Society/Culture Calls to ban men working in Childcare

[Carn The Berries]

Well if you banned females from working in child care you wouldn't have an industry, you would without blokes so there's that. All forms of abuse are bad but the type of a sexual nature should probably be focused on first.

So some abuse is ok? We replace the blokes (who you say should be banned) with women who are much more likely to commit other forms of abuse?

As I said, this is where the "think of the children" argument is debunked.

 

[the_interloper]

So some abuse is ok? We replace the blokes (who you say should be banned) with women who are much more likely to commit other forms of abuse?

As I said, this is where the "think of the children" argument is debunked.

I mean we do grade forms of abuse do we not? Sexual abuse is generally seen as the worst and most damaging particularly to someone of that age of course.

And you don't want us to think of the children?

 

[Carn The Berries]

I mean we do grade forms of abuse do we not? Sexual abuse is generally seen as the worst and most damaging particularly to someone of that age of course.

And you don't want us to think of the children?

It's cherry picking. One one hand you're saying that a majority of abuse being perpetrated by men is a reason to ban them from childcare, while on the other hand saying that you can't apply the same rules for non-sexual abuse because it would cripple the industry.

How do you define most damaging?

"A crying two-year-old girl was picked up by the arm and leg and "slammed" onto a bench. When she cried louder, Jaroudi covered the girl's mouth to stifle her screams."

"When a three-year-old autistic boy vomited, his head was put into a garbage bin by Jaroudi and another educator"

So these are less "damaging" so don't need the same level of scrutiny?

I want the children to be thought of in a meaningful way, not using a particular set of data as a reason to ban an entire cohort from the industry because that is "for the best". Look at all types of abuse and come up with safeguards that are more than just "ban the cohort of people that do it". It's lazy and does little to provide peace of mind to parents who are putting their faith in these places to look after their kids.

 

[Grumpyshades]

So some abuse is ok? We replace the blokes (who you say should be banned) with women who are much more likely to commit other forms of abuse?

As I said, this is where the "think of the children" argument is debunked.

so the 'think of the children' rhetoric is only used to discriminate against men and magically disappears when women are disadvantaged ?

wow you might be on to something there

 

[Carn The Berries]

so the 'think of the children' rhetoric is only used to discriminate against men and magically disappears when women are disadvantaged ?

wow you might be on to something there

In this particular situation, it is being used by a small cohort of people.

I'm certainly not suggesting that #notallmen should be a thing. As a man I believe that I need to be part of the solution when it comes to things like domestic violence, but a blanket ban in this situation is completely counterproductive.

My guess is it was used in this instance by a poster who wasn't aware that there were other types of abuse being committed, by women, against children in childcare centres. Now that they are aware of it they are scrambling to continue to justify the stance by suggesting that one type of abuse is worse than another and therefore should have a different set of rules applied.

 

[dumb]

seems like one answer is to ensure no-one is in a position where they are left alone with children. initially there'd be the perception that the male childcare workers are being babysat, but this would pass given that pairs of female workers would be ensuring each individual is behaving.

 

[QuietB]

Malka Leifer Says hi - although some Israeli’s do hate children I guess so maybe that is different

 

[CakeEater]

No, because most people aren’t extreme reactionary feminists who immediately think of all men as pedos.

Like I said before I even check out the social media of this extreme feminist Louise Edmonds, the one person who got amplified by the media calling for this ban, and even on her post on her own social media a lot of her devoted followers were against it. On the social media of other feminists like Sherelle Moody, Clementine Ford, Mia Freedman etc they either haven’t called for it or the discussion about it is mixed.

No real child advocacy groups for called for a ban, and the AHRC has previous found discrimination against men in childcare is against the Sex Discrimination Act, regardless how many of these extreme feminists cry about “protecting children”.

This is a can of worms you don’t want opened. By all means call for a blanket ban discriminating against men working in childcare, but calls for discriminatory bans will follow against groups these radical feminists have sympathy towards. For instance get ready for a call for the forced removal of indigenous children from indigenous parents, like I said this is not a can of worms you want opened……

Even the union is struggling to take a position, which is interesting

 

[Gethelred]

I can't speak for early childcare, but I've been told since I became a teacher as a bloke two things to always insist upon:

• never be alone with one student. It's an entire class - more than 10 people - or you've got a colleague.
• for all situations beyond your control, keep the door open and a table between you at all times.

