List Mgmt. 2024 List Management thread - Trade Targets

[pK75]

Chip on your shoulder much? You're going to need more than a couple examples btw to expect me to believe that Freo of all clubs is engaging in racial profiling. That's one hell of an accusation thrown around and very casually. We didn't pick Marlion Pickett (a 27 yo ex-con) so that negates nearly 30 years of grassroots indigenous development and activism

Loser post bro.

I was just adding two more examples to the original post that mentioned Bobby Hill and Collard, being Kelly and Pickett, not sure what the red flags in those other 3 were?

 

[go_the_dockers]

I’ll never agree with you on the fully draft approach. Every team recruits during a rebuild and the picks on Wilson, Hamling and Matera were fine. Kersten was a spud but the pick is meaningless. The high end picks were the problem (never use high end picks on anything but the draft when rebuilding), we just refused to believe we needed a rebuild

I am not 100% draft only approach, I just don't think any of those players are the right ones. If Dawson, or Rankine was available then I would consider it. The Crows have done it brilliantly, but the players were younger and better than the ones we targetted.

I would add Wilson to that list of high picks that we should have not have traded away. If you trade a 1st or 2nd during a rebuild, and the player does not play a final for you then the trade was a failure.



Wilson, Lobb, Hogan, Clark and Jackson, we have traded away 7 top 25 (3 top 6 picks) picks in 8 years of "rebuilding". In short, this is why we lack talent now, especially as only the last 2 are still on our list.

We are lucky that St Kilda and Gold Coast paid overs for Weller and Hill.

 

[Joao]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue properly against a 100% draft approach because literally nobody has done it. We have not data on it.

We very obviously would have been better off unless Jackson is literally the GOAT or at least the consensus best player in the league for most of his career.

 

[arsesmart]

I was just adding two more examples to the original post that mentioned Bobby Hill and Collard, being Kelly and Pickett, not sure what the red flags in those other 3 were?

I think the whole Shane Yarran (RIP) episode made them a little more circumspect re mature WAFL players with a varied pathway. Both injury and skeletons in the closet kept coming. They were a little more willing with Hogan because he had spent time in the AFL system with some success.

 

[Lateef]

I was just adding two more examples to the original post that mentioned Bobby Hill and Collard, being Kelly and Pickett, not sure what the red flags in those other 3 were?

The intention behind my post wasn’t about any perceived bias from our recruiting team - they haven’t completely avoided drafting or attempting to trade in indigenous players over recent times (Benning, Brockman as examples) and there’s no evidence that I’m aware of to suggest that the club isn’t a good environment for players of any background. My frustration and the point of my original post is that our recruiters don’t seem to place the same value we once did on a strong indigenous element to and culture within our playing group, which is starting to concern/disappoint me and other freo fans I’ve spoken to. If they did, perhaps Hill and Collard would be Freo players? Imagine that!
Yes, it could be circumstantial/ coincidental (we don’t know the backstories to Hill and Collard decisions), but I do wonder if our dwindling indigenous playing group is starting to concern some within the club too, as it may be a difficult culture within the club to rebuild.

 

[bellie4pm]

I think you might be under selling that next 6-7. We had Walters and Ballantyne as genuinely good small forwards. Johnson, Hill, Barlow, Mundy. That's another 6 players of AA or AA squad ability at their best. Even Mayne for a brief period was elite at what he did. Crowley was also elite at what he did. The current squad has a long way to go to match our top end from that era.

I am doubtful we will ever match that top 10 from 2013, and it will be the bottom half of the team where we need to make up the difference.

Love this post for putting this year in perspective, thankyou

For me, the 2013 list gives us an objective way of assessing the quality AND performance of our current list.

For the first time since 2013 our list has the potential to match that august 2013 team.

But their currebt performance is far from this level.

Fyfe
Sandilands
Pavlich
Mcfarlin
Ballantyne
Walters
Mundy
Johnson
Hill

All A graders / actual or potential AA list members

To compare:

• we currently do not have a lock and load AA on our list (thats 45 players i think)
• we have

AB
Serong
Performing at this level
- and we have
Amiss
Jackson
Young
Darcy
Ryan
Pearce
Clark?
Switkowski?
With the proven ability to step up to this level this season.

