Covid-19 Welcome to Freedom

[Ben The Donkey]

Wow, what a rant.

I did not mention your assumed vaccination status. I simply assumed your vaccination status, based on your overreaction to an innocuous comment,

So... you did mention it. And then called me a liar when I advised you otherwise. It's all up there in print. You'd want to stop backpedalling, there's a brick wall behind you.

and your offensive reference to the yellow star - which looks to me like a standard talking point among the lunatic unvaxxed fringe. I find the easy misuse of nazi symbology to be incredibly ignorant and disrespectful. I think people expose their true character when they do that.

The reference to the yellow star was that it was a symbol designed to identify those of a particular ideology, and give licence to the general population to vilify and oppress. Much the same way the unvaxxed are identified by a lack of papers and subject to abuse and social ostracism - which you yourself have engaged in - at this moment.
If the mention of an old symbol used before you were born causes you to intellectually shut down, I'm afraid I have no remedy for that. That's your problem. Personally, I'd rather confront and learn from historical examples rather than curl into a offended little ball, cry, and start hurling insults around at the mere mention of it.

The divisiveness is certainly being encouraged by the antivax crowd. Antivax campaigners have threatened to kill medical professionals, simply because they give sound medical advice.

Appears to me to be a matter of perception. There are aggressive individuals on both sides of the debate. Again, you have used aggressive and insulting language yourself. But that's ok, I suppose, because you're the moral majority and in the right.

There are no parallels between how unvaxxed are being treated and how the Jews were treated in pre war Germany.

There are, by the general population at least and in initial government action toward a group seen as a threat to society. But I mentioned it as an identifier, symbolism, separating one set of the population from another and setting them up for ridicule and abuse, and as an example of how populations can be blinded to certain actions and the potential consequences of those actions when they are convinced they are doing the right thing for society... or out of fear for their own safety. Interesting how you raised the issue of selfishness when that term can be applied to the action of both sides, dependant upon perspective.

You claim that this is a sign of a totalitarian state. No. It’s a sign that there are a small number of people who are prepared to act selfishly and fu** the rest of the population. As a result, responsible leaders have to act, to protect the population, including those who are most in danger.

Not so much a sign of a totalitarian state, but a warning signal for an increasingly authoritarian government.
The bureaucratic egos in play, chest beating, and petty misuses of power are indicative. When general public support for excluding perceived undesirable elements from society becomes more important than the tactics used to do so, I begin to worry.
Chief is familiar with the tactic, he'll tell you. But he'll just be joking, of course.

 

[Chief]

If the mention of an old symbol used before you were born

It is used by the anti-mandate fringe to elicit emotions. To get people to stop reasoning. To cover over their lack of facts.

It's a dumb metaphor.

 

[Clems Knee]

So... you did mention it. And then called me a liar when I advised you otherwise. It's all up there in print. You'd want to stop backpedalling, there's a brick wall behind you.

The reference to the yellow star was that it was a symbol designed to identify those of a particular ideology, and give licence to the general population to vilify and oppress. Much the same way the unvaxxed are identified by a lack of papers and subject to abuse and social ostracism - which you yourself have engaged in - at this moment.
If the mention of an old symbol used before you were born causes you to intellectually shut down, I'm afraid I have no remedy for that. That's your problem. Personally, I'd rather confront and learn from historical examples rather than curl into a offended little ball, cry, and start hurling insults around at the mere mention of it.


Appears to me to be a matter of perception. There are aggressive individuals on both sides of the debate. Again, you have used aggressive and insulting language yourself. But that's ok, I suppose, because you're the moral majority and in the right.

There are, by the general population at least and in initial government action toward a group seen as a threat to society. But I mentioned it as an identifier, symbolism, separating one set of the population from another and setting them up for ridicule and abuse, and as an example of how populations can be blinded to certain actions and the potential consequences of those actions when they are convinced they are doing the right thing for society... or out of fear for their own safety. Interesting how you raised the issue of selfishness when that term can be applied to the action of both sides, dependant upon perspective.

Not so much a sign of a totalitarian state, but a warning signal for an increasingly authoritarian government.
The bureaucratic egos in play, chest beating, and petty misuses of power are indicative. When general public support for excluding perceived undesirable elements from society becomes more important than the tactics used to do so, I begin to worry.
Chief is familiar with the tactic, he'll tell you. But he'll just be joking, of course.

I still think you are a liar. I also think you are scum that belittles the terrible treatment that the Nazis dealt towards the Jewish people. Apparently you think that because the holocaust happened before I was born, I shouldn’t be offended by your disgusting trivilisation of their treatment. You’ve increased the offence by doubling down. Funny how the extreme right love to use Nazi symbols.
You have suggested that makes me intellectually shut down. No it makes me aware that you are not worth the steam of my piss. Ignored.

