List Mgmt. 2025 List Management II 📃

[Aphrodite]

 

[Blue and Silver]

If Dylan Shiel is prepared to play for $400k is he worth a 2 year contract?

Our issue is ball use...

 

[thechef95]

Look like we will turn over 8 -9 players at end of season. We will be losing lots of experience too. JSOS, TDK, Gov. that’s a rebuild in my book. Don’t expect a rise up the ladder any time soon

Agree it'll be 8 minimum and some experience heading out the door... but there'll be capital coming in with SOS and TDK.

It really depends how Austin and co. use that capital + try to find some cheap experienced heads to fill the void.

We'd still have Charlie, Harry, Cripps, Weitering, Walsh, Cerra, Hewett in tact at the top end... unless more of those names are put up for trade (in which case, more capital to shift for experience).

It goes one of two ways - Austin goes hard at the draft and it's a long term vision, or Austin uses the incoming capital to get established talent and re-establish some depth for winning now.

I'm hoping the latter.

 

[Red_man2008]

If we do have a TDK compo pick, who is an outside player we could actually trade it for?

I think I’d prefer to use it on Lachy Dovaston.

 

[AT97]

If we want to Match the de dekoning bid to force a trade, do we have to prove we have the salary cap room. Just wondering in relation to McGovern situation.

 

[RPCB]

I hope we do get 8-9 changes this offseason and it’s not like every other year where we have some have some delistings but the 23 is mostly the same as the previous year. We need real changes.

 

[carlton_99]

If Dylan Shiel is prepared to play for $400k is he worth a 2 year contract?

Not for me - kicking is seriously woeful

 

[carlton_99]

Random musing - with NWM taking a massive chunk of St Kilda's cap, reports starting to filter out now that their offer to TDK is lower than reported, TDK meeting with Wright this week...I wonder if the wheel might be turning back to TDK staying at Carlton. And I wonder...if he was to stay, would that incentivise us a little more to consider trading Charlie?

Keeping TDK, and Jack likely going on a much lower contract (securing a less valuable compo pick) would probably make chasing a free agent or two more viable, compared to doing so with TDK's compo at risk of being watered down.

Keeping TDK means we don't need to go chasing a ruck, and could continue to play HOK and (if he remains) Lemmey as the 2nd KPF options alongside Harry. Not to mention Lewis Young who looks marginally more effective up forward, and Kemp expected to return (though unclear how ready he'll be).

Keeping TDK means we wouldn't be getting the top 10 compo pick, and as such would be in a somewhat precarious position in regards to matching an early bid for Dean.

Hypothetically:
- TDK stays, no compo
- JSOS goes, Band 3 compo (Pick 26)
- Acres and McGovern go to WC for Picks 32 and 50
- Charlie goes to Sydney for Picks 9, 27 and Braeden Campbell (happy to get more, but I reckon this is a somewhat reasonable compromise between the "Gulden or GTFO" and "He's old and has dodgy knees" positions)
- Rosas comes over as a cheap free agent

Draft Hand: 9, 26, 27, 32, 34, 43, 50

I'd love to move higher up the top 10, but I don't think there are going to be many clubs there looking to trade down. Maybe a live trade with GC on the night - Picks 9, 32 and 34 for Pick 6? ~450pt gain for them, we get ahead of the Dean bid?

So call it Picks 6, 26, 27, 43 and 50.

Pick 26 and 27, even if they remain where they are, will cover a bid for Dean at Pick 10. They should slip in a few spots though with early bid matching before the Dean bid.
Picks 43 and 50 will come in a fair bit with all the bid matching, and should cover a bid on Ison in the back half of the second round.
Pick 6 could get us a look at Lindsay, Schubert, Greeves, Grlj, Cumming as varied options.

