Toast Esava

[Baudolino]

No love for Sav after yesterday?
I thought he was in our best- not a great feat I guess, given how down we were, but he showed a fair bit of attitude and endeavour yesterday

He did like two good things but was otherwise complete garbage. Typical Sav basically.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

No love for Sav after yesterday?
I thought he was in our best- not a great feat I guess, given how down we were, but he showed a fair bit of attitude and endeavour yesterday

For me, attitude and endeavor are no longer enough, he HAS to start producing and his stats are always horrid.
Even last night where you say he was in our bests, he had 11 disposals and 5 hitouts without hitting the scoreboard from 80% TOG.
That just has to be the bottom level of his form yet it'll likely be his best game for 2 months.

 

[Vdubs]

Haven't watched enough of the match to comment - I was at work and knowing the result I'm not sure I can bring myself to watch the replay

I think that game will serve us well. A lesson in composure under pressure, making the most of opportunities, and their best players doing what they should do.
Heeney is worth watching just for his elite skills and grit.
And the Buddy factor.
Worth a look.

 

[Vdubs]

He did like two good things but was otherwise complete garbage. Typical Sav basically.

What you look for, you'll see.

 

[David the Cat]

No love for Sav after yesterday?
I thought he was in our best- not a great feat I guess, given how down we were, but he showed a fair bit of attitude and endeavour yesterday

Yes...best game for sometime....thought he was good yesterday.

 

[goyoucatters]

For me, attitude and endeavor are no longer enough, he HAS to start producing and his stats are always horrid.
Even last night where you say he was in our bests, he had 11 disposals and 5 hitouts without hitting the scoreboard from 80% TOG.
That just has to be the bottom level of his form yet it'll likely be his best game for 2 months.

It was indicative of just how he's going that this was clearly one of his best games for quite a while. Yet he still only just reached double-digit possessions (fourth-lowest for us), didn't hit the scoreboard, and had no score involvements.

Even his possessions mostly prove to be of negligible value at the moment, as he consistently kicks the ball up the chimney and gives every man and his dog ample opportunity to come through and kill the ball.

His effort was better in this game but it still didn't translate to anything like an overly promising performance. And we're now up to 57 games and counting, with less than 10 of them being at a really decent level in my view.

The messaging around 'patience, grasshopper' is seriously wearing thin at this point.

 

[standupand]

It was indicative of just how he's going that this was clearly one of his best games for quite a while. Yet he still only just reached double-digit possessions (fourth-lowest for us), didn't hit the scoreboard, and had no score involvements.

Even his possessions mostly prove to be of negligible value at the moment, as he consistently kicks the ball up the chimney and gives every man and his dog ample opportunity to come through and kill the ball.

His effort was better in this game but it still didn't translate to anything like an overly promising performance. And we're now up to 57 games and counting, with less than 10 of them being at a really decent level in my view.

The messaging around 'patience, grasshopper' is seriously wearing thin at this point.

I'm a big fan of his, but even I didn't really see any huge difference between his week 1 and week 2 game. Maybe he looked better week 2 because everyone else was so poor? He even managed to do that thing cats09 always berates him for - flying for a ball 3 deep with no real right to the contest. I thought - " here we go, we'll never hear the end of it.." lol. What I do see is a big-bodied unselfish player who can really help his team if he knows where to position himself and competes hard in the air - bringing ground level players into the game and also making his presence felt at ground level too. Those types are valuable contributors even if they don't necessarily look it on the stats sheet.

 

[Vdubs]

I'm a big fan of his, but even I didn't really see any huge difference between his week 1 and week 2 game. Maybe he looked better week 2 because everyone else was so poor? He even managed to do that thing cats09 always berates him for - flying for a ball 3 deep with no real right to the contest. I thought - " here we go, we'll never hear the end of it.." lol. What I do see is a big-bodied unselfish player who can really help his team if he knows where to position himself and competes hard in the air - bringing ground level players into the game and also making his presence felt at ground level too. Those types are valuable contributors even if they don't necessarily look it on the stats sheet.

He was promising last week til the gut punch

 

[Down at K Park]

He was promising last week til the gut punch

What is sweet jeebus is this rubbish post. The gut punch wasn’t until half way through the 3rd quarter and he had had 2 or 3 touches to that point.

“Promising”

 

[cats_09]

What is sweet jeebus is this rubbish post. The gut punch wasn’t until half way through the 3rd quarter and he had had 2 or 3 touches to that point.

