List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[StCicatriz]

So I asked to name one trade that was seen to be difficult and you couldn't, says it all really.

Lol you've completely avoided the question.

Not sure why you've been triggered.

 

[St Neil]

Marshall into Duursma?

No thanks.

I don’t see it with Duursma.

 

[akaifu]

Prefer MacKenzie over Duursma

 

[joydivision22]

The impact that big ton-ey has on my life is profound. I’d be less nervous meeting any celebrity

 

[crawfords cat]

Duursma - is getting another medium forward in all that important to us? Especially if it costs a first round pick that could nab a quality mid?

On the age profile thing - nothing wrong with having a bunch of 28+s around if you're contending, as Collingwood are demonstrating. That experience counts for a lot.

 

[ThomasR]

You probably wouldn't be saying the same thing if it was Macrae Steele Clark who were out for the season instead of Doug King Cordy

Carroll was injured on the weekend but we still had Clark as sub, Jones, Dow, Wilson, Trav in the twos, Windy pushed out to a wing, and guys like Nas, Sinclair, Stocker, Owens etc not getting much of a look through there. Even Boxshall only got a handful of CBAs. This is all with Pou injured as well.

There are plenty of options to cover the hypothetical loss of those three, half the forum thinks we can afford to trade Steele anyway and Clark is barely clinging onto his spot in the 23. Howard and King's roles we have found much harder to replace. Does Cordy even get picked if fit?

The balance is all wrong, Ross has said as much in his pressers about our struggles finding a contested mark, we average 3.6 fewer than our opposition, the worst in the league. With undersized forwards and Marshall unable to jump, halving a contest from a bail out kick is the best we can hope for, and really limits our options exiting defence.

A fit Howard (to move Caminiti forward) and King would no doubt help, so would Battle and Membrey, but save for an eleventh hour bid for Brodie Kemp we never put a backup plan in place, and just went and picked up yet another midfielder and a glacially slow ruckman instead. Signing TDK and Aleer would be a good start to remedy this next year

 

[boulders]

I really think we need to target another key forward. Not necessarily a walk up starter but a proven state league guy or a veteran like Hawthorne and north have done with Gunston and Darling. Just a decent fill in for King who also offers experience and coaching. I think that is far more valuable than a break glass ruckmen that we have carried for years now.

I guess the question is, who fits the criteria and is gettable?

What about that Membrey fella?

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

idk what will be worse, losing nas or tony losing his ITK status

 

[phantom13]

I think this is a really broad brush. I’ve hated every one of our list strategies from 2011 until RTB 2.0.

Maybe I’m giving Bassett too much credit, but I’m of the belief that Ross has been bought back to build the list to contend because he’s strong enough as an individual to see it through and isn’t coaching for his career. Each of Watters, Richo & Ratten had the pressure of performance to save their career.
Ross and Bassett are consistently acting in the best interests of the club long term. There’s a vision beyond their tenure’s and when you have people who are willing to do the grunt work without necessarily reaping the rewards, good things typically happen.

I’m personally being patient right now because I trust this approach. It’s the only approach that we’ve seen success from.
Invest heavily in the draft, aim to recruit high end players from other clubs and develop what you have.

Fwiw I agree and have said as much about Ross and co. And giving them the time but 2025 is another wasted year, his timeline for any form of measurable success is condensed, a poster the other day suggested extending his contract now, frankly that’s ****ing insane.

He’s got until 2027 and we shouldn’t even consider extending him until late 2027 based on where we are at (short of him winning a flag next year).

The irony being that if we did exactly this from 2019-20 (pushing out the goalposts and extending a rebuild) we may not be in the position we are in now and heading towards the pointier end of a list rebuild.

I think this is the crux of the issue and managing expectations, and we inevitably end taking on a sugar hit as opposed to the longer term vision of sustained success.

We just don’t have the list or talent to genuinely compete on a sustained basis, or make a flag tilt, and don’t recall the club ever formally telling anyone it was a “soft rebuild, so like it or not we need to develop the core of our list which doesn’t resolve itself in 2-3 years.

I don’t really agree, finishing 15th and talk of trading Marshall is rebuild.

No club ever really formally tells supporters this, we make assumptions from ladder positions and list management strategies but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone that wasn’t calling what we did a “soft rebuild” or “retool” was another one.

Ross came in 2023 so he’s had 2 and 1/2 seasons, if you wanna preach some patience with him and his current tenure that’s fair, he has a contract until 2027 and we’ve handed him the keys, it would be silly to pull the trigger on anything with him right now but we were absolutely supposed to be seeing something out of him and his list by now, not a bottom 6 finish.