OUT: Curnow, JSOS, Acres, McGovern
IN: Campbell, Dean, Ison, Rosas, Pick 6

Biggest concern probably not addressing the short term KPD stocks, with JSOS and Gov both exiting, HOF out for the year, and Dean probably needing a good bit of development time. Who knows though, there have been a few KPD's who have been able to come in and do a job in their debut year, and Dean has the advantage of having been integrated at the club for a long while already.

Also hasn't added as much in the way of raw foot-speed as I'd like, but Campbell's ball use, Jagga's instinct and class, and whatever we can get at Pick 6 maybe goes some way to off-setting that.

FB: Newman, Weitering, Haynes
HB: Campbell, Cowan, Carroll
C: Hollands, Cripps, Walsh
R: TDK, Hewett, Jagga
HF: Cottrell, O'Keeffe, Hollands*
FF: Moir, McKay, Williams
I/C: Saad, Cerra, Lord, Evans

Fringe (if they stay): Motlop, Durdin, Rosas, Binns, Fogarty, Pittonet, Lemmey, Young, Young, Wilson, Boyd, White, Cincotta
Developing: Pick 6, Campo, Campo, Dean, Charleson, Ison, Monahan, Duffy
Wait and See: Kemp
Ruled out: O'Farrell

Gettable still reporting as of yesterday TDK offer was roughly 1.8M for 8 years. Even if it's a little less than that it's still a massive gap to our offer

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Random musing - with NWM taking a massive chunk of St Kilda's cap, reports starting to filter out now that their offer to TDK is lower than reported, TDK meeting with Wright this week...I wonder if the wheel might be turning back to TDK staying at Carlton. And I wonder...if he was to stay, would that incentivise us a little more to consider trading Charlie?

Keeping TDK, and Jack likely going on a much lower contract (securing a less valuable compo pick) would probably make chasing a free agent or two more viable, compared to doing so with TDK's compo at risk of being watered down.

Keeping TDK means we don't need to go chasing a ruck, and could continue to play HOK and (if he remains) Lemmey as the 2nd KPF options alongside Harry. Not to mention Lewis Young who looks marginally more effective up forward, and Kemp expected to return (though unclear how ready he'll be).

Keeping TDK means we wouldn't be getting the top 10 compo pick, and as such would be in a somewhat precarious position in regards to matching an early bid for Dean.

Hypothetically:
- TDK stays, no compo
- JSOS goes, Band 3 compo (Pick 26)
- Acres and McGovern go to WC for Picks 32 and 50
- Charlie goes to Sydney for Picks 9, 27 and Braeden Campbell (happy to get more, but I reckon this is a somewhat reasonable compromise between the "Gulden or GTFO" and "He's old and has dodgy knees" positions)
- Rosas comes over as a cheap free agent

Draft Hand: 9, 26, 27, 32, 34, 43, 50

I'd love to move higher up the top 10, but I don't think there are going to be many clubs there looking to trade down. Maybe a live trade with GC on the night - Picks 9, 32 and 34 for Pick 6? ~450pt gain for them, we get ahead of the Dean bid?

So call it Picks 6, 26, 27, 43 and 50.

Pick 26 and 27, even if they remain where they are, will cover a bid for Dean at Pick 10. They should slip in a few spots though with early bid matching before the Dean bid.
Picks 43 and 50 will come in a fair bit with all the bid matching, and should cover a bid on Ison in the back half of the second round.
Pick 6 could get us a look at Lindsay, Schubert, Greeves, Grlj, Cumming as varied options.

OUT: Curnow, JSOS, Acres, McGovern
IN: Campbell, Dean, Ison, Rosas, Pick 6

Biggest concern probably not addressing the short term KPD stocks, with JSOS and Gov both exiting, HOF out for the year, and Dean probably needing a good bit of development time. Who knows though, there have been a few KPD's who have been able to come in and do a job in their debut year, and Dean has the advantage of having been integrated at the club for a long while already.

Also hasn't added as much in the way of raw foot-speed as I'd like, but Campbell's ball use, Jagga's instinct and class, and whatever we can get at Pick 6 maybe goes some way to off-setting that.

