NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Del191229]

I've been on the bench seat, watching from afar...

Gil's comments,


This bolded comment actually made me feel sick, no wonder the accuser's, don't want the AFL to be part of it...
That comment alone makes the boy's club, sweeping under the table, fake review and already made up their mind, comments seriously plausible...

The North supporters blind support for a guy that has never even coached a game for your club are encroaching on Essendon supporter levels...

AFL releases terms of reference for Hawks probe, reveals end date

The independent panel investigating historical allegations of racism at Hawthorn intends to complete its work this year

www.afl.com.au

He also did play nearly 100 games for us. I mean, its not as if he was a nobody to us before this.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

I don't think he poses any risk, so think he should be able to go to work, pending an investigation. But I don't think it'll happen, because there will be significant backlash. It's an odd climate in the AFL. JDG was bizarrely stood down until the end of a hearing about a bar fight where noone was significantly hurt.

Come on bud, don’t do that.

 

[Psicosis]

I've been on the bench seat, watching from afar...

Gil's comments,


This bolded comment actually made me feel sick, no wonder the accuser's, don't want the AFL to be part of it...
That comment alone makes the boy's club, sweeping under the table, fake review and already made up their mind, comments seriously plausible...

The North supporters blind support for a guy that has never even coached a game for your club are encroaching on Essendon supporter levels...

AFL releases terms of reference for Hawks probe, reveals end date

The independent panel investigating historical allegations of racism at Hawthorn intends to complete its work this year

www.afl.com.au

Worth noting that Gil's comments are made knowing both sides of the story, having read the report/article as well as spoken to Clarkson & Fagan in-depth. If we want to speculate, I imagine there's also a chance he has a little more background information on this entire situation then the general public has.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Here's the Hansard of Nick McKenzie giving evidence to the Victorian Parliament's Inquiry into Extremism, which about as a result of his reporting.

You raised Nick as the gold standard (rightly) a few days ago, and said you think Rusty would have the same committment and attention to detail as Nick.

This is what it looks like. He fololws through the whole way, doesn't just post one unsubstantiated story then start having freakout on Twitter and defaming club presidents.

This whole mess should be somewhere formal now, like Yoo-Rook, and a truly top shelf journo like McKenzie would have made it happen.

Instead its in an AFL bodgehouse because Rusty isn't as good as he thinks he is.

https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/SCLSI/Inquiry_into_Extremism_In_Victoria/Transcripts/2022.06.14/2._FINAL-NIck_McKenzie.pdf

He was invited to parliament to comment . Not sure what point your trying to make other than exercise your anger at Jackson , I am sure Jackson or any journalist would participate if invited too.

You really dont understand , your comments just read of utter nonsense.

Talk about his article , tell us what is wrong with it????? You have nothing , this why you just attack Jackson instead .

 

[Ricketz]

You might want to travel a bit.

Why?

 

[Slartibartfast]

None so blind as those who don’t want to see.

Many shortcomings to Rusty’s article/methodology have been pointed out by people with long-term experience in the media environment but you just dismiss them out of hand.

No there hasn’t Been any discussion about whats wrong with Jackson article, just attacks on Jackson.

Who has long term media experience here that has shown any insight to the article??

 

[Ricketz]

I really don’t know why you keep making this argument. If someone says they have a very different memory of events, they are, in effect, denying that those events occurred - in their specific details - insofar as they have been described by the other party.

Because it's legal speak that sets up the defence that the events did occur, but the way the people in question interpreted them was wrong.

Denying the events outright says the people making the allegations are lying, and those situations never happened. So something like the Sim card removal, or them rocking up to move a player out of his partners home would be in dispute.

But they are not. Clarkson is only denying how those events occurred and why.

It should be obvious, I would have thought.

 

[Slartibartfast]

What?

I want Jackson hanged?

Where have I ever said anything like that?

Hahaha, there has not been one post where you have not ignored the article and yet still shit canned Jackson.

 

[sr36]

Oh that's what happens in a normal good journalistic process, Rusty just didn't do that is all.

Tbh I think the issue is that Jackson operates as freelance print journalists for a broadcaster.

He has licence to go off and pursue his ideas, and he comes back with the finished product and they go plonk and run it as a one and done.

If we was working at a newspaper, there'd be a number of people involved in the process, and a whole variety of stages, and he'd have editors at various levels directing him where to take the story, which bits he needs to stand up etc.

The story would look very very different.

As it is, these are Rusty's personal projects, his passion he gets paid for. And by and large he's good at.