And we have the leadership and experience of Fyfe and Walters are climbing down this mountain after summiting

We also have the very real potential of
Clark
Chapman
Johnson
Fredericks
Simpson?
making real gains towards AA level performance this season.

We don’t have a coach that has proven his abilities yet. (Not that he won’t, just that he hasn’t.)

So where does that leave us?

• v unlikely to make final 4 this year unless we get 5-6 players all playing at AA level. Does happen, but unlikely.
• 2025 opens our window IF the above players grow and develop in 2024. If not, coach needs to go imho. This should be his pass / fail mark.

Fingers crossed!

 

[rgauci]

Love this post for putting this year in perspective, thankyou

For me, the 2013 list gives us an objective way of assessing the quality AND performance of our current list.

For the first time since 2013 our list has the potential to match that august 2013 team.

But their currebt performance is far from this level.

Fyfe
Sandilands
Pavlich
Mcfarlin
Ballantyne
Walters
Mundy
Johnson
Hill

All A graders / actual or potential AA list members

To compare:

• we currently do not have a lock and load AA on our list (thats 45 players i think)
• we have

AB
Serong
Performing at this level
- and we have
Amiss
Jackson
Young
Darcy
Ryan
Pearce
Clark?
Switkowski?
With the proven ability to step up to this level this season.

And we have the leadership and experience of Fyfe and Walters are climbing down this mountain after summiting

We also have the very real potential of
Clark
Chapman
Johnson
Fredericks
Simpson?
making real gains towards AA level performance this season.

We don’t have a coach that has proven his abilities yet. (Not that he won’t, just that he hasn’t.)

So where does that leave us?

• v unlikely to make final 4 this year unless we get 5-6 players all playing at AA level. Does happen, but unlikely.
• 2025 opens our window IF the above players grow and develop in 2024. If not, coach needs to go imho. This should be his pass / fail mark.

Fingers crossed!

A.Brayshaw was AA in 2022, Serong in 2023, Jackson was squad in 2023, Darcy was squad in 2022 or 21?

Young has the potential. Fyfe and Walters are both ex AA. Jordan Clark could get there.

Cox was squad.

We need the following to be squad;

Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Cox, Jackson, Clark and one more. It’s the latter that’s not ready IMO, it’s Amiss, Johnson, Erasmus, Walker who could potentially play at level but aren’t quite there yet.

 

[pK75]

A.Brayshaw was AA in 2022, Serong in 2023, Jackson was squad in 2023, Darcy was squad in 2022 or 21?

Young has the potential. Fyfe and Walters are both ex AA. Jordan Clark could get there.

Cox was squad.

We need the following to be squad;

Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Cox, Jackson, Clark and one more. It’s the latter that’s not ready IMO, it’s Amiss, Johnson, Erasmus, Walker who could potentially play at level but aren’t quite there yet.

Ryan was also AA in 2020 and has been in the conversation ever since. If Pearce can stay fit he has potential to be squad but doesn’t have the rebound ability to make the final list.

 

[Hammersoup12]

I’d take McDonald and then look for and line breaking midfielders and an elite small forward

100% this. We need outside pace and flair


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[arsesmart]

I’ll never agree with you on the fully draft approach. Every team recruits during a rebuild and the picks on Wilson, Hamling and Matera were fine. Kersten was a spud but the pick is meaningless. The high end picks were the problem (never use high end picks on anything but the draft when rebuilding), we just refused to believe we needed a rebuild

The whole debate on trading vs draft is pretty divisive at times, lots of heightened emotions especially come Oct/Nov, when stuff becomes real.

It’s kinda bird in hand vs bird in bush preference, with the (relatively) known quantity in hand (trade), vs what you might come away with grasping at what looks like prime feathers varying amounts obscured by foliage (draft).

This is why I went with them as separate things yesterday (and tbf I should’ve more clearly flagged my point was more steering it towards development & retention, with a lesser focus on trading and/or drafting beasts).

