What is the future of war remembrance in Australia?

[SBD Gonzalez]

No police died at Glenrowan. They were murdered at Stringybark Creek. There is a memorial there, but it is not an easy place to get to.

And despite your unreasonable comparison, I was talking about proper and appropriate designation and memorialisation of what took place at Glenrowan. Kelly is a significant figure in Australian history (unlike Freeman, whether you lump them in to the same category or not) and Glenrowan should have more than a low-rent electronic show and a 20 foot wooden statue of Ned himself.

I truly don’t get the Ned Kelly thing. Doubt I ever will.

 

[schneebly111]

Our fallen heroes would be devastated to know what’s happening in Gaza.

We are allowing what they fought for to happen again.

Australian soldiers fought the Ottomans in Palestine in WW1 in order to recapture it for the British empire. Some of the heaviest fighting occurred in Rafah and Gaza.

I doubt whether the average WW1 soldier would’ve been joining a pro Palestine march. In fact this is little known fact of Australian war history that shows what Anzac troops though of Palestinians (albeit mostly NZ troops):

Surafend massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Punter]

Kelly's significance to Australian history is rather overblown in my view.


I'm not sure what else needs to be commemorated. There was an attempted foiled hijacking of a train and a siege where three out of the four Kelly gang were killed by the police.

I think this is a fairly dismissive assessment of the factors at play during Kelly's time. While I am cognisant of the fact that many think that Kelly was merely a cop killer and common criminal, I think that assessment completely ignores many other things that were going on in the Victorian colony in the 1870s in particular.

To be clear, I don't want Kelly commemorated as some sort of hero, but Glenrowan makes it look like we are ashamed of what happened there. Even if Kelly is merely a cop killer and common criminal, the next Victorian convicted of killing multiple police after Kelly was Bendali Debs. Stringybark Creek is an important event in Victorian history, as it the siege at Glenrowan. Something respectful to the innocent people involve noting the import of what took place at Glenrowan, rather than the embarrassment that is there now, would be more appropriate in my view and would not denigrate the memory of anyone.

 

[Gough]

I truly don’t get the Ned Kelly thing. Doubt I ever will.

I like the Sidney Nolan paintings.

 

[Roylion]

I think this is a fairly dismissive assessment of the factors at play during Kelly's time.

I'm well aware of the factors at play in the 1870s in colonial Victoria. That doesn't change my opinion on the level of commemoration at Glenrowan...a place that I have visited many times, given I have family in the local area.

To be clear, I don't want Kelly commemorated as some sort of hero, but Glenrowan makes it look like we are ashamed of what happened there.

How are we 'ashamed'? What exactly are we 'commemorating' at Glenrowan?

Stringybark Creek is an important event in Victorian history, as it the siege at Glenrowan.

The 'importance' of the events to Victorian history are debatable, even though both events are well known.

Something respectful to the innocent people involve noting the import of what took place at Glenrowan,

What was the 'import' of what took place at Glenrowan? There was an attempted foiled hijacking of a train and a siege where three out of the four Kelly gang were killed by the police. Another three people also died in the gunfight.

rather than the embarrassment that is there now, would be more appropriate in my view and would not denigrate the memory of anyone.

The Kelly Gang’s last stand has certainly become an Australian folk legend, but I'm not sure what other commemoration is needed.

 

[QuietB]

No police died at Glenrowan. They were murdered at Stringybark Creek. There is a memorial there, but it is not an easy place to get to.

And despite your unreasonable comparison, I was talking about proper and appropriate designation and memorialisation of what took place at Glenrowan. Kelly is a significant figure in Australian history (unlike Freeman, whether you lump them in to the same category or not) and Glenrowan should have more than a low-rent electronic show and a 20 foot wooden statue of Ned himself.

But why is "Kelly" a "significant figure in Australian history". What is the difference between Kelly and Freeman? Kelly seems to be your run of the mill sovereign citizen to me?

What is Australia looking for and celebrating when we choose someone like Kelly to represent significance in Australian History?

And why does Australia choose to celebrate Kelly whilst we also choose to ignore/suppress/deny other more significant and substantial Australian history.

I stand by original point - The Kelly story, just like the free settler story (which Kelly is a part of), like the ANZAC story, like the Australia Day story, are all examples of a new colony desperately trying to establish their colonial identity.

 

[QuietB]

Australian soldiers fought the Ottomans in Palestine in WW1 in order to recapture it for the British empire. Some of the heaviest fighting occurred in Rafah and Gaza.