Until now.

I also don't care whether you believe I've worked as a journalist or not.

Now you're portraying the ABC as Jackson's personal blog? Where are you going to next to defend your rubbish claims. Ridiculous claim to defend ridiculous claim to defend ridiculous claim.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I know how media law works.

I also find it interesting that Jackson is a print journalist at a broadcaster.

Tell us about you media experience, I actually don’t believe it. You seem unable to read an article objectively.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I genuinely don't understand what you're driving at.

The Egan report is a few bits of paper with some anonymous allegations written on them.

That's all, nothing more or less.

It isn't a formal document of any sort.

The allegations in the report and the article are very similar.
You seem to want to ignore this fact.

 

[Ricketz]

You're talking about something you have no idea about.

Look I'm not trying to make light of those players and partner's experiences at hawthorn but you are comparing those experiences to people who were taken from their families as children, in some cases never to see them again and tortured and abused. Torturing and abusing children and trying to break them psychologically... even now it makes me angry and I never experienced it.

It wasn't done with the "best of intentions" either, despite what revisionist people who are trying to make light of it say.

You're minimising of what those people who died, sometimes alone and in pain, went thru. You might not realise that but you are.

Even now kids that are removed from indigenous families don't have to deal with that (and I don't endorse that removal either, unless its extremely bad situations and those kids stay with extended family who care for them.)

I'm not minimising anything about their experience - I haven't even commented on their experience.

This is the comment that I find disturbing - because it is you using the experience of your dead friends to minimise the experience of the people involved in this situation:

I have friends who are dead because they couldn't reconcile being members of the stolen generation. I am struggling to see how you can liken those accusations to what they went thru.

I didn't compare their experiences. You did. And you used them to make your argument, which I took offence to. I don't think that is ever reasonable - because as much as you like to think you knew them you don't know what their opinions would have been, and they can't approve or deny what you are saying on their behalf.

Anyway, I am not going to explain it any more - if you don't get why it is wrong, you never will.

 

[11kgm]

The news pretty much confirmed this will be covered up

 

[blackshadow]

Tell us about you media experience, I actually don’t believe it. You seem unable to read an article objectively.

As I said none so blind as those who don’t want to see.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Because it's legal speak that sets up the defence that the events did occur, but the way the people in question interpreted them was wrong.

Denying the events outright says the people making the allegations are lying, and those situations never happened. So something like the Sim card removal, or them rocking up to move a player out of his partners home would be in dispute.

But they are not. Clarkson is only denying how those events occurred and why.

It should be obvious, I would have thought.

No it’s not obvious because you’re making it up. You’re creating a false dichotomy between, on one hand, complete denial the events happened and, on the other hand, acceptance that “the events” happened.

In reality, the acceptance is only that something happened which both parties can make reference to. You have claimed that the only thing in dispute is the “why” and “how” of what happened, not the “what”. That’s simply not true. The precise details of the “what” are very much in dispute, even if the lawyers acknowledge that something has happened.

 

[Ricketz]

You, at least, are holding a discussion, although I would propose to you that coincidental fallout and a racist outcome are not equals. To be fair my first profession was one where being told by a higher up that your choice of potential spouse would damage your career was hardly unusual, so my point of view is different.

You do, however, touch on the point that DOES get my panties in a bunch. Unemployment, poverty, poor education outcomes, violence within the community. The underlying problems that a million virtue signallers sitting at their keyboards for a lifetime with their outrage meters spinning out of control will do ZERO to improve. But at least they'll feel all warm about themselves.

Many of them will call the preceeding sentence a racist comment. Mere mention of these problems is forbidden. Perhaps they should get off their arses and out of mum's spare room and get out there on the ground.

And to be clear, by on the ground I do not mean marching up and down metropolitan streets screeching slogans borrowed from a culture and racial divide massively different to our own. Which serves only to produce masses of noise and drown out conversation of the reality.

I have been out there on the ground, and it is confronting. Very confronting. And daunting. Seemingly impossible.

Ah, the old virtue signalling keyboard warrior defence.

Of course, you can't possibly know what any of these posters contributions in the real world are, but it helps you feel justified in your dismissal of any claims they make - even though it has no basis in reality.

See it used all the time on Sky and in the Murdoch papers - you wouldn't be a subscriber would you?

 

[Ricketz]

No it’s not obvious because you’re making it up. You’re creating a false dichotomy between, on one hand, complete denial the events happened and, on the other hand, acceptance that “the events” happened.