FB: Newman, Weitering, Haynes
HB: Campbell, Cowan, Carroll
C: Hollands, Cripps, Walsh
R: TDK, Hewett, Jagga
HF: Cottrell, O'Keeffe, Hollands*
FF: Moir, McKay, Williams
I/C: Saad, Cerra, Lord, Evans

Fringe (if they stay): Motlop, Durdin, Rosas, Binns, Fogarty, Pittonet, Lemmey, Young, Young, Wilson, Boyd, White, Cincotta
Developing: Pick 6, Campo, Campo, Dean, Charleson, Ison, Monahan, Duffy
Wait and See: Kemp
Ruled out: O'Farrell

It's an interesting point around potentially retaining TOK and with the new ruck rule interpretation being announced, TDK will become one of the best rucks in the game, if not the best so perhaps we have been prepared to increase our offer to somewhere closer to what the Saints were offering. Would hate to lose him over less than $200k.

 

[ajs071]

TDK is gone folks!!!!

 

[Benaly28]

Look like we will turn over 8 -9 players at end of season. We will be losing lots of experience too. JSOS, TDK, Gov. that’s a rebuild in my book. Don’t expect a rise up the ladder any time soon

Respect your opinion disagree about not rising up.

 

[JustaBattler]

Look like we will turn over 8 -9 players at end of season. We will be losing lots of experience too. JSOS, TDK, Gov. that’s a rebuild in my book. Don’t expect a rise up the ladder any time soon

The real contenders are those that finish top4 but more so top2.

Then there are a bunch of Clubs that are pretty much all around the same lower to upper middling depending on luck to finish higher than each other.

Carlton finished at the lower end of middling because of...<anyone can fill in the blanks here with their own POV>

If the success mark is falling into finals finishing 8th to 5th - that is an ok result for a middling team.

The real success is getting a list together that is a genuine Top2 finisher. That means you have to have a list that can beat anyone anytime anywhere with 2-3 top end players out injured or on 'personal leave' - that is real depth and talent.

In order to finish top2 or even 4 in this competition and the way the FIXture is set up you have to be able to beat the strong teams at Home who have a real home advantage in Brisbane/Adelaide/ and be able to beat the other teams around your list status easily.

SO if #17 is the aim - IMO we are 4-5 players and some above average growth in VFL players short of being a top2 team. as well as some decent luck .

2026 will be about making finals
2027 will be about making them again with a sprinkling of now developed youth all having gotten 50 games + under their belts
2028 will be about managing the now old players and hoping that the young guns have built enough capability and want to win a flag after copping their finals exits as learnings.

That is the scenario that the top end players like Charlie are looking at and (maybe) to a lesser extent silvagni in (maybe) expressing their opinion about better places to play out their last 4 years of relevance as an AFL player.

TDK is a different story - he is being bought with silly money to support a desperate marketing story. Both he and the young gun on $2m or whatever will be an injury or two short of irrelevance.

The Club started hedging its bets as soon as they gave up 2 firsts for atop3 pick last year. Hopefully teh CLub decides on what their strategy is going forward and everyone aligns with that. 2025 is a year to forget- started badly and never recovered.

I hope that under Wright the CLub learns to get who they need to build to a genuine contender - it is time to use salary cap wisely and get ruthless with list management. Both Weitering and Walsh want a flag and are happy to see dead weight go - I like that.

Still not sure about Voss tbh- he has lacked mongrel and needs to stop favouring underperforming flakes - because they have just about cost him his career as a coach.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Look like we will turn over 8 -9 players at end of season. We will be losing lots of experience too. JSOS, TDK, Gov. that’s a rebuild in my book. Don’t expect a rise up the ladder any time soon

Just as important as what players we bring in, I feel the selection of our assistant coaches and the roll that they play will be crucial in whether we can rise or not. Our current game plan failed in round 1 this season against a very inexperienced team.
We need our guys to be confident in the game plan and what they are doing, this in itself could turn things around quicker than we hope.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Look like we will turn over 8 -9 players at end of season. We will be losing lots of experience too. JSOS, TDK, Gov. that’s a rebuild in my book. Don’t expect a rise up the ladder any time soon

IT's not a rebuild at all - how many players will we lose that played a key role in 2025?

