Are violent protests in Melbourne acceptable?

[Gralin]

This validation of racism by the police is a wet dream for some

I've heard some say that the marches were throwing things at each other over the cops to begin with

ive heard others say that protestors started throwing things at cops after the cops started pepper spraying them, shooting them with rubber bullets, using stun grenades etc

I'm reasonably confident that if there was footage of the protestors starting the violence against the cops it would be the leading item in every story and we'd not have needed the show and tell from Cheeseman

Of course, at some point its clear there were violent clashes between protestors and cops, but the police are very good at justifying their violence as "defence" when they're the ones with the actual weapons

not surprised he listed flag burning in his justification but the whole point of this is to curtail protests

 

[T2B_]

Yeah I guess he should have commended the ANITFA counter protestors and thanked them for throwing rocks and glass at his officers.

So the only reason you started this thread was to push the usual "left are violent demons" rhetoric. Typical.

 

[rank and file]

Yeah I guess he should have commended the ANITFA counter protestors and thanked them for throwing rocks and glass at his officers.

The cop was lying when he said 'bottles filled with shards of glass'.
Spare me,nobody is filling up a bottle with shards of glass.
Also Lmao that the protesters are either neo nazis or antifa terrorists.
Melbourne is so cast.

 

[Gethelred]

It is the role of police, above anything else, to maintain the state's monopoly over violence. That is, quite literally, what the phrase 'maintaining the peace' refers to: the use of force to compel compliance.

The reality of any nation state is that it is maintained with violence.

Now, if you're the police and this is your duty, you're not really opposed to right wing protest. You are, if anything, operating from the same ideological paradigm on several fronts:

• respect for and the extension of government authority.
• that society is something to be protected from itself.
• that violence is acceptable to achieve your goals.

Left wing protest, however, threatens your power base directly: left wing positions advocate for less militant policing; less funding and alternative (rehabilitative) consequences for crimes; that nazism and fascism are wrong.

You have every reason for there to be tension towards left wing protest within police forces. Add to that the real public antipathy towards inconvenient protest types and violent protest - the only two forms of protest that actually ****ing work - and you've got a society eager to do away with left wing views as out of sight on one hand and dangerous on the other.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

It is the role of police, above anything else, to maintain the state's monopoly over violence. That is, quite literally, what the phrase 'maintaining the peace' refers to: the use of force to compel compliance.

The reality of any nation state is that it is maintained with violence.

Now, if you're the police and this is your duty, you're not really opposed to right wing protest. You are, if anything, operating from the same ideological paradigm on several fronts:

• respect for and the extension of government authority.
• that society is something to be protected from itself.
• that violence is acceptable to achieve your goals.

Left wing protest, however, threatens your power base directly: left wing positions advocate for less militant policing; less funding and alternative (rehabilitative) consequences for crimes; that nazism and fascism are wrong.

You have every reason for there to be tension towards left wing protest within police forces. Add to that the real public antipathy towards inconvenient protest types and violent protest - the only two forms of protest that actually ****ing work - and you've got a society eager to do away with left wing views as out of sight on one hand and dangerous on the other.

Agree to some extent.

I’m interested are you endorsing and supporting violent protest?

 

[Gethelred]

Agree to some extent.

I’m interested are you endorsing and supporting violent protest?

I'm saying that effective protest by definition needs to threaten that monopoly of violence. You do not get the state to listen without compelling it; asking the people with the guns nicely to do something they don't want to do that will actively inconvenience them isn't going to get the job done. A strike is a direct threat to society's ability to function; a protest that shuts down industry does the same thing; a protest that spills out into a riot in the right place can lead to regime change.

This is not an endorsement so much as an acknowledgement of what actually works as far as protest goes.

Hurt those with power's ability to use that power or threaten to take it from them. That's what the Labour movement actually is supposed to be: a threat by workers to take power when/if the ownership classes neglect their interests too much. Outside of that, you have no ability to get them to even acknowledge a protest's existence.

 

[Cyg1992]

It's just the very wealthy, powerful and influential trying to wedge people apart to distract from them pillaging the country dry.

Their wet dream is to have what's become of the United States, to happen here.
It's why they're backing and funding people like Hastie, Joyce, etc

Cue the Murdoch cookie meme.

 

[BomToydd]

Tensions erupt on Melbourne streets as opposing immigration rallies held across Australian capitals

Where was this after the wonderful and peaceful march for australia nazis and cookers violently attacked and terrorised camp sovereignty beating the shit out of women?
What an unhinged nazi f-wit

 

[Festerz]

What is the police’s political stance then?

'issues motivated groups on the left' were the words the head of VicPol used.

As opposed to those 'on the right' who were not 'issues motivated'? What exactly is he saying here? How does he decide which issues and which supporters are left and which are right?

It's a simplistic and idiotic statement. Driven by a partisan and divisive political narrative. Made by a public servant in charge of an armed force entrusted with the responsibility of enforcing the law impartially.