“Promising”

His total disposal count for the day was 4 whole touches - 3 in the first quarter & 1 in the second quarter. I thought his efforts in the first quarter showed some promise, there was a good, strong mark in defence early, and he looked like he was getting involved; maybe a sign of repaying the faith in his selection

Unfortunately after that we saw a return to what's a usual trend with Ratugolea & minimal impact thereafter and could easily forget he was playing

I get he was probably a bit uncomfortable after being winded, but he put his hand up as being right to come back on - his second half efforts were 2 tackles in the 3rd quarter & 2 hitouts in the last


I can't comment on his game against Sydney, but the main thing I want to really start seeing from Ratugolea isn't 20 disposals, 10 hitouts & 4 goals per match, but a presence across 4 quarters, whether that's when his in the ruck, as a target when his up forward and as he does seem to be seen as that 3rd tall target, hitting the scoreboard each week

 

[cats_09]

I'm a big fan of his, but even I didn't really see any huge difference between his week 1 and week 2 game. Maybe he looked better week 2 because everyone else was so poor? He even managed to do that thing cats09 always berates him for - flying for a ball 3 deep with no real right to the contest. I thought - " here we go, we'll never hear the end of it.." lol. What I do see is a big-bodied unselfish player who can really help his team if he knows where to position himself and competes hard in the air - bringing ground level players into the game and also making his presence felt at ground level too. Those types are valuable contributors even if they don't necessarily look it on the stats sheet.

If you're going to pot me, at least understand the point being made about him "crashing packs" - as someone else pointed out, "crashing packs" is a modern term & used to describe a player who doesn't mark the ball, and I don't know if a player across the 17 other teams where a key attribute is that they "crash packs", as I'm pretty sure the preference is for them to actually be able to mark the ball

I can't comment on Friday night, but all too often when he "crashes packs" there's not intent in his actions but rather he looks like a player who has misread the flight of the ball, is jumping from 3 deep with the intention of marking the ball which as we know doesn't often happen and he just looks like a player who doesn't understand the situation he is in.

So on Friday night, when he was jumping from 3 deep what was the intent of his actions:
- Did it look like he knew he wasn't in position for the mark & jumped with the intent of spoiling the defenders, maybe putting his knee into the back of the guy in front and a fist through the ball so it couldn't be marked?

- Or did he simply misread the flight of the ball, jump from 3 deep with the intention of going for the mark and positioning his hands for the mark, without understanding the situation and that going for the mark wasn't the optimal option available to him?



A great example of what I'm talking about is the following clip from training during last years finals series. At about the 23/24 second mark it cuts to Ratugolea & Zuth starting side-by-side with their eyes on the ball in flight; Zuth drifts in from of the 2-man pack of Fort & Stevens, getting 2 hands on the ball & nearly holding the mark. On the other hand, Ratugolea totally misreads the flight of the ball, tries to come over the top to take the mark & doesn't even get close; it's Fort who knocks the ball out of Zuth's hands
What would have been great to see from Ratugolea in that situation is the realisation that he's out of position to take the mark & rather than going with 2 hands into the contest he has no chance of winning, he instead puts a fist through the ball - that's where many of us talk about footy nous & understanding the game, which is something he seems to lack
All too often this situation is described as Ratugolea "crashing packs" but in reality he's doing no such thing, he's simply misread the ball & the situation and hasn't made any adjustment or attacked the pack with intent

 

[standupand]

If you're going to pot me, at least understand the point being made about him "crashing packs" - as someone else pointed out, "crashing packs" is a modern term & used to describe a player who doesn't mark the ball, and I don't know if a player across the 17 other teams where a key attribute is that they "crash packs", as I'm pretty sure the preference is for them to actually be able to mark the ball

I can't comment on Friday night, but all too often when he "crashes packs" there's not intent in his actions but rather he looks like a player who has misread the flight of the ball, is jumping from 3 deep with the intention of marking the ball which as we know doesn't often happen and he just looks like a player who doesn't understand the situation he is in.

So on Friday night, when he was jumping from 3 deep what was the intent of his actions:
- Did it look like he knew he wasn't in position for the mark & jumped with the intent of spoiling the defenders, maybe putting his knee into the back of the guy in front and a fist through the ball so it couldn't be marked?

- Or did he simply misread the flight of the ball, jump from 3 deep with the intention of going for the mark and positioning his hands for the mark, without understanding the situation and that going for the mark wasn't the optimal option available to him?



A great example of what I'm talking about is the following clip from training during last years finals series. At about the 23/24 second mark it cuts to Ratugolea & Zuth starting side-by-side with their eyes on the ball in flight; Zuth drifts in from of the 2-man pack of Fort & Stevens, getting 2 hands on the ball & nearly holding the mark. On the other hand, Ratugolea totally misreads the flight of the ball, tries to come over the top to take the mark & doesn't even get close; it's Fort who knocks the ball out of Zuth's hands
What would have been great to see from Ratugolea in that situation is the realisation that he's out of position to take the mark & rather than going with 2 hands into the contest he has no chance of winning, he instead puts a fist through the ball - that's where many of us talk about footy nous & understanding the game, which is something he seems to lack
All too often this situation is described as Ratugolea "crashing packs" but in reality he's doing no such thing, he's simply misread the ball & the situation and hasn't made any adjustment or attacked the pack with intent

I wasn't trying to pot you. Sorry if it came across that way. I know we disagree about his value to the team. I was actually acknowledging that he did that very thing (maybe midway through 2nd quarter?) you often (and again here) pick him up on and that was one reason I didn't necessarily see a huge improvement from rd1 and rd2 that others had.