This is a thing specifically men tell each other, as it's come up multiple times around the women teachers and they hadn't heard of it. Two of my supervising teachers during my placements were female and never said anything; my final placement had a man supervising, and he said it pretty bluntly: if you value your career, you've got to do this.

If a man wants their career in early childhood learning, they need to be willing to adhere to this kind of self-protection. You cannot deny the statistics around child abuse, and if you care enough for these kids then whatever hoops there are you'll be happy to jump through them.

This isn't a man/woman equality thing: this is a safety thing for the children and the parents who trusted you with their care. I don't agree with the ban, but changing procedure to ensure that at no point is an adult of any gender alone with just the kids is absolutely an acceptable change.

 

[schneebly111]

I can't speak for early childcare, but I've been told since I became a teacher as a bloke two things to always insist upon:

If they get men in childcare banned then primary teachers will be next.

 

[ZEV]

If they get men in childcare banned then primary teachers will be next.

I wouldn't have thought there would be to much nappy changing with non-verbal babies in primary schools compared to child care....

Genuine question do you have children?

 

[the_interloper]

I can't speak for early childcare, but I've been told since I became a teacher as a bloke two things to always insist upn:

• never be alone with one student. It's an entire class - more than 10 people - or you've got a colleague.
• for all situations beyond your control, keep the door open and a table between you at all times.

This is a thing specifically men tell each other, as it's come up multiple times around the women teachers and they hadn't heard of it. Two of my supervising teachers during my placements were female and never said anything; my final placement had a man supervising, and he said it pretty bluntly: if you value your career, you've got to do this.

If a man wants their career in early childhood learning, they need to be willing to adhere to this kind of self-protection. You cannot deny the statistics around child abuse, and if you care enough for this kids then whatever hoops there are you'll be happy to jump through them.

This isn't a man/woman equality thing: this is a safety thing for the children and the parents who trusted you with their care. I don't agree with the ban, but changing procedure to ensure that at no point is an adult of any gender alone with just the kids is absolutely an acceptable change.

Agreed, good post. I did say earlier I agreed with no men in childcare, what you say sounds reasonable though.

I feel like this will stop a lot of blokes from here on going into childcare anyway. There's actually a few blokes working in my son's after school care, did wonder how they were feeling last week.

 

[Gethelred]

If they get men in childcare banned then primary teachers will be next.

Slippery slope.

I've also said I don't agree with a blanket ban. Such would probably fail antidiscrimination measures without additional legislation, and if you think a government that wants to be elected again is going to run with an "all men are paedophiles" bill, you're bonkers.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

I think some interesting data I came across, is the significantly higher rate that female teachers are likely to engage in sexual misconduct with high school students. Generally females are only perpetrators in the general population in cases of sexual abuse at about 5-10%. However when it comes to high school sexual misconduct that figure sky rockets to 35%.

 

[schneebly111]

I think some interesting data I came across, is the significantly higher rate that female teachers are likely to engage in sexual misconduct with high school students. Generally females are only perpetrators in the general population in cases of sexual abuse at about 5-10%. However when it comes to high school sexual misconduct that figure sky rockets to 35%.

There’s a hypocrisy the fringe “ban all men” brigade won’t talk about there

 

[Gethelred]

There’s a hypocrisy the fringe “ban all men” brigade won’t talk about there

Seriously, who gives a shit about hypocrisy? Is hypocrisy alone worth wasting yours and my time?

 

[evolved2]

I can't speak for early childcare, but I've been told since I became a teacher as a bloke two things to always insist upon:

• never be alone with one student. It's an entire class - more than 10 people - or you've got a colleague.
• for all situations beyond your control, keep the door open and a table between you at all times.

This is a thing specifically men tell each other, as it's come up multiple times around the women teachers and they hadn't heard of it. Two of my supervising teachers during my placements were female and never said anything; my final placement had a man supervising, and he said it pretty bluntly: if you value your career, you've got to do this.

If a man wants their career in early childhood learning, they need to be willing to adhere to this kind of self-protection. You cannot deny the statistics around child abuse, and if you care enough for these kids then whatever hoops there are you'll be happy to jump through them.

This isn't a man/woman equality thing: this is a safety thing for the children and the parents who trusted you with their care. I don't agree with the ban, but changing procedure to ensure that at no point is an adult of any gender alone with just the kids is absolutely an acceptable change.

