Review Round 6, 2023 - GWS vs. Brisbane Lions

[Mr Ripper]

Both those situations suck for GWS. I hope the guy Coleman cleaned up was ok, think he damaged his knee. Lucky he didn't get reviewed for that, was a bit of a dog act I really didn't like to see

ACL

 

[Elixuh]

Been crying all afternoon but it’s ok I’m fine

I never believed that you were the biggest victim on this site, but now I do.

 

[BRAB]

I never believed that you were the biggest victim on this site, but now I do.

The extent by which I am persecuted is honestly shocking

 

[Elixuh]

The extent by which I am persecuted is honestly shocking

I think its your avatar and the rorts (and things of that nature) which are afforded to us by our academy.

 

[Ceebee]

I feel like it was a good game and a good win? One win behind us prior to yesterday, and they haven't lost a match by more than 20 points yet this season? 91.6 is a pretty good percentage for a team sitting on 2-4.

Some of youse guys can't see beyond the nose that you've cutt off of your own faces I reckon. Let the guys settle into the season and enjoy a win or two for frigs sake. Good lordt.

Had a couple of reds Haso , your spelling is a bit off tonight
Or is it a follow on from your preview ?

 

[Dalions]

Both those situations suck for GWS. I hope the guy Coleman cleaned up was ok, think he damaged his knee. Lucky he didn't get reviewed for that, was a bit of a dog act I really didn't like to see

He has done his ACL

 

[luthor]

Looks like Ward has copped a week for the sling on Neale.
And poor old Sam Taylor out for 10 with a Hammy.

I like Ward but the insinuation that Lachie somehow staged or "contributed" to the sling tackle are ridiculous.

Lachie has been belted from pillar to post over the years, gets little from the umps, never complains or whinges and is as straight and fair a player as I have ever seen play the game.

Yet there is this theory going around that he gamed the system.

Oh sure.

He went "limp"with the devious intention of getting Ward to slam his head into the turf

Give me a break

 

[Saucery]

Brilliant game had everything.

An opponent who kept on coming regardless ('Cool Hand Luke' style).

Charlies insane, intentional chip (all miracles need luck) goal to make 7 total!

But mostly winning well even though we didn't play well, except in patches.

Top four sides win ugly if they have to but they still win.

There was a lot of getting to know each other stuff going on out there, inevitable when a quarter your 22 are new from the previous season.

So much talent, can't wait for them all to click.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

He went limp to win a free kick. Which he did.

 

[Dalions]

He went limp to win a free kick. Which he did.

He had his legs and arms pinned, which gave the impression he went limp.

 

[Viceregal]

Moving from 'stuggle to break the tackle' to 'ok I'm caught' is certainly a relaxation in effort ... unfortuntately he stopped and Ward didn't which made it worse but even if Neale had been in active mode he would still have hit the deck from the twist/dump applied to him.

 

[Tom14]

I like Ward but the insinuation that Lachie somehow staged or "contributed" to the sling tackle are ridiculous.

Lachie has been belted from pillar to post over the years, gets little from the umps, never complains or whinges and is as straight and fair a player as I have ever seen play the game.

Yet there is this theory going around that he gamed the system.

Oh sure.

He went "limp"with the devious intention of getting Ward to slam his head into the turf

Give me a break

He went 'limp' in that he made absolutely no effort to dispose of the ball - which made sense, there was less than 30 seconds left in the quarter and he didn't want to give them the ball easily. Worst case scenario he gets done for holding the ball but 15 seconds run off by the time the Giants player gets the footy and can kick. If he tries to handball there's a chance of a turnover 60m out from goal and they might score.

Ward pinned his legs and rotated it - that is a week. Rayner got a week in round 23 last year for similar reasons from memory.

 

[SizeMatters]

Was at the game. Some big question marks on ability to stop opposition transition.

Other have mentioned but honestly Hipwood and Gunston are not really attributing to much but I do think Fagan is right in saying that Gunston isn't honoured as much as he could be. A few times he was just outworking his opponent and had space in front of him to lead into pretty much the easiest uncontested mark you can get for the Lions to instead just kick it long to a pack...

Hipwood just goes missing and is is almost always in no mans land. I think he should really work his way up the ground a bit more and leave space for Gunston and Cameron to work their magic forward. Just drags is opponent into the contest and allows them to impact it (or directly or indirectly through taking leading space) and he's 5m off the ball not doing a lot. looks lost and isn't really a natural forward.

Backline I thought was beaten outside the talls. Rich had a lot of easy touches but is probably the slowest player on the list. It was really damning seeing it in the flesh just how off the pace he is. I lost count the amount of times his opponent got away from him or he just couldn't get back quick enough to cover space or another opponent. Killed us when the Lions turned it over and seeing them running through hard and just brushing past Rich for one twos or creating +1s inside 50. Starc is in a form slump too. Was well beaten and hasn't really played that well this year.

