Review Round 23, 2022 - Brisbane Lions vs. Melbourne

[mpal6]

Was speaking to one of the Senior players who played last night, at the VFL today and he said that there is just something about Melbourne, the team is really confident of beating any team but he said Melbourne he just doesn’t know (maybe it is a mental thing) he said.
Other than them, anyone anywhere. Boys are having a 3 or 4 day break after recovery, before preparing for finals.
It was a really good little chat.

This gives even more credibility to what Geelong did in the off season. They prepared with Demons in mind and moved their plan, structure and players around. Rather than throw in the towel now, Fagan could do a hail mary. We are still alive in this and this is like a 4 week crash course before the big test. Give each player a particular assignment and let them prepare day n night for it.

Deven - Graham, Parker, Selwood, Oliver
Madden - Cumberland, Heeney, Close, Kozzy

Give similar roles to Prior and the other youngsters. Those who have the ability to run and match up well with Demons are the only ones who should be playing in finals. This way if we get that far, we are ready.

Fagan needs to swallow his pride and prepare fully for opposition. We are not three-peat Lions or Hawks to say we play our way and don't care about opposition game plan. Fagan acknowledged Dees got hold of us again and its not a mulligan. Time to show what we can do about it at least from here onwards.

 

[royboys4eva]

We had more inside 50's and got pumped by 10 goals! Something very wrong about that. Great pressure from the Dees no doubt and they denied us the corridor as they always do but basically we dumped kicked and straight to Lever and May - just how they hoped we would.

Our game plan stands up when teams pay it no attention or are not good enough to stop it. When we play the top teams our structure falls away. Our defensive game which was so strong over the previous years has completely collapsed.

The midfield has a lot to do with this as their isn't enough tracking back. Too much one way running. Lyons has been an outstanding pick up for our club and played some wonderful games since coming to the Lions but his lack of pace has finally caught up to him and he isn't getting the ball nearly as often. He needs to make way next year.. Also you can't have Lyons and Matho in the same midfield. Sure we might win more contested ball but we will get killed by oppositions pace on turnover.

McStay leaving might be a blessing - we're so intent on playing three tall's. Friday night they never looked like taking marks and when the ball did hit the ground the Dees just strolled out of defence with no pressure from our forwards. Someone like Gunston might be an option for a couple years as 3rd tall or do we just go with two talls and the likes of Cameron - Rayner - McCarthy - Bailey - Lohmann and maybe even Zorko. Will force our mids to lower there eyes and hit up the smaller leading forwards but also would hopefully mean more forward pressure. When we beat Richmond in the finals a few years ago our forward pressure was manic. They had to dump kicks out of their backline. We don't do that anymore.

The back line is playing like it has last 3/4 years but the problem is we are not applying the same pressure down the ground so now our backs are getting caught out all the time. Teams are just streaming through the middle now with not enough pressure and teams have worked out that our backs are not standing tight - we always look to intercept or come from the side for a spoil. Teams now just hit up there forwards on the lead and we get caught out all the time..Starcevich only one who seems capable of being tight on his opponent.

Things can change quickly in football but to me we have the look of a side who has got stale and run out of ideas or no plan B. I have very little confidence we can do much in September. I would be happy just to beat Richmond at this stage. We just seem a mile of the top teams.

We need a big reset in the off season. Rejuvenate the midfield which Ashcroft should do in the coming years. But we need to start getting games into Dev Robertson if he stays and Prior. Willmot down back needs to start playing next season. Lohman needs more games as he looks a prospect.

We still have a very strong list but I feel we may need to take a few steps back before going forwards.

 

[rusty08]

As far as I’m aware, Gardiner has gone in for surgery the last three off-seasons. It’s not the off season or preseason when injuries occur. It’s during the season.

If Gardiner is as banged up and in continual pain as Mighty Lions has said, then it’s fair to guess that his performances will drop when he starts carrying further injuries during the season.

It was like watching a first gamer Fri night. He's had some stinkers over the years, but his game was as jittery as I've seen. He's not what you'd call a "thinking mans" footballer.

