Has an AFL decision/policy ever cost your club a potential flag?

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

The way the finals system was structured in between 1994-1999 most likely cost Essendon a premiership in 1999.

That's not an excuse, just an observation at how the likely outcome probably would have been different had the finals system operated as it does now.

I'd also say the decision at the time to contractually play one-final a week at the MCG, even if a non-Victorian team was "host" had an impact. In week 2 that season, Carlton, instead of travelling to Perth, played at the MCG. Even had they won in Perth, the impact of coming back from Perth, was surely worth more than the one point we lost by the following week.

Same system got a 6th placed losing Essendon side a second week home final against a 4th placed winning West Coast side at the MCG in 1996.

Kinda funny you lost both years in the prelim by 1 point.

 

[Dan26]

Same system got a 6th placed losing Essendon side a second week home final against a 4th placed winning West Coast side at the MCG in 1996.

Kinda funny you lost both years in the prelim by 1 point.

Yep, and it was unfair on West Coast in 1996 also. Good thing, in retrospect we didn't make that 1996 Grand Final. We would have lost by 15 goals.

 

[Freomaniac]

Matt Stevic

2014 Prelim final? cuts both ways to be honest....

I agree that Stevic made some dodgy decisions in that game.

On the other hand your team kicked 3.8.26 at Quarter time, 5.11.41 at half time, 8.13.61 at 3/4 time and 13.16.94 at the end of it.

Bad set shots on goal is bad goal kicking.

Dont get me wrong, I was gutted when Freo lost to your mob in Subi in that semi final the last week.

I asked all my Port mates this same question 2-4 weeks after the grand final.

"looking at how Hawks Dismantled the Swans by half time, As a Port fan, did you think at the time "that could of been us". Did you think Port could of done a similar thing to the swans in the 2014 Grand final?"

Every Port mate I knew had the exact same answer. An emphatic "yes"

 

[Freomaniac]

Three AFL rules that potentially cost St.Kilda a flag:

Allowing crowd invasions - St Kilda was leading the 2004 prelim 14-0 after G-Train kicked his 100th. Crowd invasion killed our momentum. Port got back on track, kicking the next 2 goals after the break in play. Saints ended up losing by 6. Missed the chance to play Brisbane in the GF- who we had a 2-1 record against in 2003 and 2004.

No score reviews- In 2009 Hawkins hit the post and it was called a goal. Saints ended up losing by 12 but crucially didn't lose the lead until the 24 minute mark of the last quarter. That year St Kilda was very tough to score against (having 26 goals kicked against us in the 3 finals - 7, 7 and 12) and if that had correctly been a behind and St Kilda had a bigger lead going into the final quarter (12 instead of 7), then St Kilda's last quarter game plan may have changed and might've saved the lead instead of giving it up with 5 minutes left.

Replayed Grand Finals- St Kilda had all the momentum in the 2nd half of the 2010 draw. If there had been extra time, I would've given us a 60-65% chance of winning, whereas the aging Saints always had the task ahead of them for the replay.

All 3 rules have subsequently been changed.

If the rules in 2004, 2009 and 2010 were as they are now, St Kilda would've very likely won at least one flag, and potentially 2 or 3.

I could add 2005 for the saints. Lead by 2 goals at 3 quarter time. Swans kick 7.2.44 to Saints 0.4.4

Win that game and face the eagles in that 2005 grand final.

win the 2005 grand final and Ross Lyons career is different.

 

[Freomaniac]

Hows that?

In 2018 - the year we won the flag we won 7/10 games vs interstate opposition and 2 neutral games against the dockers

9 games.


Long long LONG way from finals let alone finishing top 4

I know you vics listen to dickwit brereton bloviating about the hardest road trip in footy etc - but the hardest road trips in footy are all undertaken by perth teams except one and thats brisbane flying to perth. - to wce/ freo to tasmania, wce/ freo to geelong and wce/ freo to brisbane/gc or brisbane / gc to perth

No vic teams trip to perth cracks it for distance or results.


If its so fuxxxxn easy for west coast teams to play finals explain fremantle.


Ill wait.