 

[Gavin Excell]

The link I provided confirms what you said, with the trends I mentioned. But, accepting those figures, there is still room for discussion on what is the appropriate government response.

NSW has a much less restrictive set of rules around Covid-19 than Victoria. NSW has a selective group of jobs where vaccines are mandated - care workers and airport staff. It reflects the risk to those who are vulnerable plus the quarantine management aspect. This is in line with other jurisdictions such as France, England, Wales and Greece. Whereas in Victoria the mandate requires you to be vaccinated to be able to work in any job. It's not clear what is the rationale for such a rule. And it's an extremist outlier in world terms.

Most premises in NSW are open to everyone, regardless of whether they are vaccinated or not. Victoria insists on locking some of its citizens out of bars, restaurants, gyms and sporting events.

Early December I heard Andrews suggesting the vaccine economy would be lifted early 2022

Not sure if any commitment was given and they may be spooked now by the new variant.

 

[faible]

Source?

Every country.

DYOR.

If you have something that shows vaccines don't work to prevent severe illness and death, in contradiction to every major health authority, by all means.

 

[faible]

Many of those countries have significantly higher herd immunity than us (obtained at a huge cost in lives)

And yet we have a very low rate of severe illness and death in a highly vaccinated population....

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Then why did you mention my assumed vaccination status, if not to insult and belittle? Why are you having a laugh with Chief about punching people who don't see things the way you do? And now you're throwing around accusations of me being a liar as well. My character? snort.

One segment of the population, a minority, is being vilified for holding different beliefs than others. That segment of the population is currently being denied the same social freedoms as the mainstream. The gulf between wealthy and not-so-wealthy has widened considerably during the pandemic, and a lot of people are gaining power and money out of it... using the politics of fear, you and your ilk, to do it (and to police it). We're being asked for documentation in order to walk into a pub. We can't hold down a job without first proving we've been stuck with needles. We're turning on those who dissent.
Recant. Recant, and you will be forgiven, and may take your place in paradise.

The virus itself has become almost a background issue, in the face of wider social and economic implications and out of an amplified, state-endorsed atmosphere of fear.
The parallels are real. This is a part of the reason totalitarian states arise to begin with, and yet there are many who don't understand how it can happen, how it was that people were so accepting of increased state control over their lives... often at the expense of others. It can happen quickly, or it can happen slowly.

That bovine indifference I mentioned was a reference to your apparent disregard that a significant part of Australia's social values, cohesion and economic prosperity, are being eroded in the face of a threat... out of fear for your own hide.
I do think the anti-vaxxers have a place in society. Not just in these circumstances, but in a more general, philosophical, sense. The dissenters, right or wrong, remind us all that there are other considerations, other threats we need to guard against.
It's not a coincidence that those who feel the urge to control society under the guise of altruism end up doing the most damage to it.
Sssh. Lie still. It's for your own good.

I wonder where the greater danger really lies.
That's a genuine concern on my part. Mostly an internal discussion with myself on where the right balance can be struck between public (personal) safety, and the erosion of ideology and values.

Why do those who refuse vaccination also seem to avoid wearing face masks and scanning in for tracing? ( especially back when tracing worked ).
While some of them are members of older anti-vax groups many seem to be just anti-covid vax.

They are in fact against doing anything that may impede the spread of the virus.
Dirty virus spreaders.

They demand the right to carry the virus. They demand the right to spit their virus ridden phlem into the air near people.
They refuse to tell you who they have been passing their phlem to.

Jews didn't have the choice.

 

[Power Raid]

So... you did mention it. And then called me a liar when I advised you otherwise. It's all up there in print. You'd want to stop backpedalling, there's a brick wall behind you.

The reference to the yellow star was that it was a symbol designed to identify those of a particular ideology, and give licence to the general population to vilify and oppress. Much the same way the unvaxxed are identified by a lack of papers and subject to abuse and social ostracism - which you yourself have engaged in - at this moment.
If the mention of an old symbol used before you were born causes you to intellectually shut down, I'm afraid I have no remedy for that. That's your problem. Personally, I'd rather confront and learn from historical examples rather than curl into a offended little ball, cry, and start hurling insults around at the mere mention of it.


Appears to me to be a matter of perception. There are aggressive individuals on both sides of the debate. Again, you have used aggressive and insulting language yourself. But that's ok, I suppose, because you're the moral majority and in the right.