 

[T Rick]

We had more inside 50's and got pumped by 10 goals! Something very wrong about that. Great pressure from the Dees no doubt and they denied us the corridor as they always do but basically we dumped kicked and straight to Lever and May - just how they hoped we would.

Our game plan stands up when teams pay it no attention or are not good enough to stop it. When we play the top teams our structure falls away. Our defensive game which was so strong over the previous years has completely collapsed.

The midfield has a lot to do with this as their isn't enough tracking back. Too much one way running. Lyons has been an outstanding pick up for our club and played some wonderful games since coming to the Lions but his lack of pace has finally caught up to him and he isn't getting the ball nearly as often. He needs to make way next year.. Also you can't have Lyons and Matho in the same midfield. Sure we might win more contested ball but we will get killed by oppositions pace on turnover.

McStay leaving might be a blessing - we're so intent on playing three tall's. Friday night they never looked like taking marks and when the ball did hit the ground the Dees just strolled out of defence with no pressure from our forwards. Someone like Gunston might be an option for a couple years as 3rd tall or do we just go with two talls and the likes of Cameron - Rayner - McCarthy - Bailey - Lohmann and maybe even Zorko. Will force our mids to lower there eyes and hit up the smaller leading forwards but also would hopefully mean more forward pressure. When we beat Richmond in the finals a few years ago our forward pressure was manic. They had to dump kicks out of their backline. We don't do that anymore.

The back line is playing like it has last 3/4 years but the problem is we are not applying the same pressure down the ground so now our backs are getting caught out all the time. Teams are just streaming through the middle now with not enough pressure and teams have worked out that our backs are not standing tight - we always look to intercept or come from the side for a spoil. Teams now just hit up there forwards on the lead and we get caught out all the time..Starcevich only one who seems capable of being tight on his opponent.

Things can change quickly in football but to me we have the look of a side who has got stale and run out of ideas or no plan B. I have very little confidence we can do much in September. I would be happy just to beat Richmond at this stage. We just seem a mile of the top teams.

We need a big reset in the off season. Rejuvenate the midfield which Ashcroft should do in the coming years. But we need to start getting games into Dev Robertson if he stays and Prior. Willmot down back needs to start playing next season. Lohman needs more games as he looks a prospect.

We still have a very strong list but I feel we may need to take a few steps back before going forwards.

Good analysis!

 

[mpal6]

Just to build on my earlier comment about throwing a hail mary in finals - if we look at other clubs, against Demons its Sparrow or Harmes who play on Neale. Windhager played on Neale for Saints. They try to map one of the lesser lights who can sacrifice their game to stop our prime mover.

When we play Demons though, we keep sending Berry to Langdon. Why ? Berry is a prime mover for us and can cover multiple spots. We shouldn't be wasting him trying to control Langdon. Instead you bring Harry Sharp in. Sit down with him and say "Son, you are getting a run for the entire finals series. Your primary job, stay with your opposition winger and make sure they don't get a single possession. Your second job, as soon as you see we have the ball - you turn around, hit top gear and burn your opposition winger off. Bring your entire steeple chase experience to the table and just make sure you run to space until your guts are burning and you're ready to puke. You come back to bench, take a breather and go out to do the same thing until you're ready to puke again, keep at it again and again for 4 quarters". Harry Sharp should be made very clear he is preparing for Langdon if we ever come across Demons in finals. This way we invest on a player who has the ability to keep up with their prime mover and release one of our important players (Berry) for other roles.

 

[Bucking Beads]

For such a high scoring team our Forward line is very dysfunctional. Also our key forwards don't play like key forwards so are utterly useless against good Key defenders.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Daniher, Hipwood, McStay kicked 3 between then

Linc, Charlie, Bailey and Rayner kicked 2 on the weekend

I don't think it's all on our key forwards.

 

[mpal6]

It was like watching a first gamer Fri night. He's had some stinkers over the years, but his game was as jittery as I've seen. He's not what you'd call a "thinking mans" footballer.

