NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Ricketz]

Smells to high heaven.


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Why? If they were able to pressure him to give up his sim card he had already been pressured to not contact his family. And if he thought his career was on the line and he was isolated it is totally believable that could happen. Most of Essendon's footy team were convinced to inject unknown substances for their careers.

Swapping the sim card would have prevented the family getting in touch with him. Their pressure would have prevented him getting in touch with them.

 

[sr36]

Why would they do that with no reason? What had been going on?


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Fair cahnce the recruits weren't preparing themselves well or living a lifestyle suited for an AFL career. Regardless, it's looking very bloody likely that the managers stepped miles over the line of appropriate intrusions into the private lives of their employees.

 

[ferball]

Are you saying two wrongs make a right? I am really not sure why you are giving me lessons about treatment of indigenous people.

I do have respect, just not for you. It's nothing personal, I don't have respect for anyone who speaks on behalf of the dead to give their argument credibility.

I lost close friends who took their own lives, were members of the stolen generation and went thru some serious shit and never got over the pain, never made it home in some cases or made it home only to never really fit and that was even worse and .... don't you ****en tell me what to say about them.

 

[South of the Yarra]

They were stolen from their families and forced to live as second class citizens while being subject to all manner of abuse. Including physical punishment for acting like black people. Its a fundamentally traumatic event for them and their families. As well as the stuff you said.

Aboriginal children are still being removed from their families ... with the "best of intentions" in the world. Did you know that?

* off!!

Who the hell do you think you are saying that. You have no *en respect kid.

Beaten if you spoke your local tongue, beaten if you associated with any other Aboriginals not 'half caste', told your mother hated you and neglected you because you didn't wear shoes, made to kneel on rice for acting Aboriginal, being told you will have the black beaten out of you and you won't see it through the bruises, being belted senseless for not being able to speak, read or write English, being told you beliefs are lies, having your name changed because your name was too Aboriginal, Never knowing your birth name, having your arm broken so you won't hunt or fish, never seeing your mother again, never seeing your brothers or sisters again, being whipped with stock whips and belted with razor strops, escaping to camps to hide from the abuse. Finding out years later your mother took her own life because of loss of kids. We could keep going all night. There are a lot of comments on here about stolen generation from people who really have no idea what it was. Think of our worst nightmares and that was the daily reality.

 

[Ricketz]

I lost close friends who took their own lives, were members of the stolen generation and went thru some serious s**t and never got over the pain, never made it home in some cases or made it home only to never really fit and that was even worse and .... don't you *en tell me what to say about them.

Well don't use their experience to support your argument and I won't.

 

[Nickoo]

Ironically this type of stuff may help Clarko. He may be a control freak, but at least he is an equal opportunity one.

That’s what I thought. So not a racism row but a coach control freak one.


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[Chief]

Why was she contacting the club and not her partner? Seems wierd

Yeah - how did the club insert itself so firmly between them?

 

[sr36]

But if officials thought that someone in their life was holding them back from becoming the best footballer they can be that’s perfectly normal.

Or if there were drug issues and domestic violence issues that might also make it perfectly normal.

What workplace is it normal in?

 

[Altum Volantes]

Yeah - how did the club insert itself so firmly between them?

It’s a real mystery.

Someone should really look into this.

 

[1970crow]

Well it's not my problem if you can't read what I wrote. The stolen generation were left without the guidance of their parents, elders and culture.

Nice job speaking on behalf of the dead, too. That's pretty disgraceful.

You might want to travel a bit.

 

[1970crow]

They were stolen from their families and forced to live as second class citizens while being subject to all manner of abuse. Including physical punishment for acting like black people. Its a fundamentally traumatic event for them and their families. As well as the stuff you said.

Aboriginal children are still being removed from their families ... with the "best of intentions" in the world. Did you know that?

* off!!

Who the hell do you think you are saying that. You have no *en respect kid.