There are, by the general population at least and in initial government action toward a group seen as a threat to society. But I mentioned it as an identifier, symbolism, separating one set of the population from another and setting them up for ridicule and abuse, and as an example of how populations can be blinded to certain actions and the potential consequences of those actions when they are convinced they are doing the right thing for society... or out of fear for their own safety. Interesting how you raised the issue of selfishness when that term can be applied to the action of both sides, dependant upon perspective.

Not so much a sign of a totalitarian state, but a warning signal for an increasingly authoritarian government.
The bureaucratic egos in play, chest beating, and petty misuses of power are indicative. When general public support for excluding perceived undesirable elements from society becomes more important than the tactics used to do so, I begin to worry.
Chief is familiar with the tactic, he'll tell you. But he'll just be joking, of course.

but but my discrimination is for public good

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be sick

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be a burden



unfortunately many can't see discrimination and are so horrified when called out, they refuse to see it or justify it any which way. If we read the UN declaration of Human rights, to which Australia is a signatory regarding forced medical treatments. Do we really believe coercion, discrimination and vilification of perfectly healthy people based on their vax status is in the spirit?

I get the frustration regarding the "unvaxxed" but at the end of the day, I don't believe we can finger point the unvaxxed until the authorities who know best give the vaccines "FULL AND UNCONDITIONAL APPROVAL FOR HUMAN USE". Even then we must abide by the spirit of the UN declaration or repeal our signatory and throw out our constitution.

Until then we will just see how easily those that discriminate flow from target to target be it hating Italians, Catholics, Aborigines, Vietnamese, Muslims, the unvaxxed etc etc as per our great Australian tradition attests.

 

[faible]

I don't believe we can finger point the unvaxxed until the authorities who know best give the vaccines "FULL AND UNCONDITIONAL APPROVAL FOR HUMAN USE".

Snore.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

but but my discrimination is for public good

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be sick

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be a burden



unfortunately many can't see discrimination and are so horrified when called out, they refuse to see it or justify it any which way. If we read the UN declaration of Human rights, to which Australia is a signatory regarding forced medical treatments. Do we really believe coercion, discrimination and vilification of perfectly healthy people based on their vax status is in the spirit?

I get the frustration regarding the "unvaxxed" but at the end of the day, I don't believe we can finger point the unvaxxed until the authorities who know best give the vaccines "FULL AND UNCONDITIONAL APPROVAL FOR HUMAN USE". Even then we must abide by the spirit of the UN declaration or repeal our signatory and throw out our constitution.

Until then we will just see how easily those that discriminate flow from target to target be it hating Italians, Catholics, Aborigines, Vietnamese, Muslims, the unvaxxed etc etc as per our great Australian tradition attests.

HOW BLOODY APPROVED DO YOU WANT IT!!!!!

Is it true? Were COVID-19 vaccines rushed through approvals or given emergency use authorisations in Australia?

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) provisionally approved these vaccines after a complete assessment of all the available data. The TGA does not have an "Emergency Use Authorisation" pathway for COVID-19 vaccines. Find out more below.

www.health.gov.au

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) provisionally approved these vaccines after a complete assessment of all the available data. This is the same process as any vaccine approved in this country. The TGA will only register and approve a COVID-19 vaccine if it is safe and effective.

No part of the process has been rushed, and there was no emergency authorisation granted. The TGA does not have an "Emergency Use Authorisation" pathway for COVID-19 vaccines.

Some countries are using versions of Emergency Use Authorisations (such as the UK, US and Canada) to urgently make vaccines available. This is because of the large number of COVID-19 cases and risk in those countries.

The urgency of the global pandemic means that researchers and developers are prioritising the progress of COVID-19 vaccines. This has allowed countries to deliver safe and effective vaccines faster than has been done in the past.

The TGA has engaged early with pharmaceutical companies about their vaccines and is accepting rolling data. This means that the TGA can assess clinical trial data as it becomes available, rather than at the end of the three clinical trial phases. This speeds up the review process.

 

[Power Raid]

HOW BLOODY APPROVED DO YOU WANT IT!!!!!

Is it true? Were COVID-19 vaccines rushed through approvals or given emergency use authorisations in Australia?

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) provisionally approved these vaccines after a complete assessment of all the available data. The TGA does not have an "Emergency Use Authorisation" pathway for COVID-19 vaccines. Find out more below.

www.health.gov.au

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) provisionally approved these vaccines after a complete assessment of all the available data. This is the same process as any vaccine approved in this country. The TGA will only register and approve a COVID-19 vaccine if it is safe and effective.

No part of the process has been rushed, and there was no emergency authorisation granted. The TGA does not have an "Emergency Use Authorisation" pathway for COVID-19 vaccines.