Does a dinky kick on the side, runs around in a circle around the same spot and puts his hand out as if he's free again for another possession. I don't think Gardiner is part of our best 22 anymore. Either he has regressed badly or trying to implement some defensive game plan which is very very flawed.

 

[bato]

Did have a laugh last night when David King blasted us for “switching the ball”. That’s exactly how you break Melbourne down - the long and direct stuff doesn’t work?! Both Carlton and Collingwood did the same.

I think he also mentioned that we’re not defensively good enough to defend the turnover from these switches. He could be right there, but I think we’ve generally been good at not turning it over against other teams? We cut apart Carlton and Richmond for a while.

Melbourne seem to be a little too good at defending them so I think they should be giving them credit instead of blasting us.

The rest of the segment seemed pretty spot on. Mentioned Andrews and his poor handovers, our post-clearance contested possessions not being good enough (comes down to work rate) and not being switched on from the first bounce. All three were pretty significant in the end.

 

[dlanod]

Did have a laugh last night when David King blasted us for “switching the ball”. That’s exactly how you break Melbourne down - the long and direct stuff doesn’t work?! Both Carlton and Collingwood did the same.

I think he also mentioned that we’re not defensively good enough to defend the turnover from these switches. He could be right there, but I think we’ve generally been good at not turning it over against other teams? We cut apart Carlton and Richmond for a while.

Our big weakness with the switch is progressing through Gardiner or Payne. Neither makes a quick decision - so it kills momentum while they look for the free man instead of just getting on with it, neither makes a good decision - so they often put teammates under pressure on the receiving end, and both tend to overestimate their kicking if they decide to take the game on - leading to turnovers in the middle of the ground. Andrews gets a bit of a pass because he knows his limitations and his role, and just gets the ball on quickly to someone in space.

A switch with a Rich or a Coleman in the middle is a lot more dangerous, but these days they both get manned up regardless so aren't left free to take that role often.

 

[Tom14]

Did have a laugh last night when David King blasted us for “switching the ball”. That’s exactly how you break Melbourne down - the long and direct stuff doesn’t work?! Both Carlton and Collingwood did the same.

I think he also mentioned that we’re not defensively good enough to defend the turnover from these switches. He could be right there, but I think we’ve generally been good at not turning it over against other teams? We cut apart Carlton and Richmond for a while.

Melbourne seem to be a little too good at defending them so I think they should be giving them credit instead of blasting us.

The rest of the segment seemed pretty spot on. Mentioned Andrews and his poor handovers, our post-clearance contested possessions not being good enough (comes down to work rate) and not being switched on from the first bounce. All three were pretty significant in the end.

Didn't watch it but not sure Harris was at fault for at least one of the switches - the one between him and Payne seemed pretty clearly to be on Jack, as he hadn't even been bumped out of it or blocked by Gawn at all.

 

[Required]

I haven’t gone as hard as a lot here, but last night was an insipid performance from the team.

Fagan’s presser came across as borderline delusional. Especially when he mentioned that we beat them on the scoreboard in the second half.

If we’re not to take Fagan’s presser’s at face value, which we’re clearly not, as he doesn’t give anything of substance in them, then what do you expect fans reactions to that to be?

Zorko last night was an embarrassment plain and simple, and that was before three quarter time, when he crossed the line. Constantly mouthing off and niggling at Melbourne players.

Of course people are angry and upset here.

If you’re on here, you’re more than just an average “fan”, who simply turns up at the game.

And truth be told, your continual talking up of the team midweek, “oh the boys are up and about this week”, “oh the boys are hurting after that performance and looking to turn it around next week”, etc feeds in to the feeling of disappointment after such a performance and loss.

Not to mention your defence of the coaches, selection policy, etc.

Your one gripe is the location of our new training base, which most here are either on board with, or understand why the base is out at Springfield and not located closer to Brisbane.

