NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Ricketz]

Not a surprise. I had an argument with a family friend about this topic. He was adamant that indigenous people died at a higher rate than non indigenous people in jail.

I presented him with facts, and he didn’t want to talk about it anymore.

I bet you felt pretty chuffed about winning that one?

"The royal commission found Aboriginal people do not die at a greater overall rate than non-Indigenous people in custody.

However, it makes an important distinction, saying Aboriginal people die in custody at a significant rate comparable to their proportion of the whole population.

The report goes on to say this occurs not because Aboriginal people in custody are more likely to die, but because they are incarcerated more frequently."

Redirect Notice

Good job mate.

 

[Nickoo]

You, at least, are holding a discussion, although I would propose to you that coincidental fallout and a racist outcome are not equals. To be fair my first profession was one where being told by a higher up that your choice of potential spouse would damage your career was hardly unusual, so my point of view is different.

You do, however, touch on the point that DOES get my panties in a bunch. Unemployment, poverty, poor education outcomes, violence within the community. The underlying problems that a million virtue signallers sitting at their keyboards for a lifetime with their outrage meters spinning out of control will do ZERO to improve. But at least they'll feel all warm about themselves.

Many of them will call the preceeding sentence a racist comment. Mere mention of these problems is forbidden. Perhaps they should get off their arses and out of mum's spare room and get out there on the ground.

And to be clear, by on the ground I do not mean marching up and down metropolitan streets screeching slogans borrowed from a culture and racial divide massively different to our own. Which serves only to produce masses of noise and drown out conversation of the reality.

I have been out there on the ground, and it is confronting. Very confronting. And daunting. Seemingly impossible.

Well said also.


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[Ricketz]

Honestly can’t tell if you’re just taking the piss now.

You conveniently left out that his comment, regarding the matters reported, was that he remembers them “differently”, ie that they did not happen as reported.

I know you can't because you clearly struggle with reading comprehension. Behaviour is a character trait. A matter is an event.

Anyway, I am not your year 7 english teacher, so I will leave it at that.

 

[Nickoo]

Some clubs quite openly recruit from private schools as seemingly a policy, and don't recruit indigenous players.

If the Bulldogs didn't have JUH land in their lap via an Academy system that doesn't exist any more, they may as well be the APS Bulldogs.

The Swans very rarely draft indigenous players and are all about the Charlie Horsewater types. One footy media type put it to me that the Swans "No Dickheads" policy is a nice way of saying "white private school kids only if we have to draft outside our Academy".

Yes well Cyril Rioli went to a private school.


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[the big lebowski]

I bet you felt pretty chuffed about winning that one?

"The royal commission found Aboriginal people do not die at a greater overall rate than non-Indigenous people in custody.

However, it makes an important distinction, saying Aboriginal people die in custody at a significant rate comparable to their proportion of the whole population.

The report goes on to say this occurs not because Aboriginal people in custody are more likely to die, but because they are incarcerated more frequently."

Redirect Notice

Good job mate.

Most people don’t understand the fact you’re more likely to die in jail if you’re white than indigenous.

Probably because the media portray the exact opposite.

 

[Nickoo]

Please tell me how these people change these outcomes by 'being on the ground'. What can they do to change the problems Aboriginal people encounter? How can they make a difference? I am interested about your own 'on the ground' experience with Aboriginal people. A lot of problems have been created by people being on the ground.

Get onto Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine’s sites they have allot of specific information from communities such Yuendumu where last week Jacinta’s grandmother had her neck slashed under the direction of an elder.


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[Tas]

I've been on the bench seat, watching from afar...

Gil's comments,


This bolded comment actually made me feel sick, no wonder the accuser's, don't want the AFL to be part of it...
That comment alone makes the boy's club, sweeping under the table, fake review and already made up their mind, comments seriously plausible...

The North supporters blind support for a guy that has never even coached a game for your club are encroaching on Essendon supporter levels...

AFL releases terms of reference for Hawks probe, reveals end date

The independent panel investigating historical allegations of racism at Hawthorn intends to complete its work this year

www.afl.com.au

Like everyone else, we have no idea what happened at Hawthorn. Look Clarkson was a prick, particularly when he was younger, you just have to see how he treated Mitchell. Did he do what he has been accused of? He has denied it.

We need the investigation to determine what went down and who said and did what.

He will be our coach and i am not so much cheering him on but would prefer not to have to deal with trying to replace him. It would be a significant setback for my club.

That being said, if he is guilty of something horrific then he should be held to account. But, he has said he didn't do what he was accused of and people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

I think those who white knight are as deranged as those with the torch and pitchforks. You seem to be overly invested in this, you should probably take a step back and let it play out before getting on the soapbox.

