List Mgmt. 2025 List Management III 📃

[Aphrodite]

Continued from here:-

List Mgmt. - 2025 List Management II 📃

www.bigfooty.com

 

[branedotorg]

If Hawthorn rated Worpel, I doubt he would have left

i think they rated him accurately, as their 4-5 best mid

 

[circusdevil]

100%. His best football last year was in the middle. Some just were elite

The question for him has been his tank. Has worked his backside off and is improving. I’ve been extremely impressed. Has more talent than anyone on list

If he can have another full pre season and train with mids he is a real wildcard for 2026. Could change our whole outlook

Jagga Moir Lord Walker Ison is the potential core of an elite midfield for next 6-8 years

You were pretty sour on him early doors, even suggesting he was lazy. Glad to hear you have come around.

 

[Poorman53]

He's no world beater, but as a delisted free agent next year I'd be getting into Patrick Voss's managements ear in the case he may want to come back to Victoria.

 

[Soapy V]

You were pretty sour on him early doors, even suggesting he was lazy. Glad to hear you have come around.

Incorrect. I said question mark was his had a poor tank. It was a long way off AFL level. Talent was elite. Not there yet but improving. NEVER said he was lazy. If anything I have been impressed by his efforts to improve

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

This is the most frustrating bit. We have long prioritised the inside game, but blind Freddy can see that the game has moved past the "Win the clearances / contested ball; win the game".

Which has been obvious along the last decade, failed draft picks hasn’t helped, along with a few different types we have tried and failed, lacking the foresight to draft for the modern prototypes required across positions to where the game has been trending…
There’s been a shift across the past few seasons with speed/running types the lack of multiple developmental KPP’s is now clearly an issue, more so the forwards, we’ve on just recently recruited O’Farrell last year and Dean to be taken this upcoming draft period…

 

[JustOneTime]

My problem with list mgmt is the continual over supply in one position and gaping holes in others. Haynes and Young are interceptor backs but Carlton never bothered filling the role of Petty/Payne/Murphy etc. Left empty.

Instead in 2022 they had 8 inside midfielders in Cez, Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy, Setters, Fogarty, ed curnow, and stocker. Potentially Dow who cant kick so should be inside and Durdin a mid before joining us.

Fast track to now and we have Acres, L Campo, Florent, Cottrell, F Young, O Hollands, Chesser, Walsh, maybe E Hollands who can all play wing. And we had Binns until 2 seconds ago. O Hollands with a shout to being the best winger behind Walsh they have moved to defence to be less effective. And yes, I know Walsh is a midfielder too but his traits and injury profile suggest Carlton should put him on the wing but they cant because of the sheer volume of inside mids killing Carlton's speed.

And still no Payne/Petty/Murphy/JSoS type in defence. The no panic defender who puts his body on the line. Kemp/Young can play the game but inherently they are panickers. The ingredient on steady/sturdy/pigheaded defender profile is missing from our defence and JSoS showed it in less than half a season in one try. Carlton still dont recognise the value JSoS provided yet 3 other clubs came straight for him and recognised the role he can play in a defensive unit. Carlton didnt look to find anyone who can do what JsoS offered. Be a stubborn body/physical defender.

Our list is screaming out for a kicker/playmaker off half back and despite it being annoying Z Williams has Carroll, Boyd, McGovern, Weitering, Newman and Saad covered for kicking plus confidence to do the attacking play. There is Z Williams sitting under their noses when they are thinking about improving turnover goals and what options they have.

With our incoming trades, sure Ollie back to the wing and Z Williams off half back. Instead the club and most supporters go on about the impending return of the courageous but slow Newman, a one sided high up in the air kicker who is old and not even closely suited to the modern game.

Our current gaping holes:

• Second key back...someone to hold while Dean develops and allows us to challenge in 2026
• A quarterback who when kicks out of defence or forward of midfield you get the sense of a great goal chance (Saad doesn't give this but he gives lots of other goodness)
• A ruck because all of ours are backup quality options who will now get to play firsts

After that is is simply normal growth where Carlton need to find another speedy mid and a key forward who can score goals. Not just compete like HoK will. What will happen...an elite winger will pop in the next 2 years and they will draft him wasting 5 years of drafts/trades.

 

[circusdevil]

Incorrect. I said question mark was his had a poor tank. It was a long way off AFL level. Talent was elite. Not there yet but improving. NEVER said he was lazy. If anything I have been impressed by his efforts to improve

Soap, you were scathing of the young lad until someone you trust told you he was putting in the effort (which i had told you repeatedly from day one - he is a ripping kid). We had a few 'conversations' about it on here. No point rehashing it ... good that you are vocal about the effort that Ashton is putting in. He never deserved the doubt and vitriol that he copped as a first and second year player from many on here.