I doubt whether the average WW1 soldier would’ve been joining a pro Palestine march. In fact this is little known fact of Australian war history that shows what Anzac troops though of Palestinians (albeit mostly NZ troops):

Surafend massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When Palestine is wiped out which is a real possibility - what will they do with the name Palestine which is carved into stone on just about every ANZAC memorial in the country?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I doubt whether the average WW1 soldier would’ve been joining a pro Palestine march. In fact this is little known fact of Australian war history that shows what Anzac troops though of Palestinians (albeit mostly NZ troops):

Surafend massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Amazing, I listened to a NZBC broadcast about the Surafend Massacre just this week!

First I’d heard of it.

 

[The Punter]

Roylion (I can't multiquote like you do)

The Kelly Gang affair resulted in a Royal Commission into police conduct. That doesn't happen very often, therefore the significance.

To others, I would have thought one could recognise reaction to poor official treatment when it was witnessed. This poor treatment is not a topic of serious debate but accepted fact.

 

[The Punter]

Also worth noting the situation at Eureka isn't much better. But at least it's not obviously low rent.

 

[kickazz]

What parts should we remember?

That ordinary people suffered because of the decisions of greedy and powerful people.

Same for all wars really.

 

[The Punter]

That ordinary people suffered because of the decisions of greedy and powerful people.

Same for all wars really.

Sometimes those greedy and powerful people were your commanders. Sometimes you were fighting against them.

I would like to remember that many of those ordinary people showed extraordinary bravery in hopeless situations.

And at commemorations, we should all (at least silently in one's own mind) ask not to be put to the test the way the fallen were.

 

[Roylion]

Roylion (I can't multiquote like you do)

The Kelly Gang affair resulted in a Royal Commission into police conduct. That doesn't happen very often, therefore the significance.

But that didn't take place in Glenrowan.

To others, I would have thought one could recognise reaction to poor official treatment when it was witnessed.

And is that what a memorial at Glenrowan would commemorate?

The convict system was a breeding-ground for bushrangers due to the system's savagery, with starvation and acts of torture against convicts being rampant. The Bathurst rebellion of 1830 was an example of resistance against that particular system. There are estimates of up to 2,000 bushrangers roaming the countryside between 1788 and the 1920s.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I think the military deaths by conflict is an interesting number.

The full figures are here: https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/war_casualties

But in summary

Boer War	595​
World War 1	61,721​
World War 2	39,658​
Korean War	340​
Vietnam War	524​
All other conflicts, 1860 - present	247​

The Vietnam War ended 50 years ago and since then, a total of 56 Australians have been killed in military service.

That's not to downplay anything... but the reality is that the tragedy of war is simply no long an ever-present part of Australia's consciousness. It was all built around the two World Wars - and rightfully so - but I wonder at which point will it simply fade altogether (include the political capital associated with boosting it).

We're probably a lot closer to that day than a lot of people realise.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I don't know how this conversation morphed into a discussion about Ned Kelly, but I think it's safe to say there will never be any public memorial to him. No need to explain why.

The 'statue' at Glenrowan is just a tourist attraction built by business owners to get people to stop and buy something.

 

[ZEV]

But why is "Kelly" a "significant figure in Australian history". What is the difference between Kelly and Freeman? Kelly seems to be your run of the mill sovereign citizen to me?

Ned Kelly didn't touch kids.

 

[The Punter]

But that didn't take place in Glenrowan.


And is that what a memorial at Glenrowan would commemorate?

The convict system was a breeding-ground for bushrangers due to the system's savagery, with starvation and acts of torture against convicts being rampant. The Bathurst rebellion of 1830 was an example of resistance against that particular system. There are estimates of up to 2,000 bushrangers roaming the countryside between 1788 and the 1920s.

When I visit Bathurst, I'll let you know what I think of the commemoration there.

Yes, the Royal Commission probably took place in a court, and there isn't a large enough courthouse in Glenrowan. The events leading up to and including the Glenrowan siege precipitated the Royal Commission into police conduct.

Yes, lots of bushrangers. Most were merely petty criminals of no long-term importance. If this were true of the Kelly gang, I reckon I would have the same recollection of them as I do of the others, which is, not much at all.

 

[Northalives]

Our fallen heroes would be devastated to know what’s happening in Gaza.

We are allowing what they fought for to happen again.

Yes, it's bloody sad.

 

[ZEV]

Our fallen heroes would be devastated to know what’s happening in Gaza.

We are allowing what they fought for to happen again.

Do you find it appropriate to speak for them?

 

[schneebly111]

That's not to downplay anything... but the reality is that the tragedy of war is simply no long an ever-present part of Australia's consciousness. It was all built around the two World Wars - and rightfully so - but I wonder at which point will it simply fade altogether (include the political capital associated with boosting it).

Less than 2% of the population attends Anzac events. The crowd is overwhelmingly older, non diverse and not reflective of the modern Australia.