Regardless of personal political beliefs, the long history of corruption and political interference in Australian policing tells us we all need to be worried when the head of the police service feels emboldened to publicly announce that they've picked a side.

 

[Orfullrules]

'issues motivated groups on the left' were the words the head of VicPol used.

As opposed to those 'on the right' who were not 'issues motivated'? What exactly is he saying here? How does he decide which issues and which supporters are left and which are right?

It's a simplistic and idiotic statement. Driven by a partisan and divisive political narrative. Made by a public servant in charge of an armed force entrusted with the responsibility of enforcing the law impartially.

Regardless of personal political beliefs, the long history of corruption and political interference in Australian policing tells us we all need to be worried when the head of the police service feels emboldened to publicly announce that they've picked a side.

Could be time for a move then. Weekly protests, no money, busy and a right winger as top cop.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

'issues motivated groups on the left' were the words the head of VicPol used.

As opposed to those 'on the right' who were not 'issues motivated'? What exactly is he saying here? How does he decide which issues and which supporters are left and which are right?

It's a simplistic and idiotic statement. Driven by a partisan and divisive political narrative. Made by a public servant in charge of an armed force entrusted with the responsibility of enforcing the law impartially.

Regardless of personal political beliefs, the long history of corruption and political interference in Australian policing tells us we all need to be worried when the head of the police service feels emboldened to publicly announce that they've picked a side.

Sorry where did he say the police have now picked a side? He was refering to this particular protest/counter protest. Would you have posted the same if he had of said 'issue motivated groups on the right'?

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

I'm saying that effective protest by definition needs to threaten that monopoly of violence. You do not get the state to listen without compelling it; asking the people with the guns nicely to do something they don't want to do that will actively inconvenience them isn't going to get the job done. A strike is a direct threat to society's ability to function; a protest that shuts down industry does the same thing; a protest that spills out into a riot in the right place can lead to regime change.

This is not an endorsement so much as an acknowledgement of what actually works as far as protest goes.

Hurt those with power's ability to use that power or threaten to take it from them. That's what the Labour movement actually is supposed to be: a threat by workers to take power when/if the ownership classes neglect their interests too much. Outside of that, you have no ability to get them to even acknowledge a protest's existence.

I follow your logic, however see a huge difference between threatening disruption eg stop works, shut down etc and performative violence towards police. Regardless of its effectiveness it cannot be accepted.

Its a tricky position to hold then. Not endorsing/opposing protest violence, but acknowledging its necessary for the protest to work?

 

[Carn The Berries]

Sorry where did he say the police have now picked a side? He was refering to this particular protest/counter protest. Would you have posted the same if he had of said 'issue motivated groups on the right'?

He said it the moment he went off the deep end about Sunday but has said SFA about neo-nazi's beating the suitcase out of indigenous people...

Were the people marching "for Australia" not issue motivated?

 

[Sttew]

"The people that came to pick a fight with police were the issue-motivated people on the left," he said.

How the hell does he know that they were "people were on the lef"t??
He doesn't. He is just making shit up.
What a stupid f-wit.

No wonder they can't even catch Dezi Freeman, they're too busy making up shit about 'people on the left'.

How the **** do you know they weren't from the left? Why would Cheeseman have said that if it wasn't factually correct? Do you not think Police have intelligence on who's who? Do you not think the flags being waved and the chants being shouted by the protestors gave it away?

I heard one of the so called 'left' organisers interviewed on radio yesterday. When asked whether she condoned the violence her response was something to the effect she cannot be responsible for everyone in her group. She also said the real question was why Police are allowed to resort to violence but that's another issue

 

[Sttew]

'issues motivated groups on the left' were the words the head of VicPol used.

As opposed to those 'on the right' who were not 'issues motivated'? What exactly is he saying here? How does he decide which issues and which supporters are left and which are right?

It's a simplistic and idiotic statement. Driven by a partisan and divisive political narrative. Made by a public servant in charge of an armed force entrusted with the responsibility of enforcing the law impartially.

Regardless of personal political beliefs, the long history of corruption and political interference in Australian policing tells us we all need to be worried when the head of the police service feels emboldened to publicly announce that they've picked a side.

Did you hear the full briefing? Both protest groups were "issue motivated" but one side resorted to criminal violence that including lighting crackers under a horse, throwing flares, throwing fist sized rocks brought to the demonstration. The other side did not resort to violence. THAT was the point made

BTW, it wasn't the head of Victoria Police who uttered the words that you find offensive. The man who made the comments is just a senior Police officer who, in his words, has "had a gutful" of lawlessness and weekly protests disrupting Melbourne on Sundays, just like thousands of Melburnians

Do you live in Adelaide or something?