With all due respect, and I’m not targeting you specifically here, but this mentally is exactly the issue. 15 years of mostly shit but this time it’ll be different… even though we’re bottom 6. If by 2027 we’re still shit we will still have true believers either backing in another 5 years of Ross or backing in some new coach for another 5 year rebuild.

It’s basically north Melbourne at this point, just accept mediocrity because we’ve got some nice kids.

 

[Klaatu]

So the first year he finished higher and every year has gone backwards from there? I obviously don't understand the term going backwards.

You stated every year, another throw the toys out of the cot moment by you.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Don't shoot the messenger but was listening to SEN today ( rarely do) and they were talking about CTE victim Hodge having a go at Riewoldt not criticising Lyon.
Lots of Hodge never critisised Clarkson, Ratten is a Hawthorn coach etc, but they brought up an interesting stat.
Andy Maher was arguing with King about the Saints off air. Apparently King pulled up stats saying we were the fastest team in the comp to get it inside 50 but one of the worst to convert. King believes if Max King was there we win another 5 games for the season.
Now just an opinion by David King but the two stats were telling. How much better did we look with a plodder like Heath bringing the ball to ground and making the defenders actually work.

I firmly subscribe that we have been severely hampered all year without our key back and key forward.

Don't know if we make finals so probably better to be shit this season and get a better pick than come 9th and have pick 13.
I am willing to give Lyon a Mulligan for this year, but if we get the same stack of injuries next preseason that derailed the past two seasons, our preparation needs to be reviewed closely. Gives us no chance or any momentum.

Agreed, though if the injury woes are not being reviewed already then somebody needs to get fired.

 

[BrutThough]

What about that Membrey fella?

Unless he grew 12cm since leaving the club, we have the undersized key forward covered all season and havent needed another one.

 

[austinnn]

Also don't have to give it away.

Quite true. Not a huge fan of the suggested trades, though I accept that our current takent ID is better than previously and as such will give benefit of doubt. Marshall clearly needs replacing, but surely we could have got by with Dodson and Heath plus a cheaper mid age ruck. I'd rather us push games into Barrat and Tauru than spend big on Aleer. But I do accept that both players have the potential to be absolute guns for the club and draw supporters to games and out of contract oppo players to SOS. If TDK is playing like he did in the first half of the year and Aleer is leaping and marking like a cross between Jason Holmes and Jeremy Howe than the LM crew should get all the plaudits.

I would have liked us to push harder for Noah Anderson back when his contract was up, or Rowell this year, but no means no I guess. I guess we're just going to have to do it the hard way and develop our own stars and cross our fingers that one/some/all of Phillipou, Wilson, Travaglia, Boxshall Garcia, Windhager, and Wanganeen Milera plus whoever we draft this year will become elite midfielders.

What worries me is our development and leadership. We haven't been good at developing players for the last 20 years and leadership has eroded (not specifically the captaincy) since Lyon's first stint. Clearly it's better than it was under our last 2 coaches, and I can see a lot of empowerment for the young group but I've got PTSD from the failures to develop so many of the promising Saints "stars" of the last 12 years that im worried that Pou, Tauru, Hall, Owens etc will eventually get infected with the same Saints virus those that came before them suffered. Nas is the closest we've got to a true break out star - if he stays. King, Higgins, Wilkie and Sinclair are the next closest in the older group but there's an asterisk next to each one. If we keep Nas and a few of the others explode in the same way, I legitimately believe we'll be one of the most exciting teams in the comp to watch and all the hard work the team is going through currently will be what helped us get there.

I think 2024 and 2025 are the years we had to have but will be worth nothing if Ross & co can't get them to take the next step.

I believe, but I've been fooled before. I still believe for the moment.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[phantom13]

So... Pending Marshall leaving (i refuse to believe hes a forward) do we basically have 4 talls at each end (2 true and 2 hybrid). TDK (who swaps out with someone for a spell) then a stack of medium sized flanker/wings?

Camma, Wilkie, Tauru, Aliir down back King, Keeler/Dodson (Roma i guess), Sharman and Owens up forward?

Is that sort of right? Horses for courses etc but broadly?

 

[stavro#4]

So... Pending Marshall leaving (i refuse to believe hes a forward) do we basically have 4 talls at each end (2 true and 2 hybrid). TDK (who swaps out with someone for a spell) then a stack of medium sized flanker/wings?

Camma, Wilkie, Tauru, Aliir down back King, Keeler/Dodson (Roma i guess), Sharman and Owens up forward?

Is that sort of right? Horses for courses etc but broadly?

Suppose so.

And then a big ? Around both Howard & Marshall.

Which I can’t see the point of trading Howard now. So retain him and potentially Tauru/Camma back forward instead of Keeler/Heath/Dodson

 

[phantom13]

Suppose so.

And then a big ? Around both Howard & Marshall.