 

[RichLeMonde]

I know you can't because you clearly struggle with reading comprehension. Behaviour is a character trait. A matter is an event.

Anyway, I am not your year 7 english teacher, so I will leave it at that.

Behaviour is not a character trait. Behaviour is the actions that one has undertaken. If someone says (as Clarkson did) “I did not behave in the manner described”, he is not saying, “my character traits are good, not bad”, he is saying “I did not enact the actions and words that have been attributed to me”.

A matter, or event, is to a pretty large extent determined by how all of the relevant actors behaved - ie what they said and did.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts.

• Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.
• The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
• Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).
• It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

I'm sorry but this is just straight up wrong and pretty disgusting considering how clear the facts are. Indigenous Australians are the most incarcerated people in the world. Also, Indigenous prisoners are 1.26 times more likely to die in prison than non-Indigenous prisoners according to the Australian Human Rights Commission.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I will take this question at face value. Which may be courageous, but here we go.

I strongly believe in addressing socio economic, community violence and education issues. It will take a long time. But (among other things) young people with low socio economic status, poor education and exposure to violence are far more likely to end up making contact with the criminal justice system. And it is a near universal truth that once a person has made contact with the criminal justice system, the system has a habit of reaching out and finding them. Repeatedly.

My experience? I had a business that conducted demographic research, community analysis and fund seeking for projects not funded by government. My last contract was a 6 month study of what was possibly the worst public housing estate in Victoria. If not the worst, certainly on the short list. Guess which societal group was dumped there? I never submitted my invoice. The business had been good to me and it felt right to return something.

Being there was massively confronting, particularly in seeing the young people already nearly lost to a decent life. Not at school, often intoxicated in one way or another. We ended up in the drive to school group, and the feed before school group, and the scrounge sports equipment group. We managed to have the community house restructured to provide homework space and extra tutoring. With incentives to get the kids in there after school. A full size basketball court, with lights (public housing areas only get a half court on the government dollar).

Since then I was enrolled in a program to spend 3 months a year in The Territory as a volunteer teacher's aid. Often that means being the teacher in reality. That one scuppered by COVID before I got there, but we hope to see it reinstated in 2023.

That's what I mean by on the ground. From the ground up. Find ways to at least begin to break the cycle and the younger generation is where the higher rewards are.

One person - makes bugger all difference. 100 people, different story. 1000 people, now we're talking. Measures like this are open to an aweful lot of people. Why not forget about going to Ibud this year to take photos of yourself. Feed a kid breakfast and drive them to school instead.

The question should most definitely be taken at face value as my intention was not to be critical but rather to seek knowledge. Firstly, one person or a small group of people can make a difference. I can personally tell you that through my own experience. It can be life changing. Obviously change to education levels, violence, poverty levels, employment levels and housing standards cannot be changed by individuals, but they can make a difference to a person's life. The reason I question is that so many problems in Aboriginal communities have been introduced from outside. Providing alcohol and tobacco for wages, bringing Kava into Aboriginal lives and providing housing that was not only culturally irrelevant but also have been left to be dilapidated without repair or care. It is just another box ticked. Thank you for the work you do with Aboriginal people. Education is the key but finding the right education is what is the problem. Is it the Aunty Miriam Rose walking in two worlds or is it a cultural immersion of connection to country? Just out of interest when you were in NT what country were you working in? Thanks, and have a great day.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Get onto Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine’s sites they have allot of specific information from communities such Yuendumu where last week Jacinta’s grandmother had her neck slashed under the direction of an elder.


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Thanks for the info. I know the problems that are encountered I was just wondering what people can do to support on the ground.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts.

• Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.
• The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
• Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).
• It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

The treatment of Aboriginal people in custody and those that are incarcerated is one of the great shames of our country. Get away from raw doctored statistics and listen to people. Hear their stories. Aboriginal deaths and injury in police stations, holding rooms and prisons is something we should be ashamed of.

 

[Ricketz]

Most people don’t understand the fact you’re more likely to die in jail if you’re white than indigenous.

Probably because the media portray the exact opposite.

That link I posted also talks about the media role and how they misrepresent it.

 

[Satan]

Yes well Cyril Rioli went to a private school.


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[Laphroaig]

The question should most definitely be taken at face value as my intention was not to be critical but rather to seek knowledge. Firstly, one person or a small group of people can make a difference. I can personally tell you that through my own experience. It can be life changing. Obviously change to education levels, violence, poverty levels, employment levels and housing standards cannot be changed by individuals, but they can make a difference to a person's life. The reason I question is that so many problems in Aboriginal communities have been introduced from outside. Providing alcohol and tobacco for wages, bringing Kava into Aboriginal lives and providing housing that was not only culturally irrelevant but also have been left to be dilapidated without repair or care. It is just another box ticked. Thank you for the work you do with Aboriginal people. Education is the key but finding the right education is what is the problem. Is it the Aunty Miriam Rose walking in two worlds or is it a cultural immersion of connection to country? Just out of interest when you were in NT what country were you working in? Thanks, and have a great day.