I'm not sure it's possible to change procedure for protection against csa in childcare centers without encroaching on privacy in ways most parents wouldn't support, such as having cameras in toilets and change areas.

If it's a choice between that or banning male childcare workers from involvement in any aspect of changing infants or helping in toilets, I heavily favour the latter.

My experience working with drugs of addiction and other controlled substances has convinced me that almost every form of regulation and control are meaningless to someone who is sufficiently motivated to break the rules. I don't want to break the rules and steal, but I'm 100% sure I could if I wanted to.

The difference between childcare and schools is that many infants don't have a voice. A pedophile that preys on pre-verbal infants knows they are unlikely to be caught.

 

[evolved2]

What about non-sexual abuse?

Jane was sent happy photos of her son in child care. It was all fake

The child and others were left in highchairs for hours at a time, force fed, pinched, yanked, and thrown to the ground.

www.abc.net.au

There was an extended interview about this on ABC News Radio last week, the vast majority of this sort of abuse is perpetrated by female childcare staff.

Should female staff be banned from feeding children in high chairs at childcare?

Do you have stats to support that claim?

 

[Lia]

If women want to exclusively change nappies for some no name snot nosed kid for low pay, they can go hard. If mothers want that for fellow women, again go hard.

 

[schneebly111]

Do you have stats to support that claim?

This is about overall child abuse not specifically in centres, but females comprised 54% of abusers and single mothers comprised 34% of abusers despite making up just 17% of households.

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/18-1314-FinalReport.pdf#page12

 

[the_interloper]

This is about overall child abuse not specifically in centres, but females comprised 54% of abusers and single mothers comprised 34% of abusers despite making up just 17% of households.

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/18-1314-FinalReport.pdf#page12

I mean you did state this earlier " the vast majority of this sort of abuse is perpetrated by female childcare staff." thought your point was specifically around this.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm not sure it's possible to change procedure for protection against csa in childcare centers without encroaching on privacy in ways most parents wouldn't support, such as having cameras in toilets and change areas.

If it's a choice between that or banning male childcare workers from involvement in any aspect of changing infants or helping in toilets, I heavily favour the latter.

My experience working with drugs of addiction and other controlled substances has convinced me that almost every form of regulation and control are meaningless to someone who is sufficiently motivated to break the rules. I don't want to break the rules and steal, but I'm 100% sure I could if I wanted to.

The difference between childcare and schools is that many infants don't have a voice. A pedophile that preys on pre-verbal infants knows they are unlikely to be caught.

I'm sorry, but this topic is awful and I think from here I'm going to sit this one out.

 

[evolved2]

I'm sorry, but this topic is awful and I think from here I'm going to sit this one out.

While disappointed, I respect your choice.

 

[evolved2]

This is about overall child abuse not specifically in centres, but females comprised 54% of abusers and single mothers comprised 34% of abusers despite making up just 17% of households.

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/18-1314-FinalReport.pdf#page12

Your link is 12 pages. I'd appreciate you sharing the pertinent parts.

 

[faible]

I can't speak for early childcare, but I've been told since I became a teacher as a bloke two things to always insist upon:

• never be alone with one student. It's an entire class - more than 10 people - or you've got a colleague.
• for all situations beyond your control, keep the door open and a table between you at all times.

This is a thing specifically men tell each other, as it's come up multiple times around the women teachers and they hadn't heard of it. Two of my supervising teachers during my placements were female and never said anything; my final placement had a man supervising, and he said it pretty bluntly: if you value your career, you've got to do this.

If a man wants their career in early childhood learning, they need to be willing to adhere to this kind of self-protection. You cannot deny the statistics around child abuse, and if you care enough for these kids then whatever hoops there are you'll be happy to jump through them.

This isn't a man/woman equality thing: this is a safety thing for the children and the parents who trusted you with their care. I don't agree with the ban, but changing procedure to ensure that at no point is an adult of any gender alone with just the kids is absolutely an acceptable change.

If nothing else, from a self-interest point of view it's just sensible. You can't ever be accused of anything inappropriate if you simply ensure you're not in situations where it would be possible.

Leave doors open, keep appropriate distances, ask for a third party to sit-in. Whether you work with children or adults, it's generally a good practice to have in a workplace or volunteer setting.