 

[Tim H]

Soap, you were scathing of the young lad until someone you trust told you he was putting in the effort (which i had told you repeatedly from day one - he is a ripping kid). We had a few 'conversations' about it on here. No point rehashing it ... good that you are vocal about the effort that Ashton is putting in. He never deserved the doubt and vitriol that he copped as a first and second year player from many on here.

Wow I didn't realise we were supposed to keep score.

 

[MileHigh]

100%. His best football last year was in the middle. Some just were elite

The question for him has been his tank. Has worked his backside off and is improving. I’ve been extremely impressed. Has more talent than anyone on list

If he can have another full pre season and train with mids he is a real wildcard for 2026. Could change our whole outlook

Jagga Moir Lord Walker Ison is the potential core of an elite midfield for next 6-8 years

We havent seen Jagga yet at A grade but we expect something. Our future lies in the likes of Moir and Cooper Lord and I reckon we need one of those to to turn out to be something. I really like them both. And just the Lord / Jagga factor having played together and I think Dean or Ison also played with them there's a little unit there going on. Im massive on the club changes in personal and also the structural changes that makes us a part of the modern game. When we rebuilt it was all about 2 twin towers and inside mids. By the time that team developed the game had changed. Im huge on our off season and it might take a year (if we are lucky it all clicks quickly) but our list balance now is way better with pace on the outside, small forwards that can do minutes in the midfield and the old stalwarts. I feel like we are one KPD short. Let's see how we go.

 

[JustOneTime]

Soap, you were scathing of the young lad until someone you trust told you he was putting in the effort (which i had told you repeatedly from day one - he is a ripping kid). We had a few 'conversations' about it on here. No point rehashing it ... good that you are vocal about the effort that Ashton is putting in. He never deserved the doubt and vitriol that he copped as a first and second year player from many on here.

Will be interesting to see how Moir goes. I don't know anything about his training effort/mindset, just what i see on gameday. I dont tend to rate the late season games that Moir did well in 2024. Same for Evans in 2025. It doesnt also mean they are bad players either. I'm just very careful on fake heat games. Both these players did well in what was put in front of them.

In the games where the 4 points really count, I think so far Moir can be contained easy enough. I'd like him to get bullish when contained or angry even to have more of an impact. There is obviously a chance this comes with bigger body confidence/more experience.

Jury is out for me but i think fluky/flaky forward that will be hit and miss. Missing the determination mental gene of a JSoS/Hollands/Walsh for me.

 

[JustOneTime]

When we rebuilt it was all about 2 twin towers and inside mids. By the time that team developed the game had changed. Im huge on our off season and it might take a year (if we are lucky it all clicks quickly) but our list balance now is way better with pace on the outside, small forwards that can do minutes in the midfield and the old stalwarts. I feel like we are one KPD short. Let's see how we go.

This isnt trolling at all but it does represent my concern with all this change mentality all supporters think Carlton are making in 2026.

Supporters are going Hayward, Florent and Ainsworth and the loss of Curnow adds up to the club adopting a much more attacking style of play in line with the modern game. Losing a key forward for more runners is an indication of vossy's new gameplan.

I personally don't trust the club at all making this change in how we go inside 50 as two seconds before the Sydney deal Carlton were asking for Jed Walter as a direct replacement for curnow...they just got no traction on that deal and had to potentially just accept what Sydney put forward.

So it could've been another twin tower solution and no runners at Carlton if the deal had gone in another direction.

All im saying is, proof will be in the pudding because vossy had four years and only implemented high ball inside 50 plays and stoppage.

Nothing wrong with us not being sucker punched by Vossy and asking to see proof in a change of direction. After 4 years, no to blind faith. They dont deserve that type of support.

 

[BigBreakfast]

I'd say it pre-dates Voss.

Its only towards the end of last year that it felt like we would get some easy goals which probably reflects our opposition winding down as much as a change in game plan

Every since Charlie and Harry came of age, the drop it on their heads approach has dominated under every coach, unfortunately

Always bemused me given the endurance athlete Charlie is

 

[Jimmae]

So it could've been another twin tower solution and no runners at Carlton if the deal had gone in another direction.

If what you're saying is accurate, that's not the case at all, as we would have had Chesser and Florent already on the books. Just would have meant no Hayward and trio of additional first rounders, albeit with the 2027 pick sitting a fair way back, and a decent bit going back the other way.