In reality, the acceptance is only that something happened which both parties can make reference to. You have claimed that the only thing in dispute is the “why” and “how” of what happened, not the “what”. That’s simply not true. The precise details of the “what” are very much in dispute, even if the lawyers acknowledge that something has happened.

Sorry mate, I am not making anything up. I have pointed out clearly where Clarkson accepted the "matters discussed".

Anyway, I am pretty confident I will be proven right come December, and you will be still wriggling around struggling with the English language.

 

[Laphroaig]

Ah, the old virtue signalling keyboard warrior defence.

Of course, you can't possibly know what any of these posters contributions in the real world are, but it helps you feel justified in your dismissal of any claims they make - even though it has no basis in reality.

See it used all the time on Sky and in the Murdoch papers - you wouldn't be a subscriber would you?

Can't play the ball, invent something about the man and play that instead.

I have the greatest respect for ANYONE who rolls their sleeves up and has a go.

I have my doubts that you are among them.

 

[the big lebowski]

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts.

• Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.
• The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
• Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).
• It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

Not a surprise. I had an argument with a family friend about this topic. He was adamant that indigenous people died at a higher rate than non indigenous people in jail.

I presented him with facts, and he didn’t want to talk about it anymore.

 

[Ricketz]

He does refer to them as his stories…

Some random twitter hero called Richard S is now the arbiter of what a journalist should or should not do?

No wonder you are so confused.

There is no rule that says a journalist can't treat the subjects of their story with care and compassion.

 

[Ricketz]

Can't play the ball, invent something about the man and play that instead.

I have the greatest respect for ANYONE who rolls their sleeves up and has a go.

I have my doubts that you are among them.

Didn't you bring up the virtue signalling keyboard warrior thing?

At least I had evidence for my assessment of the man.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Sorry mate, I am not making anything up. I have pointed out clearly where Clarkson accepted the "matters discussed".

Anyway, I am pretty confident I will be proven right come December, and you will be still wriggling around struggling with the English language.

His literal words in his statement were, “I did not behave in the manner claimed… my clear memory of the matters reported is very different”.

I hope you’re a troll, because if you 100% believe what you’re typing that’s a worry

 

[Ricketz]

His literal words in his statement were, “I did not behave in the manner claimed… my clear memory of the matters reported is very different”.

I hope you’re a troll, because if you 100% believe what you’re typing that’s a worry

Oh my goodness, you have literally quoted him saying he has a clear memory of the matters reported.

Unbelievable.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Oh my goodness, you have literally quoted him saying he has a clear memory of the matters reported.

Unbelievable.

Honestly can’t tell if you’re just taking the piss now.

You conveniently left out that his comment, regarding the matters reported, was that he remembers them “differently”, ie that they did not happen as reported.

 

[Nickoo]

All possible.

But given the lack of other victims and witnesses emerging, it is far more likely these were very isolated incidents.

And even more likely that what happened is different from how it was presented in Jackson's article. Or more accurately, there's other very legitimate reads too.

As I've said to ferball and Yolngu in my discussions with them, I understand that Clarkson and Fagan would have come across - middle aged white men in uniforms - like the horrific cops and teachers and social workers who had bullied and traumatised these young people and their families for generations. They were also making traumatic decisions for ANY players re their future on the list with all that means for income and status.

But the lack if follow up, the lack of other people coming forward, the lack of any substance being added to Jackson's story beyond two fairly flat Caro articles - and you KNOW she'd love to bring down Clarkson, especially at North - that's telling too.

As is Jackson's ugly outbursr on social media last week. And so is Brisbane and North's willingness to back in Fagan and Clarkson, at least until the investigation is done.

These are both clubs with proud indigenous histories and lots of indigenous players on their current lists. If they were hearing there's a really big fire under all this smoke, they wouldn't be doing that

When Jackson's story dropped I thought it was going to be the first of a series and that there'd be no way Clarkson and Fagan could or should coach again.

But there has been no follow up by Jackson or others. As it stands the allegations, very serious as they are, are just that.

And they're anonymous allegations, many of which are second hand, coming years after the event, contained in a report that was never meant to be made public.

You have to look at this situation in its entirety.

Remember the Essendon doping situation - there was a continual drip feed of new information. Lots of journalists, including the best in the country, working on it.

That just hasn't happened here, despite it being potentially such a huge story.

In fact, the direction of travel as it were has been away from Jackson's initial bombshell.

Very well said.


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