Lets just say we take the picks we get for TDK and JSOS (and lets assume they are both first rounders) and package them up with Gov (and I would throw in Cerra but given his recent baffling contract it is unlikely) and trade them to Port for Butters - we are a better team after that (admittedly unlikely) trade even if we give up 4 players.

 

[Blue__Balls]

TDK IS GONE FOLKS!!!!

Thanks champ. Until it's announced, we can still speculate and hypothesise without these sorts of "contributions".

 

[Blue Pulse]

The real contenders are those that finish top4 but more so top2.

Then there are a bunch of Clubs that are pretty much all around the same lower to upper middling depending on luck to finish higher than each other.

Carlton finished at the lower end of middling because of...<anyone can fill in the blanks here with their own POV>

If the success mark is falling into finals finishing 8th to 5th - that is an ok result for a middling team.

The real success is getting a list together that is a genuine Top2 finisher. That means you have to have a list that can beat anyone anytime anywhere with 2-3 top end players out injured or on 'personal leave' - that is real depth and talent.

In order to finish top2 or even 4 in this competition and the way the FIXture is set up you have to be able to beat the strong teams at Home who have a real home advantage in Brisbane/Adelaide/ and be able to beat the other teams around your list status easily.

SO if #17 is the aim - IMO we are 4-5 players and some above average growth in VFL players short of being a top2 team. as well as some decent luck .

2026 will be about making finals
2027 will be about making them again with a sprinkling of now developed youth all having gotten 50 games + under their belts
2028 will be about managing the now old players and hoping that the young guns have built enough capability and want to win a flag after copping their finals exits as learnings.

That is the scenario that the top end players like Charlie are looking at and (maybe) to a lesser extent silvagni in (maybe) expressing their opinion about better places to play out their last 4 years of relevance as an AFL player.

TDK is a different story - he is being bought with silly money to support a desperate marketing story. Both he and the young gun on $2m or whatever will be an injury or two short of irrelevance.

The Club started hedging its bets as soon as they gave up 2 firsts for atop3 pick last year. Hopefully teh CLub decides on what their strategy is going forward and everyone aligns with that. 2025 is a year to forget- started badly and never recovered.

I hope that under Wright the CLub learns to get who they need to build to a genuine contender - it is time to use salary cap wisely and get ruthless with list management. Both Weitering and Walsh want a flag and are happy to see dead weight go - I like that.

Still not sure about Voss tbh- he has lacked mongrel and needs to stop favouring underperforming flakes - because they have just about cost him his career as a coach.

% agree, especially the last line, I see that as his downfall. He played too many favourites and too many out of form players continuously.

 

[Blue since 72]

Not for me - kicking is seriously woeful

Don’t need anymore of that. Wins ball runs away from contest and dump kicks to ?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

The real contenders are those that finish top4 but more so top2.

Then there are a bunch of Clubs that are pretty much all around the same lower to upper middling depending on luck to finish higher than each other.

Carlton finished at the lower end of middling because of...<anyone can fill in the blanks here with their own POV>

If the success mark is falling into finals finishing 8th to 5th - that is an ok result for a middling team.

The real success is getting a list together that is a genuine Top2 finisher. That means you have to have a list that can beat anyone anytime anywhere with 2-3 top end players out injured or on 'personal leave' - that is real depth and talent.

In order to finish top2 or even 4 in this competition and the way the FIXture is set up you have to be able to beat the strong teams at Home who have a real home advantage in Brisbane/Adelaide/ and be able to beat the other teams around your list status easily.

