Doping Thread

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Might be slightly off topic but wanted to put some thoughts I've been having down and hear what others think.

What do people think about the dominance of British athletes in endurance sports since the turn of the century? Just a few I have thought of:

1. Road Cycling (Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome who have both conquered the biggest cycling race in the world, Froome quite easily could have won the past 5 Tours. Plus Mark Cavendish who has easily been the best road sprinter of the past decade).
2. Women's marathon (Paula Radcliffe who has the top three women's marathon times of all time with the 4th best time being from a Russian athlete).
3. Triathlon (Brownlee brothers being a dominant force in recent times).
4. Long distance track running (Mo Farah, did the 10,000m/5,000m double at the 2012 Olympics, something he has also done numerous times at World Championships and European Championships).

I don't buy the argument that these performances have been a result of higher funding due to Britain hosting the 2012 games, at the elite level of sport everybody has the same (or very similar) access to resources and most of the athletes would be doing very similar training in the endurance sports. As a result, there has to be some other advantage that British athletes have that consistently separates them from the rest of the pack. Paula Radcliffe's performances are absolutely absurd and stand out like a sore thumb in the history of sport. Chris Froome went from being an average domestique to the best GT rider in the world in a very short time period. Mo Farah has a Lance Armstrong-like record in recent times. Something just smells fishy at the moment and I think the doping lens needs to be moved from Russia over to the Brits.

Love to know people's thoughts and if anybody has any resources discussing the recent British dominance.
 
blackcat said:
i bet you think jumping jai turema's long jumps in sydney were fuelled by drugs too. Zgope1
you are just a conspiracy theorists

there was nuffin more nefarious in jumping jais jumps #alliterations than the #dirtybird and kentucky firend fried chicken pleonasm

RussellEbertHandball
Click to expand...
And the ciggies, used to practice with the pack rolled up in his sleeve in the early days apparently.;)

I loved HG Nelson's nickname for him - Jumping Jai, the Centimetre Guy.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
And the ciggies, used to practice with the pack rolled up in his sleeve in the early days apparently.;)

I loved HG Nelson's nickname for him - Jumping Jai, the Centimetre Guy.
Click to expand...
Jumping Jai would have prolly o'd'ed on the Ansell afterparties #alliterations, he may have had to check himself into some rehab clinic for Olympic horizontal hijinx
 
does anyone read me, blackcat third person, over on cyclingnews forums the clinic subforum.

one word.

Gordonstoun
or two words
Gordonstoun School

and muscular christianity. Geelong Grammar and Timbertop was based on Gordonstoun. That is their secret. But there are no secrets



#Poe's_law
 
blackcat said:
i bet you think jumping jai turema's long jumps in sydney were fuelled by drugs too. Zgope1
you are just a conspiracy theorists

there was nuffin more nefarious in jumping jais jumps #alliterations than the #dirtybird and kentucky firend fried chicken pleonasm

RussellEbertHandball
Click to expand...
An interview with the Centimeter Guy a month before the Olympics on ABC radio flagship current affairs program AM.

Jai got bagged before the Olympics 1) for his casual attitude and training regime and 2) he said the black athletes will struggle in the long jump in Sydney because its a lot cooler than a northern hemisphere August or September Olympics/Athletics meet.

The week before the athletics started, the US sprint track coach said he expected Shirvington to make the final of the 100m mainly because it was a cooler temperature ( he didn't specifically refer to black runners but thats what he meant) than most were used to running and he was at home. that would have made him the first white guy to make a finals since 1980 boycotted games lead by USA.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s163151.htm
Training regime of cigarettes, pizza and late nights
AM Archive - Monday, 14 August , 2000 00:00:00
Reporter: Rafael Epstein
COMPERE: A pack of cigarettes a day, pizzas and hamburgers as well as late nights are not the usual training regime for an Olympic athlete. But that's how a 28-year-old Queenslander is preparing for this week's Australian athletic selection trials in Sydney.