IMO, Brisbanes success has come from the draft/trade table over the past 4 years. Its culminated with perhaps the best list in the league. You cant hide all that talent. Its going to get you into the finals most years. But to become premiers takes a bit extra. A desire, ruthlessness they all buy into.

They can talk the talk all they want. They can speak of desire etc all they want. But its meaningless unless its reflected on the field. Because it isnt reflected on the field, means its all talk.

Can we really give Fagan credit for Brisbanes rise over the past 4 years? Has he really just had the benefit of an emerging list built by good trading in the draft? Are we giving him more credit than he deserves? I dont know. But something needs to change. Lions cant keep doing the same thing, and expect a different result.

I believe Fagen does need some help. During the game vs the Dees, i watched Fagan turn away from the game wide eyed, and swear soflty. He looked embarrassed, out of ideas, helpless. Not a good look. Not a good mindset. If he doesnt believe, the players will subconsciously know it.

Richmond are ruthless. Look at their past few wins. It will need to be one of the great coaching efforts to get the boys heads right and overcome the Tigers in two weeks.

 

[twhowler]

That first centre bounce. Says it all that Melbourne were actually proactive with a new plan for Neale by putting Brayshaw on him. What about us? Matho to Oliver, something new for him? Nah let's start Lyons in the middle. He's been so good since he came to the club. Back him in Fagan style.

As others have said, Lyons as the defensive centre square mid has become an abject failure. He doesn't have the tools for it anymore. We have all known it since about round 5. Except our coach and his team.

We had time to try Mathieson in there INSTEAD not on top of him. We had time to try Dev in there as a MIDFIELDER not a half forward. Heck if the coaching staff liked Tunstill give him a go in his position, as a mid. He looked quite good on the weekend in the 2s. We didn't need to drop Lyons forever. We could have dropped him, told him to work on his game in the 2s. But it's pick and stick for Fagan and now we have backed ourselves into a corner.

 

[western royboy]

That first centre bounce. Says it all that Melbourne were actually proactive with a new plan for Neale by putting Brayshaw on him. What about us? Matho to Oliver, something new for him? Nah let's start Lyons in the middle. He's been so good since he came to the club. Back him in Fagan style.

As others have said, Lyons as the defensive centre square mid has become an abject failure. He doesn't have the tools for it anymore. We have all known it since about round 5. Except our coach and his team.

We had time to try Mathieson in there INSTEAD not on top of him. We had time to try Dev in there as a MIDFIELDER not a half forward. Heck if the coaching staff liked Tunstill give him a go in his position, as a mid. He looked quite good on the weekend in the 2s. We didn't need to drop Lyons forever. We could have dropped him, told him to work on his game in the 2s. But it's pick and stick for Fagan and now we have backed ourselves into a corner.

For me Matho and Lyons are both too slow…that was horribly evident on Friday night

 

[Happy_Neale]

Looking forward to pinning all our hopes on an 18 year old next year

 

[Fitzroyal02]

For me Matho and Lyons are both too slow…that was horribly evident on Friday night

I dont mind Matho playing the same role as a yo-yo player (between 1s and 2s) but I agree- also not sure what we get out of Lyons that we couldn't out of Dev. Hope Matho gets a run around v Southport on Saturday to remake his case for the week later

 

[lionraven]

Im annoyed by Coleman. He plays like he is Pendelbury on a million bucks and lacks that defensive instinct to play back. He gets caught ball watching, he loses touch on his man and ends up out of position consistently. He is second to the contest and we get burned. It becomes a lot worse when we play against teams with high quality small forwards as they can exploit that match up easily. We can't afford this luxury if we are also playing Rich who is moving like a dump truck and also struggles to defend his man. Its not like Coleman doesnt know how to tackle or do that rough defensive stuff. He achieved that bone crunching tackle on Dusty in our previous finals win. He's just not doing it at the moment. It seems he has been huffing his own farts too much the last few weeks.