Going back to that and looking at the draft haul from 2016 (Logue, Darcy, Cox, Ryan)... the temptation is to have no separation between drafting and trading and think we did alright in that.

But if our draft haul had instead been Logue, Josh Battle, Kobe Mutch and Brad Scheer (all the picks immediately after the mitigators of the McCarthy trade), we’d look at it differently.

Ok that’s speculation, but that's the nature of the draft too.

If we look at 2018 there’s no guarantee we would’ve selected King, or that he would’ve had a heap of injuries and then gone home by now (btw substantively have the Suns fared any better for grabbing King?). Certainly we could be better off if we developed Sturt better and retained Schultz, but again it’s the what-if trap.

I’m really wondering whether the non-Vic sides can go the scorched earth draft-development route, given the constantly leaking of first or second tier talent. But we’re kinda on that path and I get the sense we need to do better at development and retention to make the next leap.

 

[rgauci]

Ryan was also AA in 2020 and has been in the conversation ever since. If Pearce can stay fit he has potential to be squad but doesn’t have the rebound ability to make the final list.

Yes. Forgot about Ryan. He is another.

 

[blue shark]

Yes. Forgot about Ryan. He is another.

Ryan if I remember rightly was playing more KPD?
He does play taller than expected.
But he is no quarterback, and we need someone running by for the handball.
Or we need that quick angular kick to an uncontested player.
What stands out is that the stand still on the mark creates space.
Yet we don’t play on? Doesn’t matter how fast you are, it’s how fast you can think
or football, and that makes you quick or adds metres gained.
Other teams go end to end and the opposition are playing catchup.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue properly against a 100% draft approach because literally nobody has done it. We have not data on it.

We very obviously would have been better off unless Jackson is literally the GOAT or at least the consensus best player in the league for most of his career.

Hawks pre 2008 maybe, although times have changed a lot and back then top 10 picks were not valued.

 

[Joao]

Hawks pre 2008 maybe, although times have changed a lot and back then top 10 picks were not valued.

Yeah I definitely think the attention to the detail in the draft is far higher than back then.

 

[arsesmart]

Hawks pre 2008 maybe, although times have changed a lot and back then top 10 picks were not valued.

The '08 Hawks GF side had Stewie Dew, Guerra and Gilham all traded in. There could be an big argument mounted for trades impact via Croad too.

The Hawks probably set the template for icing on the cake trades getting sides better into contention mode.

 

[ilikepotatoes]

Are we really second guessing not picking Marlion Pickett

50

Marlion Pickett

Age

32

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

5.5

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

1.5

4star

D

11.7

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

5.0

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.6

4star

?

With the current accusations against him if he didn't play for a big Vic club there is no way he would still be on an AFL list.

 

[wakojako]

I was just adding two more examples to the original post that mentioned Bobby Hill and Collard, being Kelly and Pickett, not sure what the red flags in those other 3 were?

Don't forget Bolton.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I know it's pre-season yadda yadda but the lack of guys like Worner, Sturt, etc being able to take a step after a few years just shows you how much we're still needing in terms of quality.

The 1-18 when fit kind of pick themselves. But then the 19-25 is kind of this endless churn of players who show flashes but ultimately prove not to be up to it, then move on to the next one.

The real issue for us is that there's a positional mismatch that worsens it. I mean you have guys like Erasmus and Brodie who are genuine AFL players who can't get into the best 23 but we're still actually lacking probably 3 best 22 players in a quality HBF, Wing and HFF/3rd tall.

Logan or no Logan, IMO we have to try to pick positionally for the next year or two.

 

[ubiquitous226]

The intention behind my post wasn’t about any perceived bias from our recruiting team - they haven’t completely avoided drafting or attempting to trade in indigenous players over recent times (Benning, Brockman as examples) and there’s no evidence that I’m aware of to suggest that the club isn’t a good environment for players of any background. My frustration and the point of my original post is that our recruiters don’t seem to place the same value we once did on a strong indigenous element to and culture within our playing group, which is starting to concern/disappoint me and other freo fans I’ve spoken to. If they did, perhaps Hill and Collard would be Freo players? Imagine that!
Yes, it could be circumstantial/ coincidental (we don’t know the backstories to Hill and Collard decisions), but I do wonder if our dwindling indigenous playing group is starting to concern some within the club too, as it may be a difficult culture within the club to rebuild.

