didn't need to play extras behind the ball, there was an onus that to play for Hawthorn was to not be beaten by your man. When it happened, we girded and went again believing in eachother to win the next contest, and to take the advantage to put the sword to our opponent.

We are Hawthorn, and unlike some postings on here recently - that actually does mean something. There is no other explanation for our rise and rise again in a controlled competition, for our will to win the biggest games when everyone else does too.
Put our players in real position to win, and you will get EVERYTHING from our players because that's what our history has demanded.
Lets go do it, I want my kids to know some of what that greatness looks like.

 

[theiaofseed]

Social media boys having fun

 

[SuperSic]

I have supreme confidence that Sam Mitchell will be a good AFL coach. He can be credited with having at least some part in all some of the most postive things that happened at Hawthorn last year. CJ recently credited Mitchell for a conversation that sparked his rapid rise this season, he played a huge part in the recruitment and development of Newcombe and Bramble, was important in Reeves' development and he was almost single handedly responsible for Nash the midfielder. I think this proven ability to find and foster talent is a fantastic endorsement for his credentials as a coach, and that is before you see how much the Box Hill players loved to play for him. I'm excited for the new era!

 

[Jables]

I have supreme confidence that Sam Mitchell will be a good AFL coach. He can be credited with having at least some part in all some of the most postive things that happened at Hawthorn last year. CJ recently credited Mitchell for a conversation that sparked his rapid rise this season, he played a huge part in the recruitment and development of Newcombe and Bramble, was important in Reeves' development and he was almost single handedly responsible for Nash the midfielder. I think this proven ability to find and foster talent is a fantastic endorsement for his credentials as a coach, and that is before you see how much the Box Hill players loved to play for him. I'm excited for the new era!

I'm positive he won't be a bad coach (it's more his vision for the team that's important, coaching ability doesn't really matter short term tbh, Brendan Bolton had a much bigger wrap for the same reasons as Sam), but I do think people were a bit too eager to attribute everything good that happened to Sam Mitchell.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[MrPremiership]

I'm very excited about the club and its future

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Back into it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm very excited about the club and its future

Yeah, I thought that if we traded a couple out, we'd take a step back to go forward, but I think we just take a step forward now.

 

[perrdan86]

Back into it.

Geez that place looks like a rabble. I can see the doom and gloom on their faces...