SO if #17 is the aim - IMO we are 4-5 players and some above average growth in VFL players short of being a top2 team. as well as some decent luck .

2026 will be about making finals
2027 will be about making them again with a sprinkling of now developed youth all having gotten 50 games + under their belts
2028 will be about managing the now old players and hoping that the young guns have built enough capability and want to win a flag after copping their finals exits as learnings.

That is the scenario that the top end players like Charlie are looking at and (maybe) to a lesser extent silvagni in (maybe) expressing their opinion about better places to play out their last 4 years of relevance as an AFL player.

TDK is a different story - he is being bought with silly money to support a desperate marketing story. Both he and the young gun on $2m or whatever will be an injury or two short of irrelevance.

The Club started hedging its bets as soon as they gave up 2 firsts for atop3 pick last year. Hopefully teh CLub decides on what their strategy is going forward and everyone aligns with that. 2025 is a year to forget- started badly and never recovered.

I hope that under Wright the CLub learns to get who they need to build to a genuine contender - it is time to use salary cap wisely and get ruthless with list management. Both Weitering and Walsh want a flag and are happy to see dead weight go - I like that.

Still not sure about Voss tbh- he has lacked mongrel and needs to stop favouring underperforming flakes - because they have just about cost him his career as a coach.

Collingwood, Adelaide & Gold Coast both missed finals last year.. it can turn quickly with some shrewd well-planned acquisitions and growth from the playing list. Its not doom and gloom, we fix our run and carry issues, and I am confident we have the body of a list that can bounce back quickly and contend next year.

 

[Blue since 72]

% agree, especially the last line, I see that as his downfall. He played too many favourites and too many out of form players continuously.

He may have had favourites all coaches do but he was hamstrung by the list at his disposal as well. You can include better but injury prone players in there too.

A fair number of the young guys who are starting to show something now were not ready and a fair number of his regulars are just bog ordinary.

 

[Jimmae]

If we want to Match the de dekoning bid to force a trade, do we have to prove we have the salary cap room. Just wondering in relation to McGovern situation.

Probably, but Docherty is already coming off the books, plus some senior delistings.

 

[Blue Pulse]

He may have had favourites all coaches do but he was hamstrung by the list at his disposal as well. You can include better but injury prone players in there too.

A fair number of the young guys who are starting to show something now were not ready and a fair number of his regulars are just bog ordinary.

Correct, all coaches have favourites, but you destroy your teams culture and standards in the way Voss did it.

Allowing a senior player to continue to play when they are in poor form (McGov) and dropping the same blokes every other week ( Kemp, JSOS, Young) sends out 2 very different messages to the playing group and doesn't assist the player who is in poor form.

 

[Blue__Balls]

He may have had favourites all coaches do but he was hamstrung by the list at his disposal as well. You can include better but injury prone players in there too.

A fair number of the young guys who are starting to show something now were not ready and a fair number of his regulars are just bog ordinary.

I think it's a really tough line for most coaches to walk - when do you pull the trigger on a proven player because of "form", and how long do you afford them in the seniors to try and recapture their form.

I think it was exacerbated for us as well because there were so many players out of form - what was Voss gonna do, drop Weiters, Gov and Haynes after R1? Drop Cripps and Cerra at the same time? Play with only 3 forwards?

 

[AB_Blue]

Probably, but Docherty is already coming off the books, plus some senior delistings.

Reckon our salary cap would have a nice Zak Butters hole in it come 26

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Probably, but Docherty is already coming off the books, plus some senior delistings.

How does 'forcing a trade' work? You match an offer with the understanding that 'said' player is not going to sign it?

 

[Benaly28]

If we do have a TDK compo pick, who is an outside player we could actually trade it for?

People might laugh at my suggestion but Kane Farrel would transform our transition.

 

[Benaly28]

I hope we do get 8-9 changes this offseason and it’s not like every other year where we have some have some delistings but the 23 is mostly the same as the previous year. We need real changes.

I’d say 10-12 players will go.