Some countries are using versions of Emergency Use Authorisations (such as the UK, US and Canada) to urgently make vaccines available. This is because of the large number of COVID-19 cases and risk in those countries.

The urgency of the global pandemic means that researchers and developers are prioritising the progress of COVID-19 vaccines. This has allowed countries to deliver safe and effective vaccines faster than has been done in the past.

The TGA has engaged early with pharmaceutical companies about their vaccines and is accepting rolling data. This means that the TGA can assess clinical trial data as it becomes available, rather than at the end of the three clinical trial phases. This speeds up the review process.

It is not what I want.

All I am suggesting if the TGA and experts provide a provisional status, then I can see how others can raise concerns.

 

[Power Raid]

Why do those who refuse vaccination also seem to avoid wearing face masks and scanning in for tracing? ( especially back when tracing worked ).
While some of them are members of older anti-vax groups many seem to be just anti-covid vax.

They are in fact against doing anything that may impede the spread of the virus.
Dirty virus spreaders.

They demand the right to carry the virus. They demand the right to spit their virus ridden phlem into the air near people.
They refuse to tell you who they have been passing their phlem to.

Jews didn't have the choice.

Your position doesn't hold water given the vax can spread it, carry the virus and spit phlem into the air near people and refuse to tell you where they have been passing phlem. I also note Queensland is moving away from QR codes as such the "tell you" is irrelevant to the government and health system.

oh and of course Jews had a choice.......they didn't have to be Jew like for centuries, engage in banking, charge interest, demand repayment and other unsavoury customs

Well that's how it would have been justified for centuries by so many

 

[Gavin Excell]

It is not what I want.

All I am suggesting if the TGA and experts provide a provisional status, then I can see how others can raise concerns.

What does that actually mean?

 

[bzparkes]

oh and of course Jews had a choice.......they didn't have to be Jew like for centuries, engage in banking, charge interest, demand repayment and other unsavoury customs

Well that's how it would have been justified for centuries by so many

What??

I'm sure(hope) you're being sarcastic here however anti-vax people can choose to get the jab, Jews couldn't choose not to be Jewish ffs.

I guess in this day and age they could've 'identified' as Nazi though...

 

[Pessimistic]

Your position doesn't hold water given the vax can spread it, carry the virus and spit phlem into the air near people and refuse to tell you where they have been passing phlem. I also note Queensland is moving away from QR codes as such the "tell you" is irrelevant to the government and health system.

oh and of course Jews had a choice.......they didn't have to be Jew like for centuries, engage in banking, charge interest, demand repayment and other unsavoury customs

Well that's how it would have been justified for centuries by so many

I don’t think we can honestly say Jews in Europe had a choice. Genealogy is a jolly pastime now, but was a tool of death back in the day
. Plus if you renounce your religion, the pitiful support from the rest of your kind is gone too.

This is not to deny Australian governments aren’t guilty of overreach. They justify it with ‘saving lives’ but the recent tennis debacle seeemd more about saving face.
So if we are ‘living with covid’ is any non vaccinated non Australian the equivalent of a terrorist going forward? Even when there’s an admission the personal risk provided by the individual is very very low?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It is not what I want.

All I am suggesting if the TGA and experts provide a provisional status, then I can see how others can raise concerns.

This is the same process as any vaccine approved in this country. The TGA will only register and approve a COVID-19 vaccine if it is safe and effective.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Your position doesn't hold water given the vax can spread it, carry the virus and spit phlem into the air near people and refuse to tell you where they have been passing phlem. I also note Queensland is moving away from QR codes as such the "tell you" is irrelevant to the government and health system.

oh and of course Jews had a choice.......they didn't have to be Jew like for centuries, engage in banking, charge interest, demand repayment and other unsavoury customs

Well that's how it would have been justified for centuries by so many

Not one person ever was "Jew Like for Centuries ".

 

[Chief]

and of course Jews had a choice

This is such a stupid metaphor. Just one of the dumbest.

So many East Euro countries are battling this widespread stupidity on a daily basis and people are dying as a result.

 

[Crankyhawk]

but but my discrimination is for public good

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be sick

and and they deserve it as they "are" I mean could be a burden



unfortunately many can't see discrimination and are so horrified when called out, they refuse to see it or justify it any which way. If we read the UN declaration of Human rights, to which Australia is a signatory regarding forced medical treatments. Do we really believe coercion, discrimination and vilification of perfectly healthy people based on their vax status is in the spirit?