You don’t think that aboriginal children that are being abused or not cared for should be afforded the same protection as non-indigenous children? Or is it that indigenous parents should have more leeway in terms of abuse and neglect?

I see you haven’t the faintest idea.

 

[1970crow]

Beaten if you spoke your local tongue, beaten if you associated with any other Aboriginals not 'half caste', told your mother hated you and neglected you because you didn't wear shoes, made to kneel on rice for acting Aboriginal, being told you will have the black beaten out of you and you won't see it through the bruises, being belted senseless for not being able to speak, read or write English, being told you beliefs are lies, having your name changed because your name was too Aboriginal, Never knowing your birth name, having your arm broken so you won't hunt or fish, never seeing your mother again, never seeing your brothers or sisters again, being whipped with stock whips and belted with razor strops, escaping to camps to hide from the abuse. Finding out years later your mother took her own life because of loss of kids. We could keep going all night. There are a lot of comments on here about stolen generation from people who really have no idea what it was. Think of our worst nightmares and that was the daily reality.

And then there’s my great nanna who didn’t experience any of that. But she was stolen by her father, so a fair bit different.

 

[South of the Yarra]

And then there’s my great nanna who didn’t experience any of that. But she was stolen by her father, so a fair bit different.

Many people have their own stories of heartbreak which is so sad. The difference with stolen generation is that it was the systematic destruction and targeting of an entire race based on the colour of your skin.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You don’t think that aboriginal children that are being abused or not cared for should be afforded the same protection as non-indigenous children? Or is it that indigenous parents should have more leeway in terms of abuse and neglect?

I see you haven’t the faintest idea.

Just out of interest can you please enlighten us on the ‘idea’.Always interested in peoples viewpoints.Consider my knowledge of this to be very strong so would love to hear more.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

He denying that went down yeah.

Despite you saying this:



About 10 pages ago.

Now surely if just that one sentence hadn't been published then this whole thing would have a different vibe.

I think he's denying that he said 'kill your kid'. But it's my guess that the meeting and the conversation about parenthood and the pregnancy did happen. So the event did go down, IMO.

What Clarkson meant by his comments, is what is being denied.


And the article didn't state that he said 'kill your kid' either.

 

[Del191229]

Yeah - how did the club insert itself so firmly between them?

There's a range of potential answers to these questions, none of which Jackson bothered to entertain, let alone interrogate, in his original piece, or more importantly, in subsequent work.

This is the thing I keep coming back to - there's been no serious follow up by Jackson or anyone else, bar Caro's story with the partners and Sam Mitchell story, which threw more light on one element of Jackson's story re reproductive health and control, but then also put serious question marks under his framing that this was done only to Aboriginal players.

I don't know if, or how much of the investigation will be made public, or if it will even go ahead in any meaningful sense.

But I'm very confident that the partners especially are going to discover that they versions of events their boyfriends relayed to them have a very different feel when presented from other angles.

 

[Curly5]

I think he's denying that he said 'kill your kid'. But it's my guess that the meeting and the conversation about parenthood and the pregnancy did happen. So the event did go down, IMO.

What Clarkson meant by his comments, is what is being denied.
And the article didn't state that he said 'kill your kid' either.

No, people have rather hysterically extrapolated that from “get rid of them”.

I’m getting the impression that that particular player was having relationship difficulties, with personal demands being placed on him by the partner and possibly others, whilst he was having to comply with the strict regimen that came with being at an AFL club. Perhaps he was embarrassed and upset by them phoning all the time, during training and meetings, or trying to get him to come home or do other things, and he asked the coaches what he should do. Their answer was the fast expedient way- change your phone number.

I doubt they “ripped his SIM card out” but that turn of phrase certainly adds to the drama

 

[Del191229]

Fair cahnce the recruits weren't preparing themselves well or living a lifestyle suited for an AFL career. Regardless, it's looking very bloody likely that the managers stepped miles over the line of appropriate intrusions into the private lives of their employees.