Yep. West coast lost the opening game of the season to the swans in Perth, then west coast wins 10 games in a row.

As for fremantle.... As I said, 7 years out of 27 freo made finals. Not a good strike rate. Saying that, had Freo had a similar competent board and Admin they had from 2010-15 or even now back in 1995, thinks would of been different. Not to mention less injuries, a bit of luck and winning the occasional close game or 2 in certain seasons would of helped.

I am not saying that freo are certain to win a flag in any time period between 1995-2021. Instead of 7 years out of 27 in making finals, it might be 10-12 years out of 27 making finals.

 

[BronCrow]

I could add 2005 for the saints. Lead by 2 goals at 3 quarter time. Swans kick 7.2.44 to Saints 0.4.4

Win that game and face the eagles in that 2005 grand final.

win the 2005 grand final and Ross Lyons career is different.

Grant Thomas was still coaching the Saints at that stage.

Guess who was an assistant for the Swans that year?

 

[Freomaniac]

Not convinced that St Kilda would have beaten us if we had made the GF in 2005 either, though they did beat us in the first week of the finals at home.

Now thats an interesting scenario..... Actually I dont mind looking at that crows 2005-6 sides in detail.

Had the crows beaten west coast in the 2005 Prelim final and face the saints in the 2005 grand final..... That would of been interesting.

Crows in a way on paper would of had the saints covered in most areas of the ground.

Crows would of faced the saints forward line that had fraser gherig and Nick Riewoldt. Crows had Bock and Rutten as the KPDs, Ken McGregor could play CHB and CHF. Bassett was a medium defender too.

Crows mids were McCleod, Goodwin, Riccuito, Tyson Edwards as the Core. You had back up and rotational midfield depth of Michael Doughty, Robert Shirley and Martin Mattner and Jason Torney. Biglands was a good ruck and McGregor at 195 cm was a solid back up ruck.

Forward Line was the weakness.... But had some solid players: McGregor, Trent Henschell, Brett Burton and Scott welsh. I didnt rate Ian Perrie.


Saying that, Had the crows faced the saints in a grand final in 2005, Crows would of had to play like a Medium scoring side and score 11-14 goals on the day.


On the other hand Had the crows faced the Swans in the 2005 and 2006 grand finals, Its likely Crows would of won both of those games.

Crows had the swans number in 2005. Crows beat the swans twice in 2005. So if it was the crows vs swans played in the 2005 grand final, it would of been low scoring regardless. Swans game plan was low scoring and Crows forwardline didnt kick 100 points a game often. So even with the crows average forward line, crows kicking 11.10.76 or 12.10.82 might be enough to beat the swans in 2005.

Crows belted the swans in 2006 in the scg in the Regular season. Had the crows beaten the eagles in 2006 prelim, I still see the crows beat the swans in a low scoring game. The only difference is, Trent Henschell would not of been there as he did his knee.

 

[Freomaniac]

Grant Thomas was still coaching the Saints at that stage.

Guess who was an assistant for the Swans that year?

Ross Lyon

 

[ExYarraValley]

I’d like to thank the VFL for giving us what should have been StKildas recruiting zone. Leigh Mathews Dermie etc

 

[Boxhead_31]

STPer18 Lunchlady Doris looks like we have another fool on our hands.

9/22 home games = disadvantaged.

Seen a great stat that shows the disadvantage well.
Joel Selwood has played 323 games and has played 101 games at his home ground.
Scott Pendlebury has played 329 games and has played 209 games at his home ground

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

They were non-existent so you not understanding the time before salary cap and expansion. The salary cap happened before expansion. They may have just continued with less clubs but more talent each side as more talent can go into 8 teams, than could in 12 at the time.
Three clubs were dominating due to super sides in early to mid 80's. There was no salary cap so they could spend as much as they wanted on players and the other clubs could not keep up. It would have been more of the same clubs winning those premierships and who knows of the clubs in financial strife in trying to keep up, whom would have survived. I suspect it would have lost a few clubs and turned into an 8 club league but there was no sign that Carlton, Essendon and Hawthorn were going to let up dominating. As it was it took until 1990 for a different club other than one of those three to win another premiership which was about five years after a salary cap had been decided on.