I may have been unclear.

I didn't make it to the NT because the the teaching aid program was chopped by the organisation running it soon after I put my name forward, due to COVID travel restrictions and uncertainty as to when it could resume.

I have friends who were doing it for more than ten years, and they inform me that there is hope that it will resume in 2023. If so, I will be going. I can ask them which country they worked in, in the past, and let you know more detail if you wish.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Get onto Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine’s sites they have allot of specific information from communities such Yuendumu where last week Jacinta’s grandmother had her neck slashed under the direction of an elder.


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You could say that it was Anglo based Australian culture or tradition to strap or cane students at School for minor behavioral issues.
We stopped doing that, not all that long ago, probably more recent than the stolen generation.

But slashing necks is ok because tradition.

 

[gouki88]

Get onto Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine’s sites


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No

 

[the big lebowski]

I'm sorry but this is just straight up wrong and pretty disgusting considering how clear the facts are. Indigenous Australians are the most incarcerated people in the world. Also, Indigenous prisoners are 1.26 times more likely to die in prison than non-Indigenous prisoners according to the Australian Human Rights Commission.

And now back to reality

“In 2018-19, 18% of all deaths in prison custody were of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Aboriginal people died at a rate of 0.13 per 100 prisoners, compared to a death rate of 0.21 per 100 prisoners for the total prison population.”

 

[South of the Yarra]

You could say that it was Anglo based Australian culture or tradition to strap or cane students at School for minor behavioral issues.
We stopped doing that, not all that long ago, probably more recent than the stolen generation.

But slashing necks is ok because tradition.

Are we comparing strapping and caning kids in school to the stolen generation?

 

[Ricketz]

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts

You might want to read the article I just posted.

[*]Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.

Percentage of general population who identify as indigenous - 3.8%

Percentage of incarcerated population who identify as indigenous - 30%

It's not a racism problem?

[*]The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
[*]Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).

Wrong. Read the article I posted. These are simply false claims.

[*]It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Queensland, WA and NT are currently dealing with inquiries that have found otherwise. Again, your comment is false.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

Please post the data here.

 

[Laphroaig]

I'm sorry but this is just straight up wrong and pretty disgusting considering how clear the facts are. Indigenous Australians are the most incarcerated people in the world. Also, Indigenous prisoners are 1.26 times more likely to die in prison than non-Indigenous prisoners according to the Australian Human Rights Commission.

No. For a single 5 year period in the 1990s the figure of 1.26 applied. I am not able to explain that anomoly.

At the time Muirhead did his Commission the proportional numbers were near identical and have been for most of the period since. In recent years the Indigenous proportion of deaths in custody has fallen sharply to the figure of 15%, versus 30% of prison population. I am unable to put forward reasons for that fall either.

The bold part, again, is the important part, and the part that needs effort applied to it. Until people stop marching around the streets chanting murders in custody, that won't happen.

Trust me. Until recently I analysed demographic data, including Indigenous comparisons in almost every aspect of life, for a living.

If you don't want to trust me, you can find the most recent data from the Australian Crime commission here:

Deaths in custody in Australia 2019-20

The National Deaths in Custody Program has monitored the extent and nature of deaths occurring in prison, police custody and youth detention in Australia since 1980. In 2019-20 there were 113 deaths in custody. This report contains detailed information on these deaths and compares the findings...

apo.org.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Are we comparing strapping and caning kids in school to the stolen generation?

If by we you mean me. No i didn't. I was clearly and obviously comparing the time frame.

If by we, you mean you, i have no ****ing idea.

Trying to smear someone with the racist tag are "we"?

 

[Laphroaig]

Percentage of general population who identify as indigenous - 3.8%

Percentage of incarcerated population who identify as indigenous - 30%

Have you failed to notice that I have highlighted this as the area that needs to be focused on at least 5 times today?

Even using bold type to make it clear?

 

[Ricketz]

Get onto Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine’s sites they have allot of specific information from communities such Yuendumu where last week Jacinta’s grandmother had her neck slashed under the direction of an elder.


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I'm sorry, but please tell the truth when you post stories like this. She didn't have her throat slashed, she was beaten. It wasn't directed by elders, it was a younger woman.

The violence in some communities is a problem, but it doesn't help anyone when you flavour it to suit your own agenda.

 

[Ricketz]

Have you failed to notice that I have highlighted this as the area that needs to be focused on at least 5 times today?

Even using bold type to make it clear?

No, not at all. I also noticed you prior and subsequently saying it wasn't a racism problem. The evidence clearly shows it is.