Coleman needs to learn that his responsibility is his man first. It doesnt matter if he starts 5 offensive scoring chains if he is giving up 5+ scoring shots to his opponent. He needs to watch how Jack Crisp

25

Jack Crisp

Age

32

Ht

190cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.2

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

9.7

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

17.7

4star

K

10.7

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

3star

CL

1.0

3star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

6.0

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

plays. Jack Crisp

25

Jack Crisp

Age

32

Ht

190cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.2

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

9.7

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

17.7

4star

K

10.7

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

3star

CL

1.0

3star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

6.0

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

is a solid defender but then uses his pace and kicking skills to really open up the game.

Id feel more confident with Ah Chee and Prior in the back line than Coleman at the moment. Hopefully Fagan gets Coleman refocussed this week on his defensive efforts.

 

[Dalions]

Daniher, Hipwood, McStay kicked 3 between then

Linc, Charlie, Bailey and Rayner kicked 2 on the weekend

I don't think it's all on our key forwards.

Nah! I’ll put it more on our mids actually, just blind bombing doesn’t help anyone, except the defence.

 

[twhowler]

Im annoyed by Coleman. He plays like he is Pendelbury on a million bucks and lacks that defensive instinct to play back. He gets caught ball watching, he loses touch on his man and ends up out of position consistently. He is second to the contest and we get burned. It becomes a lot worse when we play against teams with high quality small forwards as they can exploit that match up easily. We can't afford this luxury if we are also playing Rich who is moving like a dump truck and also struggles to defend his man. Its not like Coleman doesnt know how to tackle or do that rough defensive stuff. He achieved that bone crunching tackle on Dusty in our previous finals win. He's just not doing it at the moment. It seems he has been huffing his own farts too much the last few weeks.

Coleman needs to learn that his responsibility is his man first. It doesnt matter if he starts 5 offensive scoring chains if he is giving up 5+ scoring shots to his opponent. He needs to watch how Jack Crisp plays. Jack Crisp is a solid defender but then uses his pace and kicking skills to really open up the game.

Id feel more confident with Ah Chee and Prior in the back line than Coleman at the moment. Hopefully Fagan gets Coleman refocussed this week on his defensive efforts.

Interesting thoughts. I am MASSIVE on Coleman, but he seems to have gone missing since the Richmond match from about 3 quarter time. Thought he was superb v Dogs and Giants. Does he have a fitness issue, given he cramped v Richmond? Trying to jog around and conserve energy?

I find it hard to watch players closely on telly but he does seem to be playing within himself. Agree that he needs to build his game from defence first but i think he needs a bit more licence to be the creator - just not all the time. His intercept marking / spoiling is also bloody good as he is deceptively tall.

Needs to be told, you are our man now in the back half, have a big pre-season, keep being an honest defender, and then run-off any time you judge you can get the ball.

 

[On the quiet]

Didn't watch it but not sure Harris was at fault for at least one of the switches - the one between him and Payne seemed pretty clearly to be on Jack, as he hadn't even been bumped out of it or blocked by Gawn at all.

Yeah I reckon it was probably more Payne, but both of them have some fault as Andrews could have gone immediately when Payne directed him. Jackson (not Gawn) did not seem to put on a block, so in hindsight with Payne's greater speed he should have went. I think it is a really good example of a young guy who does not get to play consistently with the same backline at AFL level just getting a little confused.

I am not a fan of the zone defence, well structured teams like Melbourne and Richmond this week will exploit us, as Rich, Gardiner and Andrews are too slow and Kiddy is more an attacking type defender. Make it 1 v 1 and then you are accountable rather than this handing over, and diluting the ultimate responsibility. There were multiple instances on Friday night of all the defenders handing over resulting in a poor outcome. A number did involve Andrews though.

 

[mattsmob]

Im annoyed by Coleman. He plays like he is Pendelbury on a million bucks and lacks that defensive instinct to play back. He gets caught ball watching, he loses touch on his man and ends up out of position consistently. He is second to the contest and we get burned. It becomes a lot worse when we play against teams with high quality small forwards as they can exploit that match up easily. We can't afford this luxury if we are also playing Rich who is moving like a dump truck and also struggles to defend his man. Its not like Coleman doesnt know how to tackle or do that rough defensive stuff. He achieved that bone crunching tackle on Dusty in our previous finals win. He's just not doing it at the moment. It seems he has been huffing his own farts too much the last few weeks.