Cameron, Joe, Payne, Dunkley and Clugga were best on. Should have been a 40 point win but lapses in the game where Giants got 2 or 3 goals cost the club a nice percentage boost.

 

[Haso]

Had a couple of reds Haso , your spelling is a bit off tonight
Or is it a follow on from your preview ?

It's a rich tapestry ceebs

 

[Grasshopper17]

An intriguing game. I need to break up my thoughts by department.

Forwards

Super effort by Charlie. Liked Joe's game. Couldn't believe Taylor was given the role to play on him basically the role time he was playing forward, so it was absolutely the right move to get him up the ground. Even better was the fact we were able to use him in transition cos Taylor wasn't mobile enough to go with him. Liked Hipwood's game contrary to a lot of views.

Gunston's efforts when the ball hits the ground is a concern. Queen Mary turning circle among other things. Come on Jack prove me wrong.

Also 2-7 in the last quarter after 5-7 last week. 1-3 vs the Dogs and 1-4 vs Melbourne. Is it fatigue? Why does this not happen down the other end? My main concern is that nobody's gonna be too bothered about this. Until it costs us a win. Which could be in a knockout final.

Defence

Hands were full pretty much all day/night. Payne superb, Andrews pretty good, Joyce... I'm not going here again but with Gardiner out for a while longer, it's a pity Tommy Fullarton is now exclusively a forward by the look. That's about as tactful as I can get for Darragh. Come on lad get together with Jack and prove me wrong.

Great run from Conor and defensive intent from Kiddy. Coleman seems to have taken to the whole "intercept pressure" game like a duck to water. Which leads me to the...

Midfield

I need to preface this by saying I was behind the goals at our cheer squad end (the end we kicked to in the last quarter). I sat as far back/up as I could, but at Manuka that's not very high, so my view of the whole ground was really pretty average. So take my thoughts with however many grains of salt as you like.

Anyhoo, did it look to anyone else like our entire midfield just decided to completely abandon our new and improved game plan of "sit back and intercept their handball chains, or make them go around us"? It looked like we went back to our old style tried and not-all-that-trusted "hey everybody let's all dive in for the ball and not worry about it if it squirts out of the area".

TV people use stats to tell them what the story should be... I try to use them in the reverse way, ie "this is the story in my head, do the numbers match up with what I'm thinking or am I full of it?"

I know a large part of it is game plan related, but I wonder much concern there is with our coaching staff in respect to the weight uncontested disposals we tend to concede. Apart from the game against North (+31), we've lost every other uncontested concession count for a total of -312 for the other 5 games.

It puts a lot of pressure on our defenders because opponents are able to move the ball down the field to get the ball deeper into our defensive 50. GWS were able to string some uncontested chains together which led to goals in quick succession during the game.

Anyway I've had a look after the game and we've lost uncontested ball by NINETY FOUR. Now, JasRulz63 is right, we have lost this stat in other games. But this discrepancy is creeping into Round 1 v Port areas. We got absolutely thumped, and the more I think about it, the creeping sense of unease I had right throughout the last 3 quarters was because the game reminded me so much of so many games in 2022. Leave their midfield to basically do as they please, and rely on our defence or their own skill errors to bail us out.

The biggest problem when we all go in for the ball like this is it creates a domino effect. The next bloke has to come off his man to challenge the guy who's running with the ball, and it cascades right the way down the field. No wonder they got so many goals from our front half.

But anyway I can whinge all I want, but I'm more interested in understanding WHY we decided to move away from what looked to be working very successfully in the last fortnight.

Is it:

1. Base (most likely) case

Our mids are all natural ball winners, and that's their standard MO... See ball, get ball. That's not just how they've been trained here under Fagan, it's basically how they've played footy their whole lives, remembering most of them would have been the best player in their teams at youth level. So it's hard to undo all that "muscle memory" at the flick of a switch.

If this is it, the new method(s) need to be continually and consistently drilled, over and over again at training, till they become second nature.

2. Pessimistic case

3KZ is Football, if you don't wish to know the score, please look away now. Jarryd Lyons has been highly regarded as somewhat of an organiser, maybe even a pseudo coach, of our midfield. But he wasn't in the senior setup until last week. Is it possible that in his absence the coaches and players in the senior team devised new methods and plans that he wasn't aware of? And when he came back into the fold he's gone back to enforcing those old methods on the lads by sheer will and personality and footy IQ?

If this is the case he needs to be told to get out of it! The 2023 model looks better and works better.

(I don't think this is the case by the way. I'd imagine our VFL team is drilled to play more or less the same as the senior team.)

3. Optimistic case

This is by far my favourite. I don't think it's what's happening but my word it would be amazing if it were, and absolute 864D chess by Fages and Cam Bruce.

We rolled out the "intercept handball" model for the Collingwood game, cos we were 1-2 and "well we really need a win here". We didn't really want to cos you know, Easter Thursday and national TV audience etc, but "hopefully people will think it was just a ploy to beat Collingwood and will largely ignore it beyond that".