Hence the league decision and policy for a salary cap meant that those three clubs now had to be more aligned to not becoming stronger and have talent progressively diluted until they become closer to the weaker teams and the weaker teams that survive could compete. That policy worked and we have the more even league from 1986 onwards but it took a few years for impact to bring other clubs up and dilute these super sides to just normal football sides. As we know a second decision soon after of expansion double downed to help those others clubs in financial strife as it did not become an 8 club league in late 80's but a 14 club league via the second decision.

There was some signing of players from our zones. I know Carlton did the dirty on the Bulldogs nabbing Bulldog zoned players back then and hiding them.

Not playing Essendon twice in 2016, probably stopped us being top four, other teams that made top four, I.e. Geelong did play them twice. Not that it mattered in the end.

The father son rule changes hurt the Bulldogs as well, it used to be 50 games, if that had stayed we could have recruited Ben and Sam Reid, and had our two bookends during 2008-2010 Years.

Libba’s goal in the 1997 prelim against Adelaide. Those that sat behind the goalpost swear it was a goal.

Riewoldt‘s dive in 2009, and the 50 metre penalty and goal as a result.

 

[Mat Mann]

I’d like to thank the VFL for giving us what should have been StKildas recruiting zone. Leigh Mathews Dermie etc

yup totally screwed us for the next decade and propelled the Hawks into 80's dominance.

Saints had won 1st premiership in 66, played in 4 consecutive finals campaigns in '69-'73 before our magnificent slide into the abyss began
I can't find the source but the Saints so sure they'd get the Frankston zone that they already had players signed under contract.

on of the great backroom political skullduggery event to have happened

THE FIGHT FOR FRANKSTON
From the time the Saints first moved to Moorabbin in 1965, they had their eyes set on the entire Mornington Peninsula and parts of Gippsland as their recruiting zone.

Yet when the Victorian Football League introduced recruiting zones in 1967, the Saints were given Ballarat, while the Peninsula and surrounds were allocated to Hawthorn. It meant champions like Leigh Matthews, Kelvin Moore and Peter Knights were gifted to the Hawks.

Indeed, the Hawk premiership teams of the 1970s and 1980s were filled with players from the Mornington Peninsula and beyond. It is highly doubtful the Hawks would have won all those flags between 1971 and 1991 if that region had been awarded to the Saints. Dermott Brereton, Gary Ayres, Chris Mew and Knights were all Hawthorn champions who might easily have played for St Kilda instead. The Ablett brothers – Geoff, Kevin and Gary, were also from nearby west Gippsland.

 

[Mat Mann]

There was some signing of players from our zones. I know Carlton did the dirty on the Bulldogs nabbing Bulldog zoned players back then and hiding them.

Not playing Essendon twice in 2016, probably stopped us being top four, other teams that made top four, I.e. Geelong did play them twice. Not that it mattered in the end.

The father son rule changes hurt the Bulldogs as well, it used to be 50 games, if that had stayed we could have recruited Ben and Sam Reid, and had our two bookends during 2008-2010 Years.

Libba’s goal in the 1997 prelim against Adelaide. Those that sat behind the goalpost swear it was a goal.

Riewoldt‘s dive in 2009, and the 50 metre penalty and goal as a result.

haha - still burns

F/S certainly helped you in '16 though

but the Hawkins Goal that wasn't a goal and saw the introduction of Goal-line reviews, or the blood treatment used by Chapman that would be outlawed at the end of the season

 

[Generalissimo]

Yes you would think with such a clear bias towards Geelong they’d have seen fit to at least show it with a free kick differential in our favour better than minus-4

I also suggest that if St Kilda players hadn't spent the majority of the first half making shocked pikachu faces at the umpires and flapping their arms like bloody seagulls, they might have got one or two more in the second half that were actually there. Boy that cried wolf and all that.

 

[megadeth86]

Yes, introducing a salary cap and draft probably cost us 10 flags.

 

[megadeth86]

Still our best H&A season ever. I'm surprised we were never as dominant into the 90s. Best season in the 90s was 16-6 132% which wouldn't rank top 50 in great H&A seasons.