 

[JackFlash]

It's out of control in Melbourne now, total overkill and you wouldn't go to the CBD on a weekend if your life depended on it. These hateful people don't care about the affect it has had on businesses in the city who have either closed on Sunday's or barricade themselves in their stores. Melbourne is a strange place these days, it's uneasy and uncomfortable to walk around, the past 20 years has seen the rapid decline of this once great city and you don't have to look far to discover why. Jacinta has that deer in the headlights look every time crime and violent protest are ever mentioned. She won't fix it, she doesn't believe it's happening and all is well!

 

[Carn The Berries]

It's out of control in Melbourne now, total overkill and you wouldn't go to the CBD on a weekend if your life depended on it. These hateful people don't care about the affect it has had on businesses in the city who have either closed on Sunday's or barricade themselves in their stores. Melbourne is a strange place these days, it's uneasy and uncomfortable to walk around, the past 20 years has seen the rapid decline of this once great city and you don't have to look far to discover why. Jacinta has that deer in the headlights look every time crime and violent protest are ever mentioned. She won't fix it, she doesn't believe it's happening and all is well!
View attachment 2461826

What an absolute crock of shit. I was in the CBD on the weekend, with my wife, children, sister (visiting from GC) and mother. We had a lovely day shopping and enjoying some attractions in town. There was no trouble whatsoever and the city was pumping. Everyone noted how good it was to see the city busy.

These businesses that you speak of had lines out the door in some instances.

But you do you...

 

[QuietB]

It's out of control in Melbourne now, total overkill and you wouldn't go to the CBD on a weekend if your life depended on it. These hateful people don't care about the affect it has had on businesses in the city who have either closed on Sunday's or barricade themselves in their stores. Melbourne is a strange place these days, it's uneasy and uncomfortable to walk around, the past 20 years has seen the rapid decline of this once great city and you don't have to look far to discover why. Jacinta has that deer in the headlights look every time crime and violent protest are ever mentioned. She won't fix it, she doesn't believe it's happening and all is well!
View attachment 2461826

When was the last time you were in the city in Melbourne on the weekend?

From what you have written it sounds like it was before the outbreak of WWII

 

[Cyg1992]

Were the people marching "for Australia" not issue motivated?

That's different though, it's common sense and just what everyone is thinking but scared to say...

 

[MPMonkeys]

What an absolute crock of shit. I was in the CBD on the weekend, with my wife, children, sister (visiting from GC) and mother. We had a lovely day shopping and enjoying some attractions in town. There was no trouble whatsoever and the city was pumping. Everyone noted how good it was to see the city busy.

These businesses that you speak of had lines out the door in some instances.

But you do you...

Lines out the door aren't indicative of being busy. Its usually a case of being short-staffed because the owner is unable to predict with any certainty whether his/her business will be impacted by protests so errs on the side of being short staffed.

The rocks that were being thrown at police from those on the left were bluestone railway rocks. They were obviously brought to the protest. Why bring these rocks to a protest?

 

[Number37]

How the **** do you know they weren't from the left? Why would Cheeseman have said that if it wasn't factually correct? Do you not think Police have intelligence on who's who? Do you not think the flags being waved and the chants being shouted by the protestors gave it away?

I heard one of the so called 'left' organisers interviewed on radio yesterday. When asked whether she condoned the violence her response was something to the effect she cannot be responsible for everyone in her group. She also said the real question was why Police are allowed to resort to violence but that's another issue

How TF would he know if they were from 'the left'??
Who TF is 'the left'??

He was just making shit up.

 

[Sttew]

How TF would he know if they were from 'the left'??
Who TF is 'the left'??

He was just making shit up.

There were two groups of protestors. One was March for Australia who are described as far right. The counter group who resorted to violence were holding banners that said, 'Workers Unite to Fight the Right' and 'Unite to Fight the Right'. If they weren't "left motivated" what were they?

You post as though it is inconceivable that violent left wing protestors could exist.

One thing is clear - Melbourne needs a complete break from weekend protests. 2 years+ is too long. Of course under this government that will never happen because we have a God given right to protest enshrined in a Charter, the only STATE in Australia to do so.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Lines out the door aren't indicative of being busy. Its usually a case of being short-staffed because the owner is unable to predict with any certainty whether his/her business will be impacted by protests so errs on the side of being short staffed.

The rocks that were being thrown at police from those on the left were bluestone railway rocks. They were obviously brought to the protest. Why bring these rocks to a protest?

Oh ok... Here was me thinking that a line at a shop is a sign that there are plenty of people who want that particular good or service... How silly of me

 

[Carn The Berries]

There were two groups of protestors. One was March for Australia who are described as far right. The counter group who resorted to violence were holding banners that said, 'Workers Unite to Fight the Right' and 'Unite to Fight the Right'. If they weren't "left motivated" what were they?

You post as though it is inconceivable that violent left wing protestors could exist.

One thing is clear - Melbourne needs a complete break from weekend protests. 2 years+ is too long. Of course under this government that will never happen because we have a God given right to protest enshrined in a Charter, the only STATE in Australia to do so.

So you believe that the right to protest should be taken away?

 

[Gough]

The copper looks like he should be chasing James Bond through the Louisiana swamps.