Can imagine the deal would have looked something like Curnow for Walter and a couple of first rounders, but GC would have had too many of the necessary pieces tied up with acquiring Petracca.

 

[JustOneTime]

If what you're saying is accurate, that's not the case at all, as we would have had Chesser and Florent already on the books. Just would have meant no Hayward and trio of additional first rounders, albeit with the 2027 pick sitting a fair way back, and a decent bit going back the other way.

Can imagine the deal would have looked something like Curnow for Walter and a couple of first rounders, but GC would have had too many of the necessary pieces tied up with acquiring Petracca.

I think until proven otherwise, Chesser and Florent arent players who move the needle in any direction at all for us.

They might. But again, they have no runs on the board to achieve anything for us. Put it this way....Florent vs the encumbents of Ollie/Saad/Newman. Do you really think Florent moves us to a different stratosphere of ball transition over Ollie/Saad?

So with that request for Walter we don't know Vossy's plan. Let's wait before we give him and Carlton kudos. They have only failed us and the group of players out there with a sub standard gameplan of kick it high or higher inside 50.

Of course, when we see a modern gameplan then yes, lets accolade away.

In each match, lets count how many overlap unmarked forward marks we take vs how many we give up per match.

 

[Jimmae]

I think until proven otherwise, Chesser and Florent arent players who move the needle in any direction at all for us.

They might. But again, they have no runs on the board to achieve anything for us. Put it this way....Florent vs the encumbents of Ollie/Saad/Newman. Do you really think Florent moves us to a different stratosphere of ball transition over Ollie/Saad?

So with that request for Walter we don't know Vossy's plan. Let's wait before we give him and Carlton kudos. They have only failed us and the group of players out there with a sub standard gameplan of kick it high or higher inside 50.

Of course, when we see a modern gameplan then yes, lets accolade away.

In each match, lets count how many overlap unmarked forward marks we take vs how many we give up per match.

We have all the runners we were going to get either way, is what I am saying. What differs in the scenarios is Curnow being replaced by Walter or Hayward, with the latter extending us more draft picks down the line.

 

[azlou]

I don’t think GW wanted a new coach starting under pressure.
If Voss makes a mess of it the foundations will be there for a new coach to succeed

 

[JustOneTime]

We have all the runners we were going to get either way, is what I am saying. What differs in the scenarios is Curnow being replaced by Walter or Hayward, with the latter extending us more draft picks down the line.

Yes, draft hand wise kudos. And i liked what Carlton did in holding out to Sydney.

I'm still more interested in a modern gameplan. We are such a hard watch.

 

[Soapy V]

Interesting watching non listed players at training like Phillips & Paea. Two mature KPP's

We will get Dean & Ison and then have two spots left

We lack KPP's but we have also looked Toby Murray as a small forward

Surely, we need at least one KPP? I would argue we need 2. With HOF a while away and Dean only a raw kid we are very thin on options

Where does that leave Elijah and White? If invited to pre season (not sure they can if list is full) it could be on the basis of waiting for an injury?

 

[marcmurphy3]

Interesting watching non listed players at training like Phillips & Paea. Two mature KPP's

We will get Dean & Ison and then have two spots left

We lack KPP's but we have also looked Toby Murray as a small forward

Surely, we need at least one KPP? I would argue we need 2. With HOF a while away and Dean only a raw kid we are very thin on options

Where does that leave Elijah and White? If invited to pre season (not sure they can if list is full) it could be on the basis of waiting for an injury?

I think the rule is normally 2 train on spots for every open list spot. But that doesn't count guys who are on the VFL list. Not sure how firm the AFL is with those rules.

Our list management team always seems to go pretty light for KPP depth. For example, we've needed a backup KPF for years. McMahon would have played lots of games if on our list last year, but for some reason we werent interested. Now we lose Lemmey and Curnow, and probably still wont get one.

 

[Stamos]

I think the rule is normally 2 train on spots for every open list spot. But that doesn't count guys who are on the VFL list. Not sure how firm the AFL is with those rules.

They’re firm, but it’s because the official train-on players get paid.
Which is why you can have extras from the VFL team, because they get their VFL wage.

 

[Coona Blues]

Interesting watching non listed players at training like Phillips & Paea. Two mature KPP's

We will get Dean & Ison and then have two spots left

We lack KPP's but we have also looked Toby Murray as a small forward

Surely, we need at least one KPP? I would argue we need 2. With HOF a while away and Dean only a raw kid we are very thin on options

Where does that leave Elijah and White? If invited to pre season (not sure they can if list is full) it could be on the basis of waiting for an injury?