The problem is there's always people on this board continuously saying we should pick 'x' WA player, indigenous or not.
The old "even a broken clock is right twice a day" comes to mind.

It would be great if we could maintain a supportive environment for indigenous players and make it a point of strength for the team, but it would be one tertiary factor among many when making recruitment choices.
I thought Bobby Hill was interesting one, he seemed to suit us, who knows maybe he wanted to live over east or we had other individual concerns, but the others you listed are not good examples.
Pickett has not been that great in my view, because of the media hype of debuting in a grand final and having a couple of prominent moments a lot of people rate him very highly as a player.
We didn't even have the pick for Collard, and we don't know why they preferred the Pies F1 - other plans, wanting potential upside for the pick, etc.

It will always ebb and flow a bit, but we literally have an indigenous captain and hold the record for games by indigenous players.
Something to be proud of, but it also can't drive recruitment decisions wholly, just like state origin can't be the be all and end all.

 

[go_the_dockers]

The problem is there's always people on this board continuously saying we should pick 'x' WA player, indigenous or not.
The old "even a broken clock is right twice a day" comes to mind.

It would be great if we could maintain a supportive environment for indigenous players and make it a point of strength for the team, but it would be one tertiary factor among many when making recruitment choices.
I thought Bobby Hill was interesting one, he seemed to suit us, who knows maybe he wanted to live over east or we had other individual concerns, but the others you listed are not good examples.
Pickett has not been that great in my view, because of the media hype of debuting in a grand final and having a couple of prominent moments a lot of people rate him very highly as a player.
We didn't even have the pick for Collard, and we don't know why they preferred the Pies F1 - other plans, wanting potential upside for the pick, etc.

It will always ebb and flow a bit, but we literally have an indigenous captain and hold the record for games by indigenous players.
Something to be proud of, but it also can't drive recruitment decisions wholly, just like state origin can't be the be all and end all.

At the time I did not think Bobby Hill was a small forward. I don't think he played there that much at GWS.

His highest goals in a year was 14, did not average over 10 possessions a game. I can see why we avoided him.

 

[mattis117]

I know it's pre-season yadda yadda but the lack of guys like Worner, Sturt, etc being able to take a step after a few years just shows you how much we're still needing in terms of quality.

The 1-18 when fit kind of pick themselves. But then the 19-25 is kind of this endless churn of players who show flashes but ultimately prove not to be up to it, then move on to the next one.

The real issue for us is that there's a positional mismatch that worsens it. I mean you have guys like Erasmus and Brodie who are genuine AFL players who can't get into the best 23 but we're still actually lacking probably 3 best 22 players in a quality HBF, Wing and HFF/3rd tall.

Logan or no Logan, IMO we have to try to pick positionally for the next year or two.

I don't agree with the sentiment. Premierships are not won by the 20-30th players on the list. Billy Frampton is going to go down in history as a perfect example that really crap players are part of premiership winning teams.
If your top fifteen are good enough, they can carry you all the way. You just need the depth to get you through the home and away season.
That's why the experts are banging on about availability being highly valued in the AFL, you need good players who don't get injured.
Early wins are also crucial so you can rest and manage players before the finals.

 

[mattis117]

At the time I did not think Bobby Hill was a small forward. I don't think he played there that much at GWS.

His highest goals in a year was 14, did not average over 10 possessions a game. I can see why we avoided him.

Bobby Hill has played one good game in his career and suddenly he's a gun small forward. Let's see if he can back it up.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Bobby Hill has played one good game in his career and suddenly he's a gun small forward. Let's see if he can back it up.

Agree

 

[The Feeder Club]

Yeah, it's not like getting testicular cancer in your third year as a player should be a set back in your development.

 

[mattis117]

Yeah, it's not like getting testicular cancer in your third year as a player should be a set back in your development.

Nice strawman.