Coleman needs to learn that his responsibility is his man first. It doesnt matter if he starts 5 offensive scoring chains if he is giving up 5+ scoring shots to his opponent. He needs to watch how Jack Crisp plays. Jack Crisp is a solid defender but then uses his pace and kicking skills to really open up the game.

Id feel more confident with Ah Chee and Prior in the back line than Coleman at the moment. Hopefully Fagan gets Coleman refocussed this week on his defensive efforts.

Definitely has lapses throughout a game defensively but he’s probably our hardest working defender when it comes to overlap running and trying to provide run and carry so I give him a bit of slack for that. On turnover it explains why he might be out of position or gassed trying to get back. When he is locked in defensively I think he’s very good though, had a few really impressive moments against the Saints following Butler around stoppages and shutting him down.

 

[mpal6]

Im annoyed by Coleman. He plays like he is Pendelbury on a million bucks and lacks that defensive instinct to play back. He gets caught ball watching, he loses touch on his man and ends up out of position consistently. He is second to the contest and we get burned. It becomes a lot worse when we play against teams with high quality small forwards as they can exploit that match up easily. We can't afford this luxury if we are also playing Rich who is moving like a dump truck and also struggles to defend his man. Its not like Coleman doesnt know how to tackle or do that rough defensive stuff. He achieved that bone crunching tackle on Dusty in our previous finals win. He's just not doing it at the moment. It seems he has been huffing his own farts too much the last few weeks.

Coleman needs to learn that his responsibility is his man first. It doesnt matter if he starts 5 offensive scoring chains if he is giving up 5+ scoring shots to his opponent. He needs to watch how Jack Crisp plays. Jack Crisp is a solid defender but then uses his pace and kicking skills to really open up the game.

Id feel more confident with Ah Chee and Prior in the back line than Coleman at the moment. Hopefully Fagan gets Coleman refocussed this week on his defensive efforts.

One of the few blokes who can actually rebound and has the skills to start a scoring chain. If he's absolutely gassed running back to cover, I won't be that hard on him. It gets pretty difficult against top teams where all the small forwards can hurt you one way or another.

Coleman may not have the full body maturity to gut run and do it both ways, but his value in enabling our scoring means I'm happy for him to cheat forward and try to deal with defensive gaps using others.

 

[LongLion]

We are going to challenge Rayner's suspension & rightly so. Have accepted Answerths ban

 

[Tassie4ever]

The thought occurred during discussion with a fellow sufferer. Is there any way we can clone Martin Pike

Martin Pike

Age

53

Ht

189cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.2

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.4

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.6

3star

? A couple of big, no-crap blokes who say through me or not at all. Even a thug like May would be acceptable. Marginally.

And I don't know about anyone else bit I'm sick of the "we broke even if the second half"crap. The reality is we got thrashed. After 10mins blind freddy could predict a hiding and that we were totally intimidated. Personally I thought Melbourne took the foot off the gas to set themselves up for later proceedings

At least with a Pike or two the D's wouldn't get away with virtually bruise-free football. The most upsetting thing for me on Friday was sight of the Melbourne backs in a laughing get together- "how easy is this???".

Just another thought- in a top side like the D's if anyone doesn't perform it's see ya later. The pressure is on for young and old. Don't honestly know what any of out team needs to not do to get dropped. I know that there aren't all that many Reserves candidates putting themselves forward for promotion, having watched the 2's on Saturday. However, a bit of pressure from the rear can't do any harm, surely.

Correction from an earlier post. Mitch collected 42, not 40, possessions in the 2's, having turned out the night before. Against an unbeaten side. Can see why he's not getting a run-on game.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Amongst all the Zorko talk I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that Daly is a cancer survivor

Surely there is some sort of punishment that they're maybe trying to hide