NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Del191229]

No, people have rather hysterically extrapolated that from “get rid of them”.

I’m getting the impression that that particular player was having relationship difficulties, with personal demands being placed on him by the partner and possibly others, whilst he was having to comply with the strict regimen that came with being at an AFL club. Perhaps he was embarrassed and upset by them phoning all the time, during training and meetings, or trying to get him to come home or do other things, and he asked the coaches what he should do. Their answer was the fast expedient way- change your phone number.

I doubt they “ripped his SIM card out” but that turn of phrase certainly adds to the drama

"Nah sorry, I can't, Clarko is making me do xxx" is also a great get out of jail card for players.

There's also some rather distasteful assumptions being made that the players in question were all saints here - that in itself is quite racist.

Footy players tend to be dirty dogs when it comes to their relationships.

That lots of this is coming from their partners leaves lots of room for ... other interpretations.

 

[western royboy]

Once again I ask, as a genuine question- other than vague references to Clarkson’s style, is there anything from this former coach that directly supports the families’ accounts?

Who knows….that’s what the investigation will hopefully tease out

 

[sr36]

The real question about all this is where is that line.

Collingwood have inserted "behaviour" clauses into De Goey's contract.

Richmond told Dustin Martin who he could and couldn't socialise with.

North banned our players from social media the week after a bad flogging last year.

That's the real nub of the story - with a significant overlay for indigenous players in Hawthorn's example.

Where are the players association in all this too ffs.

When Kane Cornes said that Collingwood shouldn't have "allowed" Jordan Degoey to go on holiday during his time off, people actually took it seriously and it triggered a heap of "considered" discussion and heaps inside and outside the industry actually agreed with him, rather than ridiculing him for suggesting that the employer could have any right to exercise that sort of control. The level of ownership that some feel should be exerted over these young men is obscene.

Where race is relevant is if you're dabbling in lifestyle control it is likely to be biased towards the white private school culture where most of the coaches come from.

 

[Del191229]

"In April, Victoria’s truth-telling commission – Yoorrook – began public hearings to document the ongoing impacts of colonisation on First Nations Victorians."

This the perfect arena for this matter. If Rusty had a brane he'd have contacted them too, and that would have been his follow up story.

Historic deal struck to begin Victorian treaty negotiations with First Nations groups

Under the framework, traditional owners will enter into interim agreements during negotiations

www.theguardian.com

 

[Curly5]

Well the player clearly felt that Clarkson meant 'kill your kid' - but they were his words, not Clarkson's (according to the article).

Now obviously, you don't have to use those precise words to in fact mean what the player thought he meant.

So the player could be absolutely right.

But this is what is being denied. Not the events, but the details of them and the clearly the intent.

See, I find it outrageously unlikely that anyone in Clarkson’s position, even if they’re an authoritarian as Clarkson is alleged to be (but probably not the only sports coach in the world to be that way), would single out one young impressionable recruit with the intent of ending the boy’s partner’s pregnancy. I’m thinking it was the disruptive relationship that was causing problems, the lad being pushed this way and that by family members.

However, after this incident what happened next? The player stayed with the club, stayed with the partner, had the baby, saw the year out, came back the next year (during which the partner had an abortion of her/their own volition), saw that year out as well before being delisted.

I don’t see a pattern of discriminatory behaviour by anyone here.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Once again I ask, as a genuine question- other than vague references to Clarkson’s style, is there anything from this former coach that directly supports the families’ accounts?

None whatsoever. He said of the coaches, “if you dared question their methods you were frozen out”. They ran the club like the “Russian mafia”. “I knew this day would come”.

Those comments, on their own, say nothing in respect of the specific accusations against Clarkson et al.

 

[Curly5]

None whatsoever. He said of the coaches, “if you dared question their methods you were frozen out”. They ran the club like the “Russian mafia”. “I knew this day would come”.

Those comments, on their own, say nothing in respect of the specific accusations against Clarkson et al.

The more I read that the more it sounds ridiculous and self-serving.

 

[Del191229]

Dangerfield as head of the Players association was a disgrace this year.
His comment on Ginnivan after the qualifying final... he should have stood down. Didn't comment at all when ginnivan was being discriminated and purged by newscorp. A 19yo kid.
I have no respect for him. The aflpa is a disgrace

I agree, it is a shambles of an org.