I believe Lij is gone, period! While the club is leaving a sliver of hope for those who want him, I just don’t see it, unless he trains like a superman and lives like a monk for the next few months.

Wil White probably gets a reprieve if spots open up due to LTI in the pre season. May be in a bracket with Murray.

I have Phillips a short priced favourite to get an SSP spot given our list balance. (I believe we will elevate a rookie after the draft - need four pick open to allow us to use points to match Ison.

Every piece of logic says we acquire at least one KPP via draft, rookie or SSP.

The third draft pick is the big question mark. Clearly has some dependence on where the Dean bid falls. Can be before or after the Ison bid/match. Thinking we are open to trading one of our first rounders in to next season for a future first and usable change. There is perhaps a scenario where we upgrade two existing rookies and add the likes of Phillips and Murray for example to our rookie contingent. Surely when elevating rookies we look at O’Keeffe first and Lord second, taking tenure and then game readiness in to account.

I would very much prefer a long term tall forward option with our “third” draft pick, but we need to be confident of the upside of the options available and how they fit in our mix. (Do we want a forward/ruck like Emmett when HOK is trending as more forward than ruck and big Reidy has some nice forward highlights? Do we want an undersized Marsh when we have the mobile Kemp and a developing Moir?)

We haven’t been linked with any talls to my knowledge, so I am thinking we may have reverted to thinking Harry O’Farrell may be deployed forward when he returns, leaving Weitering and Dean to be the staples down back, rather than have an elite triumvirate. While HOF is a bean pole like a young Harry McKay, he gives off different vibes to the original Big H. so I see them able to co-exist. We have options with likely HOF and Kempy both capable at either end and Young still a viable option back or doing a role forward or in the ruck.

Despite having two picks basically spoken for, this remains a fascinating draft period.

 

[The Bighouse]

Jacob Blight has signed up in the WAFL.

 

[Coona Blues]

Jacob Blight has signed up in the WAFL.

This surprises me a bit, I rate him as the best available “mature” key swingman. Perhaps he has a lucrative contract offer back home that would be superior to the rookie rate he would receive for potentially three years at an AFL club.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I believe Lij is gone, period! While the club is leaving a sliver of hope for those who want him, I just don’t see it, unless he trains like a superman and lives like a monk for the next few months.

Wil White probably gets a reprieve if spots open up due to LTI in the pre season. May be in a bracket with Murray.

I have Phillips a short priced favourite to get an SSP spot given our list balance. (I believe we will elevate a rookie after the draft - need four pick open to allow us to use points to match Ison.

Every piece of logic says we acquire at least one KPP via draft, rookie or SSP.

The third draft pick is the big question mark. Clearly has some dependence on where the Dean bid falls. Can be before or after the Ison bid/match. Thinking we are open to trading one of our first rounders in to next season for a future first and usable change. There is perhaps a scenario where we upgrade two existing rookies and add the likes of Phillips and Murray for example to our rookie contingent. Surely when elevating rookies we look at O’Keeffe first and Lord second, taking tenure and then game readiness in to account.

I would very much prefer a long term tall forward option with our “third” draft pick, but we need to be confident of the upside of the options available and how they fit in our mix. (Do we want a forward/ruck like Emmett when HOK is trending as more forward than ruck and big Reidy has some nice forward highlights? Do we want an undersized Marsh when we have the mobile Kemp and a developing Moir?)

We haven’t been linked with any talls to my knowledge, so I am thinking we may have reverted to thinking Harry O’Farrell may be deployed forward when he returns, leaving Weitering and Dean to be the staples down back, rather than have an elite triumvirate. While HOF is a bean pole like a young Harry McKay, he gives off different vibes to the original Big H. so I see them able to co-exist. We have options with likely HOF and Kempy both capable at either end and Young still a viable option back or doing a role forward or in the ruck.

Despite having two picks basically spoken for, this remains a fascinating draft period.

Not so sure on Lij, if he wasnt going to be considered I think the club would have just taken a firm stance and cut all ties, they left the door ajar and clearly with a strict set of KPIs he needs to hit before being given a chance of resurrecting his career, if he does the work and stays clean I would expect him to be given the last list spot back.

 

[Soapy V]

This surprises me a bit, I rate him as the best available “mature” key swingman. Perhaps he has a lucrative contract offer back home that would be superior to the rookie rate he would receive for potentially three years at an AFL club.

They generally have a clause to be released if offered AFL deal.

I still believe our focus is Phillips. Since we have seen him up close for year and part of program it should be easy decision. He will be a handy back up