Olympics reporter Rafael Epstein:

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Jai Taurima is almost certain to be one of three Australian long jumpers competing in September. But is that really his training regime?

JAI TAURIMA: Um, yeah it is true, except for especially the pizza now anyway. Coming a month before a trial or before a major championship like the Olympic Games, I'll cut my weight down, which is: no pizza, no diet Coke or no Coca Cola. Smoking a packet of cigarettes a day. Yeah, I'm all for that.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: So you're still smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
JAI TAURIMA: Oh yeah.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Why does this not interfere with the performance of an elite athlete?
JAI TAURIMA: Oh, long jump's a pretty easy event. You just run 50 metres and jump, basically. It's not that hard. If I was running a 200, I think that would hurt quite a bit.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: What do the coaches and the people at the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra think about this sort of training regime?
JAI TAURIMA: Well, when I first moved to Canberra it was quite tough because they didn't know how to take my personality. But we've all gotten on really well, and they know that smoking doesn't really hurt my performance. So I just keep going along with it.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Do you think your novel diet and your smoking helps in some way?
JAI TAURIMA: Well, smoking helps. It just stops me from eating, especially coming into a championship. And once you're addicted, you're addicted, aren't you? So. I will finish after the Olympic Games. I just want to be healthy again.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Unable to compete at the last Olympic and Commonwealth Games, Taurima showed his potential coming fourth at last year's world championships in Seville, missing out on a bronze medal by centimetres.

JAI TAURIMA: I was having my last jump of the whole competition, and the Spanish marathon runner was actually coming into the stadium. Of course he won the event. So, he was coming down the back stadium, and that's where the long jump was. And 80,000 Spanish guys and girls got to their feet cheering for him. And I said, hang on (in my head) I said, these guys aren't cheering for him, these guys are cheering for me and I'm in Sydney next year. And just ran down - jumped. I actually thought that I probably got second with that jump. But unfortunately I didn't. But I did a PB. So I was very, very happy with that.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: How long have you been dreaming or thinking about being involved in the Olympics?
JAI TAURIMA: Um, ever since I was nine years old. I remember I said to my mum 'one day I want to be an Olympic champion'. And I've got it on tape somewhere. So, that's - yeah, since I was nine.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN: What are you going to do once your event's over in Sydney?

JAI TAURIMA: Yeah, I've already organised that. I'm going to get my girlfriend Kerry Perkins to bring a surf board for me and I'll go for a night surf, without a doubt that's the first thing I'm going to do. And go straight out to a pub somewhere - definitely. Have a few quiet ones.

COMPERE: Potential Australian Olympic long jumper and physical wreck Jai Taurima.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s163151.htm
 
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Here's something I wrote about Radcliffe when she was accused of doping a year or so ago.


Here's a very good (probably too detailed) article about off-scores and Paula Radcliffe.

http://sportsscientists.com/2015/09/paula-radcliffe-off-scores-and-transparency/

And just at the bottom - a graph of other British athletes off-scores. (You need to read the article to understand it - I'm still struggling:$). But - check the outlier.


Capture.png



If you read the article linked above 2 things stand out.
1) This stuff is f****ing complicated, and laymen like us are really struggling to understand all the details.
2) Radcliffe spent all her time explaining how the suspicious tests could have arisen from strange conditions (dehydration, altitude etc), yet she never released any test results showing her levels in the 'normal' range. If you are claiming something as a 'one-off' result, show all the others.

Also, in Radcliffe's world record run, she was paced and provided wind-cover by 2 male athletes the whole way.
 

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Wallaby said:
Here's something I wrote about Radcliffe when she was accused of doping a year or so ago.


Here's a very good (probably too detailed) article about off-scores and Paula Radcliffe.

http://sportsscientists.com/2015/09/paula-radcliffe-off-scores-and-transparency/

And just at the bottom - a graph of other British athletes off-scores. (You need to read the article to understand it - I'm still struggling:$). But - check the outlier.