 

[mcnulty]

None whatsoever. He said of the coaches, “if you dared question their methods you were frozen out”. They ran the club like the “Russian mafia”. “I knew this day would come”.

Those comments, on their own, say nothing in respect of the specific accusations against Clarkson et al.

Which is problematic because as a non indigenous person he also appears to be outside of the reports ToR.

Certainly call into question the motivations for including him.

 

[RichLeMonde]

The more I read that the more it sounds ridiculous and self-serving.

I’m hoping you’re referring to the assistant coach I quoted and not me lol

 

[blackshadow]

I agree, it is a shambles of an org.

It’s because it’s been set up and predominantly funded by the AFL not the players. It’s basically part of the AFL’s PR machine.

 

[The 747]

It’s because it’s been set up and predominantly funded by the AFL not the players. It’s basically part of the AFL’s PR machine.

Controlled opposition

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I don’t see a pattern of discriminatory behaviour by anyone here.

I don't think that's the issue here.

 

[Del191229]

Or maybe it means they were more careful or not a lot of other assistants were in the loop.

Or there are more guilty parties skulking around the clubs.

All possible.

But given the lack of other victims and witnesses emerging, it is far more likely these were very isolated incidents.

And even more likely that what happened is different from how it was presented in Jackson's article. Or more accurately, there's other very legitimate reads too.

As I've said to ferball and Yolngu in my discussions with them, I understand that Clarkson and Fagan would have come across - middle aged white men in uniforms - like the horrific cops and teachers and social workers who had bullied and traumatised these young people and their families for generations. They were also making traumatic decisions for ANY players re their future on the list with all that means for income and status.

But the lack if follow up, the lack of other people coming forward, the lack of any substance being added to Jackson's story beyond two fairly flat Caro articles - and you KNOW she'd love to bring down Clarkson, especially at North - that's telling too.

As is Jackson's ugly outbursr on social media last week. And so is Brisbane and North's willingness to back in Fagan and Clarkson, at least until the investigation is done.

These are both clubs with proud indigenous histories and lots of indigenous players on their current lists. If they were hearing there's a really big fire under all this smoke, they wouldn't be doing that

When Jackson's story dropped I thought it was going to be the first of a series and that there'd be no way Clarkson and Fagan could or should coach again.

But there has been no follow up by Jackson or others. As it stands the allegations, very serious as they are, are just that.

And they're anonymous allegations, many of which are second hand, coming years after the event, contained in a report that was never meant to be made public.

You have to look at this situation in its entirety.

Remember the Essendon doping situation - there was a continual drip feed of new information. Lots of journalists, including the best in the country, working on it.

That just hasn't happened here, despite it being potentially such a huge story.

In fact, the direction of travel as it were has been away from Jackson's initial bombshell.

 

[Laphroaig]

No that's not what I'm saying. You're only punching certain individuals - not everyone. If your criteria is males under the height of 173cm, there's a fair chance that you'll punch a disproportionate number of Vietnamese men.

If you are a footy coach and you believe in the concept of that "idle minds are the devil's workshop" so you have a blanket rule that no one can associate with people who aren't in full time work or study, Your motivation isn't racist, but the outcome of your rule will fall more heavily on players who come from sections of society with higher rates of unemployment - in this case, your players with strong ties to indigenous communities.

If the stories are true, god knows what criteria these coaches were using to intervene so dangerously in the live's of these players, but there's a possibility that it made players with strong links to indigenous communities more likely to become victims - eg. a racist outcome.

You, at least, are holding a discussion, although I would propose to you that coincidental fallout and a racist outcome are not equals. To be fair my first profession was one where being told by a higher up that your choice of potential spouse would damage your career was hardly unusual, so my point of view is different.

You do, however, touch on the point that DOES get my panties in a bunch. Unemployment, poverty, poor education outcomes, violence within the community. The underlying problems that a million virtue signallers sitting at their keyboards for a lifetime with their outrage meters spinning out of control will do ZERO to improve. But at least they'll feel all warm about themselves.

Many of them will call the preceeding sentence a racist comment. Mere mention of these problems is forbidden. Perhaps they should get off their arses and out of mum's spare room and get out there on the ground.