I get the frustration regarding the "unvaxxed" but at the end of the day, I don't believe we can finger point the unvaxxed until the authorities who know best give the vaccines "FULL AND UNCONDITIONAL APPROVAL FOR HUMAN USE". Even then we must abide by the spirit of the UN declaration or repeal our signatory and throw out our constitution.

Until then we will just see how easily those that discriminate flow from target to target be it hating Italians, Catholics, Aborigines, Vietnamese, Muslims, the unvaxxed etc etc as per our great Australian tradition attests.

Except they can take an action to improve their situation ie get vaccinated.
Not like religious could renounce their religion (if you want to use nazi example they would kill non practicing children of Jews)
Or racial/ sex discrimination can’t change race or sex.
Get vaccinated.
Calling it discrimination is like saying we discriminate against drunk drivers. No it’s just the ****ing law against someone choosing an action we have decided is against public good.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah, I think he said 'in a few weeks' or some such. When previously he said 'at least until the Grand Prix', and other times 'all of 2022'. Surely the health advice in Vic and NSW would be very similar. But we have different mandate policies.

Rather than the mandates being dropped any time soon I think it's more likely that triple vaxxed will become the requirement. Then how long before a 4th dose is mandated?

At each stage there needs to be a re-evaluation of the risk from the disease against the impositions on a free society.

We would need evidence that 4th vax (Israel only) makes any difference.
Triple vaxxed if eligible could become part (it is for some industries)

 

[sr36]

We would need evidence that 4th vax (Israel only) makes any difference.
Triple vaxxed if eligible could become part (it is for some industries)

We can be pretty confident that a 4th dose will give a short term boost in antibodies that will reduce infections. I don't think it will be hugely recommended unless there is a later big wave or Omicron is still the major variant and an Omicron specific booster is stopping transmission.

 

[Taylor]

From the same article I provided. It cites the U.K. Health Security Agency finding that boosters (3rd) are only 40% to 50% effective against infection 10 weeks after receiving the shot. The booster rollout in Australia started in early December so by early February the boosters will be becoming ineffective. With 3rd and 4th vax we are uncharted territory in terms of evidence based trials demonstrating efficacy and safety.

Bringing it back to vaccine mandates, at what point do you restore freedoms to non-vaccinated based on increasingly ineffective vaccines?

You'll get plenty of data regarding efficacy by requiring people to have more rounds of boosters.

 

[Crankyhawk]

From the same article I provided. It cites the U.K. Health Security Agency finding that boosters (3rd) are only 40% to 50% effective against infection 10 weeks after receiving the shot. The booster rollout in Australia started in early December so by early February the boosters will be becoming ineffective. With 3rd and 4th vax we are uncharted territory in terms of evidence based trials demonstrating efficacy and safety.

Bringing it back to vaccine mandates, at what point do you restore freedoms to non-vaccinated based on increasingly ineffective vaccines?

I don’t restore freedom. Not my job to do it.

 

[Chief]

From the same article I provided. It cites the U.K. Health Security Agency finding that boosters (3rd) are only 40% to 50% effective against infection 10 weeks after receiving the shot. The booster rollout in Australia started in early December so by early February the boosters will be becoming ineffective. With 3rd and 4th vax we are uncharted territory in terms of evidence based trials demonstrating efficacy and safety.

Bringing it back to vaccine mandates, at what point do you restore freedoms to non-vaccinated based on increasingly ineffective vaccines?

Vaccination is more effective than not being vaccinated.

New treatments, new vaccines, they will be discovered and developed.

Too bad for us that we'll likely die out due to a microbe.

 

[Power Raid]

Except they can take an action to improve their situation ie get vaccinated.
Not like religious could renounce their religion (if you want to use nazi example they would kill non practicing children of Jews)
Or racial/ sex discrimination can’t change race or sex.
Get vaccinated.
Calling it discrimination is like saying we discriminate against drunk drivers. No it’s just the ******* law against someone choosing an action we have decided is against public good.

the jews could have left europe, the jews could have stopped breeding, the jews could of.......at the end of the day, it isn't about what the victims can or should do. It is about respecting the UN declaration of human rights (which is the difference between your example of drink driving and vax) and as individuals showing restraint and not falling victim to their own fear.

The comparison to the jews is excessive given the outcome but discrimination starts small; the victims are demonised, the victims are marginalised, the perpetrators justify their prejudice and the results are never good.

In all of history we haven't locked up and isolated the perfectly healthy rather we have isolated the sick. In this case we should be offering those with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, hypertension and anyone else who wants to isolate isolation.

FTR I'd be the first to say someone who doesn't get vaxxed is selfish and irresponsible but I try not to let my beliefs lead to discrimination.