Capture.png



If you read the article linked above 2 things stand out.
1) This stuff is f****ing complicated, and laymen like us are really struggling to understand all the details.
2) Radcliffe spent all her time explaining how the suspicious tests could have arisen from strange conditions (dehydration, altitude etc), yet she never released any test results showing her levels in the 'normal' range. If you are claiming something as a 'one-off' result, show all the others.

Also, in Radcliffe's world record run, she was paced and provided wind-cover by 2 male athletes the whole way.
Click to expand...

Cheers, I think I've come across that article before. Bewildering and quite frankly, unbelievable, for there to be such an outlier at the pinnacle of the sport. A quick google also suggests some argue that there is no incentive for women to chase the world record as they are better off winning 'slow' so they can recover faster, do more races and collect more $$. But surely breaking the world record would produce substantial financial benefits through sponsorship and endorsements, which would be better than prizemoney as it's guaranteed income. And you can't tell me the natural competitiveness of athletes wouldn't spur them on to run as fast as they can when they race.

I don't buy it at all, and like most 'superhuman' performances I reckon Paula was on a very good program which was (and is) funded and protected by the British government.
 
Watched an interesting documentary on SBS last night, about Doping.
http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/727310403660/sports-doping-winning-at-any-cost

Towards the end they were discussing a method which is supposedly legal - running electrical currents through the brain (before exercise). Apparently this can result in the brain not receiving (or sending) the signals to stop, when the body hits its natural limits. This allows the athlete to keep going at 100% for longer, presumably until they collapse from complete exhaustion. Apparently it can improve performances by up to 20-25%. It's legal and undetectable.

I'm wondering if this could be the secret behind the recent successes of so many UK endurance athletes (including non-UK nationals competing on British teams -e.g. Wout Poels, riding for UK Postal)? Would go a long way towards explaining how a donkey transformed overnight into a thoroughbred racehorse (Froome), while allowing him to keep a straight face when telling the world that he isn't doping.
 
Vader said:
Watched an interesting documentary on SBS last night, about Doping.
http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/727310403660/sports-doping-winning-at-any-cost

Towards the end they were discussing a method which is supposedly legal - running electrical currents through the brain (before exercise). Apparently this can result in the brain not receiving (or sending) the signals to stop, when the body hits its natural limits. This allows the athlete to keep going at 100% for longer, presumably until they collapse from complete exhaustion. Apparently it can improve performances by up to 20-25%. It's legal and undetectable.

I'm wondering if this could be the secret behind the recent successes of so many UK endurance athletes (including non-UK nationals competing on British teams -e.g. Wout Poels, riding for UK Postal)? Would go a long way towards explaining how a donkey transformed overnight into a thoroughbred racehorse (Froome), while allowing him to keep a straight face when telling the world that he isn't doping.
Click to expand...
Froome was actually pretty good on Barloworld, that debut in July when he was 22, see both his chronos then, both top 20, arrived at the final ascent on the queen stage with the heads of state, it really was a phenomenal debut. He was only 22. No doubt the manager/owner then, John Robertson had him doped. He is about 188 cm tall, woulda been about 74kg on the startline, about 73 in Paris. But thin, a normal cyclist physique when you are doing 20 thousand miles a year under max conditions in training and racing. Also, Konstantin Siutsou had a great debut then too, think the 24/25yo Belarussian or Belarussan. And he won the queen stage in the major Italian espoir tour that year he was at the World Cycling Academy in Aigle Switzerland where the UCI in headquartered.

cant remember the name of the italian race. This was after the baby giro had stopped its race. And before the BioGiro a new iteration. Note, Scott Davis, Allan Davis' older brother, he podiumed overall in the baby giro. Peter Kennaugh got on the podium of either the BioGiro or the iteration of the baby giro, Little Richie Porte, LRP won a stage, just think he misses out on the podium overall, he was out for a stage win in preference to GC, so would have lost some time on purpose. he was riding under the Paris Roubaix winner Tafi at an Italian espoir amatuer/pro team. gonna do some googling for my ,emory for that race now.
 