Which I can’t see the point of trading Howard now. So retain him and potentially Tauru/Camma back forward instead of Keeler/Heath/Dodson

Camma can play ruck i guess, not sure Tauru can. Keeler remains my preferred as he can do 20% ruck work and i like him alot but that is an open spot.

Howard... Sure, hes depth at this point and we likely get **** all for him.

 

[phantom13]

If Ross plays Howard over a fit Camma (unless Camma falls off a cliff form wise) its Zak Jones

3

Zak Jones

Age

30

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.8

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

19.1

4star

K

10.6

4star

HB

8.6

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.1

4star

CL

4.9

5star

D

7.0

2star

K

2.8

1star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

CL

1.0

3star

essque to me.

 

[stavro#4]

Camma can play ruck i guess, not sure Tauru can. Keeler remains my preferred as he can do 20% ruck work and i like him alot but that is an open spot.

Howard... Sure, hes depth at this point and we likely get **** all for him.

He is still a giant defender (Howard) and Ross has repeatedly spoken about wanting to win aerial battles etc.

So if you want the likes of Aleer & Tauru flying for those high balls. You need someone to engage the opposition apes.

 

[phantom13]

He is still a giant defender (Howard) and Ross has repeatedly spoken about wanting to win aerial battles etc.

So if you want the likes of Aleer & Tauru flying for those high balls. You need someone to engage the opposition apes.

Camma does that as well as Howard ever has for us IMO. Has slightly less brain fades too.

In reality theres really only one or two genuine monster ket forwards anymore (Thilthorpe, Voss, Hogan?) and only Thilthorpe is REALLY geniunely too big for Camma and hes too big for anyone, including Dougal.

Dougs and Camma are 3cm apart in height, i cant tell weight cause Camma is listed at 85kgs and he absolutely is not 85kgs (Dougal is listed as 92kgs and im tipping thats wrong too)

 

[stavro#4]

Camma does that as well as Howard ever has for us IMO. Has slightly less brain fades too.

In reality theres really only one or two genuine monster ket forwards anymore (Thilthorpe, Voss, Hogan?) and only Thilthorpe is REALLY geniunely too big for Camma and hes too big for anyone, including Dougal.

Dougs and Camma are 3cm apart in height, i cant tell weight cause Camma is listed at 85kgs and he absolutely is not 85kgs (Dougal is listed as 92kgs and im tipping thats wrong too)

Play all 5 of them

Howard FB
Camma CHB
Wilkie on the best small that stays deep
Aleer on the third tall

Tauru just goes anywhere

 

[_Maximus_12]

So... Pending Marshall leaving (i refuse to believe hes a forward) do we basically have 4 talls at each end (2 true and 2 hybrid). TDK (who swaps out with someone for a spell) then a stack of medium sized flanker/wings?

Camma, Wilkie, Tauru, Aliir down back King, Keeler/Dodson (Roma i guess), Sharman and Owens up forward?

Is that sort of right? Horses for courses etc but broadly?

I think we finally have genuine KP depth in the VFL with any of hammer, keeler, Howard and Dodson playing twos on a semi-regular basis

 

[Saints43]

there's atleast an article in print stating we are hard to deal with.

can you provide something where we were considered easy to deal with? or are you knickers in a twist again?

I haven't read the article.
What was the question player managers were asked?
There's a big difference between:
"Which club is hardest to deal with?"
And
"Which club drives the hardest bargain?"

The headline can be anything they want.

 

[phantom13]

Play all 5 of them

Howard FB
Camma CHB
Wilkie on the best small that stays deep
Aleer on the third tall

Tauru just goes anywhere

That would be a choice

 

[jimmytigs]

Have to say though, a lot of people seem pretty comfortable losing 5 in a row and going 2-11 the last 13 weeks.

im in this camp,vs freo we were clearly the better side,ditto sydney,we took it right up to a likely grand finalist & were probably shaded by hawks,but our downfall/issue was clear by refusing to shoot for goal when inside 50(non set shots)so very fixable

more important we lost the games,because i want a top bracket mid

suns and dees tanked last year to finish below us,it seems too difficult a task to finish below essendon,so with that in mind we are non compromised pick 6,thats as low as i want to go,sailing past carlton and melbourne puts us 3 further picks back,you can have the glory of the meaningless wins,but im happy for us to show that we are very good,then lose & we seem to have found a way to do that by playing proper football in 3 quarters of the field

i want one of those guys mentioned,greeves or whoever,dont want them all gone so we are left to pick up the best boot studder or trainee receptionist,just for the sugar hit of beating essendon(decimated)richmond(playschool team)and melbourne(out tanking us AGAIN)and north

get said and dodson and carroll out there,lets have a look at them & bank pick 6(not counting nepo babies)