And to be clear, by on the ground I do not mean marching up and down metropolitan streets screeching slogans borrowed from a culture and racial divide massively different to our own. Which serves only to produce masses of noise and drown out conversation of the reality.

I have been out there on the ground, and it is confronting. Very confronting. And daunting. Seemingly impossible.

 

[Del191229]

When Kane Cornes said that Collingwood shouldn't have "allowed" Jordan Degoey to go on holiday during his time off, people actually took it seriously and it triggered a heap of "considered" discussion and heaps inside and outside the industry actually agreed with him, rather than ridiculing him for suggesting that the employer could have any right to exercise that sort of control. The level of ownership that some feel should be exerted over these young men is obscene.

Where race is relevant is if you're dabbling in lifestyle control it is likely to be biased towards the white private school culture where most of the coaches come from.

Some clubs quite openly recruit from private schools as seemingly a policy, and don't recruit indigenous players.

If the Bulldogs didn't have JUH land in their lap via an Academy system that doesn't exist any more, they may as well be the APS Bulldogs.

The Swans very rarely draft indigenous players and are all about the Charlie Horsewater types. One footy media type put it to me that the Swans "No Dickheads" policy is a nice way of saying "white private school kids only if we have to draft outside our Academy".

 

[Del191229]

Which is problematic because as a non indigenous person he also appears to be outside of the reports ToR.

Certainly call into question the motivations for including him.

Hawthorn's governance on this has been shambolic.

 

[Del191229]

It’s because it’s been set up and predominantly funded by the AFL not the players. It’s basically part of the AFL’s PR machine.

Demetriou going from there to running the show lol.

 

[blackshadow]

One footy media type put it to me that the Swans "No Dickheads" policy is a nice way of saying "white private school kids only if we have to draft outside our Academy".

I can assure you there are plenty of dickheads who were white private school kids!

 

[South of the Yarra]

You, at least, are holding a discussion, although I would propose to you that coincidental fallout and a racist outcome are not equals. To be fair my first profession was one where being told by a higher up that your choice of potential spouse would damage your career was hardly unusual, so my point of view is different.

You do, however, touch on the point that DOES get my panties in a bunch. Unemployment, poverty, poor education outcomes, violence within the community. The underlying problems that a million virtue signallers sitting at their keyboards for a lifetime with their outrage meters spinning out of control will do ZERO to improve. But at least they'll feel all warm about themselves.

Many of them will call the preceeding sentence a racist comment. Mere mention of these problems is forbidden. Perhaps they should get off their arses and out of mum's spare room and get out there on the ground.

And to be clear, by on the ground I do not mean marching up and down metropolitan streets screeching slogans borrowed from a culture and racial divide massively different to our own. Which serves only to produce masses of noise and drown out conversation of the reality.

I have been out there on the ground, and it is confronting. Very confronting. And daunting. Seemingly impossible.

Please tell me how these people change these outcomes by 'being on the ground'. What can they do to change the problems Aboriginal people encounter? How can they make a difference? I am interested about your own 'on the ground' experience with Aboriginal people. A lot of problems have been created by people being on the ground.

 

[Del191229]

I can assure you there are plenty of dickheads who were white private school kids!

Obviously - but you know what I/they mean.

 

[sr36]

You, at least, are holding a discussion, although I would propose to you that coincidental fallout and a racist outcome are not equals.

Can I suggest that the real difference in what we're saying is language.

Racist is an incredible powerful word that conjures up images of the KKK and all manner of hideous injustice.

It's use has been expanded to tap into the horror we attach to it. It's now used to include things outside of beliefs of innate superiority. It's now used to include things that will disadvantage a particular culture, even if unintended. I'd be happy for a different word to be used to describe this, as using the term racism creates a heap of misunderstanding. And frankly, the way it's currently being used regarding "systemic racism" will eventually strip the word of it's impact. And the concept of racial hatred should have a serious impact that can be summed up in one term. But for now it will continue to be used, as the word currently just has so much power.

 

[Chief]

the lack of any substance being added to Jackson's story

This isn't Jackson's story, it's the story of the people involved.

 

[Chief]

Mere mention of these problems is forbidden.

You JUST mentioned them.

 

[Del191229]

This isn't Jackson's story, it's the story of the people involved.

You know what I meant there.