@Giro_delle_Regioni

Vader you know how Froome-dawg went from 74, to 67?

A combination of Aicar, GW191516, lipotropin(aka AOD, Dank's go to drug), plus some cortisone, some testo, someother growth hormone peps too.

AND. his nutrition. Wiggins and Froome get an enema for hygiene, then they have a rectal liquid feeding tube for their nutition and dietary requirements. They wont eat, the calories will be in liquid straight into the lower intestine thru the opposition opposite transmission method thru the bowels. they are that fricken crazy. Hence, Wiggins and Froome can drop about 10% more bodyweight than a healthy road cyclist normally could. And they are not any bigger to start with than the Ethiopian marathoners, pro rate from a white person of anglo saxon lineage.

so blackcat, why are you using the Ethiopian marathoner as the trope to invoke ur analogy? :rolleyes:. yeah, goood point Vader, but my point stands. they were healthy not fat riders doing their 20thousand miles a year at 20thousand miles a year professional cyclist intensity.

It was like in 2014, that Peter Kennaugh, at 5'10, 5'09, he is about 69kg for the world champ track i think it was in manchester in march or april, and he drops about 5kg for the TdF and Brailsford said "caloric deficit" and i said BS scatology this marginal gains agitprop.

But mebbe, with all the drugs they are on, they can still reach their intensity and FTP, functional threshold power, even when they have to go hungerflat... and bonk. my point, I never thought you could even train to your potential, if you had to ride without enough fuel in your body, therefore, there would be an equilibrium that the body had, where it traded off the weightloss, for the peak, or optimal, functional threshold power, the optimal sustainable power. Always riding caloric deficit, you could never deliver the glycogen to the legs or lungs or heart. you are farked. So, the body will find an equilibrium, and not a Jan Ullrich offseason dunkin donuts equilibrium, or a Dario Pizzeria Pieri Paris alliterations roubaix equilibrium.

Becuase, when Armstrong comes back in 2010, in the New Mexico stage race where he was riding with Levi Leipheimer in the Mellow Johnny's colours, he was going backward on the queen stage... and then 6 weeks later in the Astana colours, he is on the podium of the Tour de France. Tour Of Gila. I had to google that. I stopped following cycling about 2008. have to google a few names now. I do follow the doping side of the sport now, it is what entertains me.

yeah, I am pretty proud of this post. I might go off and onanism skilts cos on cyclingnews fora they give me the permaban for using the term onanism.
 
this week one of my fellow triathletes I have raced many a day with Lisa Marangon was handed a 4 year ban for doping- it is disappointing in so many ways and I am not sure what to believe- it is a real shame if true and if she was framed bewildering as to why somebody would do so.

Details:
The 36-year-old Sydney native was first contacted on March 9 regarding her positive A-sample, and then again in May after her B-sample also came back positive.

According to Marangon, who denies any intentional wrongdoing or knowledge of the drug in question, her water bottle was maliciously tampered with during a 30-minute window while her race nutrition was left unattended prior to the half-iron distance race start. Marangon told Triathlete during an exclusive interview set to be published next week, she was offered two reduced sentences by ASADA if she would provide the agency an admission of guilt—the first, a one-year sentence following the initial findings, and a subsequent two-year ban after the second urine sample proved conclusive.

The multi-time Ironman 70.3 winner and former top-ranked ITU Long Distance female (2009) refused to plea bargain as she adamantly proclaims her innocence as read in her official statement sent to Triathlete on Friday.
Also known as MK-2866, Ostarine is a selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM). The drug binds to an athlete’s muscle receptors and enhances steroid-like muscle growth. Independent testing showed Marangon had 25mg of the PED in her system on race day.
Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/201...-4-year-ban-doping_134854#iK0GY1Fzo8k1s7Eb.99

Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/201...-4-year-ban-doping_134854#iK0GY1Fzo8k1s7Eb.99
Lisa-Marangon-by-Delly-Carr1.jpg
 
Fancy Bears (the Russian hackers releasing WADA TUE files) look like they have shown Wiggins was a drug cheat, using a loophole in the system.