Then we thought "hmmmm that worked really well. We can probably get away with it against North, cos it's the 1pm Saturday game out in The Stix and nobody will be watching anyway". It's worked a treat there as well, everyone's blamed North's defence and Fages got out of the presser without any questions about it.

So at this stage he's like the cat that got the cream. So now we're shelving the whole strategy and reverting to our somewhat ugly method of winning games from last season, hoping to keep ticking along in the background with nobody noticing us. And then next time we really need a win, (hopefully not till finals!) we'll bring back out this nuclear weapon again.

I really don't think this is the case, but I'd be mighty impressed if it was. As well as a touch disappointed, because I was just getting a taste of the good stuff!

Anyway I'd be interested to know if anyone else thought Saturday's game felt like 2022 all over again. To me, none of our other games (since Round 1) have felt anything like last year, but this one did. It was eerie in that way.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I was at work so only watched bits and pieces during the game, but one part I did see was McCluggage running straight at the goal and deciding to square it instead.

It was like watching Ben Simmons pass up that dunk in the 2021 NBA Playoffs. Confidence looks completely shot.

Agreed. Strange because he kicked such a lovely goal on the run last Saturday. I was really hoping that would kick start his season from a confidence perspective. He strikes me as a bit of a thinker, and sometimes thinkers can, well, overthink things. Maybe he's doing a bit of that at the moment.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Agree. It happened a few times last week across the league. Same as players leading with the head for high contact, they are incredibly smart at drawing frees - it’s my opinion some players (not everytime) are starting to go limp when tackled to increase chance they fall directly to the ground with momentum.

I watched the replay of the Neale tackle and he didn’t flex or fight at all, I think it was in part a technique to draw a free that will become part of the game going forth amidst this dangerous tackle crackdown.

GWS player still responsible and will likely get a week, there are other ways to tackle.

Neale accepted the tackle, there is no onus on him to fight the tackle.

Actually, there is. If the ball carrier has no prior opportunity he still must make a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball.

I've noticed so many more players this year using the Tom Hickey ruckman-style defence of simply submitting in the tackle, pretending they're pinned and can't possibly do anything to dispose. Umpires are falling for it and calling for ball ups.

Now these sling tackles are coming into play tho also and it means now the ball carrier might also get a free kick for that. So yet another reason to submit in the tackle.

So much for "genuine attempt".

It all just points to prior opportunity needing to get in the bin. Quickly.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Did you enjoy the Toyo Tires giant tire race?

Truly thrilling stuff I thought

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I must say I did enjoy this Great come from behind victory! Real tortoise and hare stuff.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Was pleased we gave GWS their biggest defeat this year, well done everyone. That’s my plus, my minus is that I would likes to develop a shut down plan otherwise I can see us losing a close game when the opposition throws everything at us in a s**t or bust last five minuets

The most goals we conceded in a row last night was 3

The most goals we've conceded in a row since Round 2 has been 3.

We were able to steady well after the Dogs hit us between the eyes early in Q2 in Round 3. Collingwood came hard at us in the last quarter and a half but only managed consecutive goals once for all their huffing and puffing.

And yeah on Saturday, the Giants kicked 2 lots of 3 but the first lot of 3 was answered by us kicking 2 of our own, and the second lot of 3 was interspersed with us kicking about a million behinds, several of which should have been goals.

So yeah this is an impressive feature we've been able to build into our game. Not sure how much of it is strategic and how much is simply maturity, but it's promising.

 

[M Malice]

He went limp to win a free kick. Which he did.

No biological male ever goes limp deliberately.

 

[trikster]

No biological male ever goes limp deliberately.

FACTS

 

[Elixuh]

Actually, there is. If the ball carrier has no prior opportunity he still must make a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball.

I've noticed so many more players this year using the Tom Hickey ruckman-style defence of simply submitting in the tackle, pretending they're pinned and can't possibly do anything to dispose. Umpires are falling for it and calling for ball ups.

Now these sling tackles are coming into play tho also and it means now the ball carrier might also get a free kick for that. So yet another reason to submit in the tackle.

So much for "genuine attempt".

It all just points to prior opportunity needing to get in the bin. Quickly.

You know what I mean re onus in this instance. That doesn’t create an onus on the ball carrier to fight the tackle, it just provides a consequence for not fighting the tackle.

Players will routinely accept a HTB decision against them so that the ball doesn’t spill out and the oppo are given an opportunity to move the ball quickly before the defence can setup (also on the off chance the ump doesn’t call htb).

We were well up in the game looking to slow the play down. Neale accepted the tackle which he is entitled to do.

 

[irel]

It's ingrained into the "Ozzy culcha." Blame the victim, not the perpetrator.

 

[irel]

Neale made him do it.
He wanted to have his head slammed into the turf.

 

[irel]

See what you made me do.