The real question about all this is where is that line.

Collingwood have inserted "behaviour" clauses into De Goey's contract.

Richmond told Dustin Martin who he could and couldn't socialise with.

North banned our players from social media the week after a bad flogging last year.

That's the real nub of the story - with a significant overlay for indigenous players in Hawthorn's example.

Where are the players association in all this too ffs.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

No, people have rather hysterically extrapolated that from “get rid of them”.

I’m getting the impression that that particular player was having relationship difficulties, with personal demands being placed on him by the partner and possibly others, whilst he was having to comply with the strict regimen that came with being at an AFL club. Perhaps he was embarrassed and upset by them phoning all the time, during training and meetings, or trying to get him to come home or do other things, and he asked the coaches what he should do. Their answer was the fast expedient way- change your phone number.

I doubt they “ripped his SIM card out” but that turn of phrase certainly adds to the drama

Well the player clearly felt that Clarkson meant 'kill your kid' - but they were his words, not Clarkson's (according to the article).

Now obviously, you don't have to use those precise words to in fact mean what the player thought he meant.

So the player could be absolutely right.

But this is what is being denied. Not the events, but the details of them and the clearly the intent.

 

[Del191229]

You mean the ones that weren't turned off by the abuses they witnessed?

Mate, if there's only one assistant complaining and dozens of others who have gone on to thrive, maybe it means there weren't abuses, or they occurred in contexts very different to what Jackson's article portrayed.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Mate, if there's only one assistant complaining and dozens of others who have gone on to thrive, maybe it means there weren't abuses, or they occurred in contexts very different to what Jackson's article portrayed.

The context appears to have been 'being ruthless and winning footy matches'.

I'm sure other assistant coaches were all over that. Even now, being 'ruthless' seems to be what every coach and administrator needs to be to be successful.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

The real question about all this is where is that line.

Collingwood have inserted "behaviour" clauses into De Goey's contract.

Richmond told Dustin Martin who he could and couldn't socialise with.

North banned our players from social media the week after a bad flogging last year.

That's the real nub of the story - with a significant overlay for indigenous players in Hawthorn's example.

Where are the players association in all this too ffs.

Dangerfield as head of the Players association was a disgrace this year.
His comment on Ginnivan after the qualifying final... he should have stood down. Didn't comment at all when ginnivan was being discriminated and purged by newscorp. A 19yo kid.
I have no respect for him. The aflpa is a disgrace

 

[RichLeMonde]

"However, as the allegations against me have been spread widely and sometimes presented as indisputable matters of fact, I must state that my clear memory of the matters reported is very different," he said.

Why would he have clear memories of matters reported that didn't occur?

"The failure to maintain the confidentiality of the review and further damaging public speculation means I have no option but to express publicly, in the strongest and most emphatic terms possible, that I did not behave in the manner claimed."

Again, not denying the events occurred, just how he has been characterised.

"I have been committed to acknowledging and understanding their many varied experiences and brought all my efforts to ensuring these players are given the opportunity to realise their dreams. But not at any cost, and never at the cost of their families as has been alleged."

Again, not denying the events occurred, denying the outcome of those events and the motivations for actioning them.

I really don’t know why you keep making this argument. If someone says they have a very different memory of events, they are, in effect, denying that those events occurred - in their specific details - insofar as they have been described by the other party.

 

[Chief]

Mate, if there's only one assistant complaining and dozens of others who have gone on to thrive, maybe it means there weren't abuses, or they occurred in contexts very different to what Jackson's article portrayed.

Or maybe it means they were more careful or not a lot of other assistants were in the loop.

Or there are more guilty parties skulking around the clubs.

 

[mcnulty]

Or maybe it means they were more careful or not a lot of other assistants were in the loop.

Or there are more guilty parties skulking around the clubs.

Once again I ask, as a genuine question- other than vague references to Clarkson’s style, is there anything from this former coach that directly supports the families’ accounts?