 

[calder_daddy]

Question for the people who think Sav is tracking ok?
How do you rate Mason Cox

18

Mason Cox

Age

35

Ht

211cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.2

4star

D

6.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.0

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

1.8

5star

and Tim Obrien.
All similar players, especially Obrien and Sav

 

[Partridge]

Question for the people who think Sav is tracking ok?
How do you rate Mason Cox and Tim Obrien.
All similar players, especially Obrien and Sav

Haven't seen enough of O'Brien. Cox is complete garbage.

P.S. To Collingwood - please pick him next week.

 

[goyoucatters]

A great example of what I'm talking about is the following clip from training during last years finals series. At about the 23/24 second mark it cuts to Ratugolea & Zuth starting side-by-side with their eyes on the ball in flight; Zuth drifts in from of the 2-man pack of Fort & Stevens, getting 2 hands on the ball & nearly holding the mark. On the other hand, Ratugolea totally misreads the flight of the ball, tries to come over the top to take the mark & doesn't even get close; it's Fort who knocks the ball out of Zuth's hands
What would have been great to see from Ratugolea in that situation is the realisation that he's out of position to take the mark & rather than going with 2 hands into the contest he has no chance of winning, he instead puts a fist through the ball - that's where many of us talk about footy nous & understanding the game, which is something he seems to lack
All too often this situation is described as Ratugolea "crashing packs" but in reality he's doing no such thing, he's simply misread the ball & the situation and hasn't made any adjustment or attacked the pack with intent

That's our Sav. Out there 'crashing packs' full-time, when so many others have moved on to more nuanced ideas about how to play the game. Like actually affecting the contest, for example.

 

[Vdubs]

That's our Sav. Out there 'crashing packs' full-time, when so many others have moved on to more nuanced ideas about how to play the game. Like actually affecting the contest, for example.

And if he had leapt a little higher and taken the speccy, no way would you have posted that, and great with the slo-mo in hindsight. The actual real time viewing would have been more realistic. And he does go for those marks, and hopefully this year will start clunking more of them.

 

[goyoucatters]

And if he had leapt a little higher and taken the speccy, no way would you have posted that, and great with the slo-mo in hindsight. The actual real time viewing would have been more realistic. And he does go for those marks, and hopefully this year will start clunking more of them.

It's far, far, far from an isolated incident, though. Just underlines what I believe we see way too often from him when the ball is in the air. And it's also a prime reason why, apart from preventing what would have been Toma's match-winning goal at home against the Blues in 2020, he shows no discernible defensive attributes whatsoever.

I genuinely cannot see how it's possible to defend his 'consistent' output as being seniors-worthy at this point in his career, no matter what role he's playing in the team. But I don't think you have any cause for concern, really. Shows every sign of being picked from here until eternity, no matter whether he's realising his mythical 'potential' or not.

 

[thecatattack]

There has to be something the coaches see in him for him to play basically every game. I wonder what it is.

 

[Down at K Park]

There has to be something the coaches see in him for him to play basically every game. I wonder what it is.

The fact ceglar is injured

 

[Vdubs]

It's far, far, far from an isolated incident, though. Just underlines what I believe we see way too often from him when the ball is in the air. And it's also a prime reason why, apart from preventing what would have been Toma's match-winning goal at home against the Blues in 2020, he shows no discernible defensive attributes whatsoever.

I genuinely cannot see how it's possible to defend his 'consistent' output as being seniors-worthy at this point in his career, no matter what role he's playing in the team. But I don't think you have any cause for concern, really. Shows every sign of being picked from here until eternity, no matter whether he's realising his mythical 'potential' or not.

Fair enough. We win and lose games, and Sav is rarely the major concrern, but he is for some here. I think we have bigger fish to fry, looking at our week to week performances, and if anything, Sav was one of our better players early on.

 

[Vdubs]

The fact ceglar is injured

Ceglar and Cameron are injury prone, and Sav still has lots of time to mature his athletic prowess.

 

[God Mode]

There has to be something the coaches see in him for him to play basically every game. I wonder what it is.

I'd say it's stepping up when the rest of the team doesn't. Say what you will about his abilities and least he shows some defiance and hunger to win .

 

[cats_09]

That's our Sav. Out there 'crashing packs' full-time, when so many others have moved on to more nuanced ideas about how to play the game. Like actually affecting the contest, for example.

A crazy as this may sound, I don't think we see enough mongrel from him and he's almost too nice out on the field

Not saying that I want to see him to into a contest with a swinging arm like Draper did, but it would be good to see him throw his weight around a bit more. If he's going to jump into a marking contest from 3 deep where he's not in position to mark the ball, then really be strong in his attack on the pack of players & the ball - be prepared to punch the ball when that's needed

 

[STPer18]

We're still picking duds like Kolo and Zuthrie down back, so I'm happy for them to keep persisting with Sav.

 

[goyoucatters]

Fair enough. We win and lose games, and Sav is rarely the major concrern, but he is for some here. I think we have bigger fish to fry, looking at our week to week performances, and if anything, Sav was one of our better players early on.

I don't disagree about him not being the biggest concern. We have other major issues across the park that are more likely to cruel our chances overall. Doesn't alter my conviction that, in my 40+ years of watching the Cats, I've never seen a single player deliver so little in any of the roles allocated to him and yet still be selected for so many senior games.