He had injections over a 3 year period shortly before grand tours including the 2012 Tour de France he won. The drug is said to be used for allergies, was given by a doctor now banned for life by the UCI and WADA. It is the same drug which was one of preference in the late 1990s for boosting endurance.

It actually brings into question the whole SKY team that dominated that year (Froome was runner-up). Accusations have floated around for a while over Wiggins and he has claimed he never had injections during his professional career, something now proved false according to WADA records. As a general rule, where there is smoke there is fire. The French press have been asking these questions for a while now and the accuracy they have had has been amazing over the years, after all they were the ones who went hardest for longest on Armstrong.

You don't get a shot shortly before a GT from a dodgy doctor if it doesn't have some performance benefits. Call it a TUE if you like, but that's a lie, if it wasn't then he would of had an allergy shot each year and probably around the same time each year, after all hayfever is a season thing that occurs about the same time each year, I know I get it.
 
blue gunslinger said:
Independent testing showed Marangon had 25mg of the PED in her system on race day.
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I didn't see it in the article , and I don't know enough to guess or look, but is the 25mg level abnormally high ( of course it is) to determine when and how much was taken. ie to determine if her bottle was tampered with are the levels high enough to at least give an indication of when the PEDs were taken?

In the same way BAC can be calculated on levels in blood.
 
Slax said:
Fancy Bears (the Russian hackers releasing WADA TUE files) look like they have shown Wiggins was a drug cheat, using a loophole in the system.

He had injections over a 3 year period shortly before grand tours including the 2012 Tour de France he won. The drug is said to be used for allergies, was given by a doctor now banned for life by the UCI and WADA. It is the same drug which was one of preference in the late 1990s for boosting endurance.

It actually brings into question the whole SKY team that dominated that year (Froome was runner-up). Accusations have floated around for a while over Wiggins and he has claimed he never had injections during his professional career, something now proved false according to WADA records. As a general rule, where there is smoke there is fire. The French press have been asking these questions for a while now and the accuracy they have had has been amazing over the years, after all they were the ones who went hardest for longest on Armstrong.

You don't get a shot shortly before a GT from a dodgy doctor if it doesn't have some performance benefits. Call it a TUE if you like, but that's a lie, if it wasn't then he would of had an allergy shot each year and probably around the same time each year, after all hayfever is a season thing that occurs about the same time each year, I know I get it.
Click to expand...
In Wiggins defense, he late father was Australian. And Wiggins was only bringing a gun to a gun fight[sic] and not a knife to a gun fight cos that would be stupid innit

those TUEs were quite marginal, for a top ten finish you need a full pharmacy of EPO plus some blood transfusions

#concerntroll
 
blackcat said:
I do follow the doping side of the sport now, it is what entertains me.
Click to expand...

You lost me at rectal liquid feeding tube.

Recreational persians > doping.

Slax said:
It actually brings into question the whole SKY team that dominated that year (Froome was runner-up). Accusations have floated around for a while over Wiggins and he has claimed he never had injections during his professional career, something now proved false according to WADA records. As a general rule, where there is smoke there is fire. The French press have been asking these questions for a while now and the accuracy they have had has been amazing over the years, after all they were the ones who went hardest for longest on Armstrong.
Click to expand...

Its even been brought up in the UK press (via cynically reporting French coverage). UK press also reported other countries amazement at UK track teams massive improvement at last couple of olympics. Tried to make out its sour grapes but dont tell me they dont know and it was a none too subtle hint.
 
"This was about putting myself back on a level playing field in order to compete at the highest level".

Sounds familiar.:rolleyes:
 
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