Very different era in list management. Hawthorn won 5 flags from 1983-1991 and in terms of average age and games played the teams looked like this:

1983 25y180d 2243
1986 25y287d 2370
1988 26y134d 2403
1989 26y132d 2374
1991 26y166d 2331

Richmond were 25 and 2290 games in 2017 and 27 and 2925 last year. Teams that are contending for a few years you just expect to maintain a core of players and build age and experience until they eventually run out of puff. It's not like the 80s when the top teams had the SANFL and WAFL to just replenish their lists with 20-25 year old talent each year. Teams that top up generally sit closer to 10/11 on the premiership clock than 6-9 like the teams listed above.

Anyway, it's a minor one but I wonder what impact the AFL insisting on an ANZ Stadium QF in 2016 had. Sydney have a distinct home ground advantage with the SCG which wasn't there. 2013 another case of the AFL making it up as they go. Any other Vic team but Collingwood in 6th vs Port would've had their final played at Docklands and Geelong vs Freo would be at the MCG. Freo and Port both won so the footy gods did the right thing there.

But 1993 was a bad year for you. Hence your club has never won back-to-back flags, a major stain on your credibility. Malthouse should have won more flags with the players and rules he had back then. But he was the WA media and public's darling cos he was, you know, alpha-male and Victorian.

 

[austinnn]

The last ever GF replay in 2010 against an inexperienced Pies team, the Hawkins goal review that didn't happen in 2009, and in 1913...

Pretty sure back in the 20s and 30s and stuff the finals systems kept getting tweaked, with rights to challenge from the minor premier and other stuff like that chopping and changing.

It all seemed to be timed poorly for the cats from the stuff I've read. Might have punched a couple of extra flags otherwise.

From Wikipedia:
The 1913 season saw major improvement in which the team qualified fourth, but were eventually beaten in the 1913 grand final by Fitzroy. Due to the finals system at the time, Fitzroy, who had been defeated by St Kilda, were allowed to challenge St Kilda to a rematch the following week. St Kilda lost the rematch, 7.14 (56) to 5.13 (43).

Grant Thomas was still coaching the Saints at that stage.

Guess who was an assistant for the Swans that year?

Think that's probably what he was referring to. Would he have got the Saints and Freo gigs if his Swans hadn't won in 05?

 

[jakson68]

COLA, COLA, COLA.
It may have been brought up already but it deserves another shot.
The team the Lions had during the early 2000's was awesome.
Surely they couldn't fit that star studded line up into the salary cap.

Oh that's right, they didn't have to.

 

[GWT6]

On behalf of the interstate clubs

The AFL's MCG grand final agreement potentially.

Without it

2017 Grand Final hosted by Adelaide as the higher ranked team
2016 Grand Final hosted by Sydney as the higher ranked team
2015 Grand Final hosted by West Coast as the higher ranked team
2014 Grand Final hosted by Sydney as the higher ranked team

A lot of what if's if the MCG wasn't locked in every year

Then maybe Westcoast should have joined the WAFL.

 

[kane249]

Then maybe Westcoast should have joined the WAFL.

We got invited to join the VFL because clubs like yours were going broke and wouldn't have survived without the cash

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

haha - still burns

F/S certainly helped you in '16 though

but the Hawkins Goal that wasn't a goal and saw the introduction of Goal-line reviews, or the blood treatment used by Chapman that would be outlawed at the end of the season

It was actually Steele Sidebottom hitting the post in the 2011 Grand Final that brought in goal line reviews.

 

[iluvparis]

Introducing a salary cap and restricting our ability to buy flags has basically turned us into a modern day St Kilda - thanks AFL!

 

[Mat Mann]

It was actually Steele Sidebottom hitting the post in the 2011 Grand Final that brought in goal line reviews.

you may be right, there were calls throughout 2010 about the issue.

 

[simba_]

not stripping the lions of their flags for juicing at half time?

not stripping the cats of their flags for being dank's superteam?

idk they're the first things that come to mind

 

[royboy2]

not stripping the lions of their flags for juicing at half time?

That super strong salt water