Religion Bondi shooting - 16 confirmed dead at Jewish event

[Scotland]

Solving those issues will take generations and are extremely complex, but this is the first mass shooting we've had here in a long time and all the guns were legally owned. It's about preventing another act like this.

Gun control really isn't the issue at play here. I'm glad that as a society we don't think it's normal to own an AK-47 or carry around a handgun, but I don't feel unsafe in the knowledge that there are hundreds of thousands of licensed firearms holders with multiple firearms. It's easy after the fact to say that any perpetrator of gun violence should not have been legally allowed to own a gun, but at the end of the day if you are motivated to shoot at hundreds of innocent people in a public space is being denied a permit for a .22 rifle really going to stop you?

 

[Gethelred]

If this about what was being said online or in the media she should have used those forums. Her decision to take it to the vigil is simply disgusting.

This is incompatible with this:

The pathway to resolution includes more open debate and more critical thinking but many modern day progressives see this as a threat which is why they look to cancel, deplatform, blockade and chase off campuses.

You cannot on one hand tell progressives to be open to debate whilst on the other criticising them for trying to have an open debate.

 

[bzparkes]

Oh okay. So are you in favour of deporting Thomas Sewell to a nation more aligned with white Christian supremacy?

Well, he's a New Zealander, ain't he?

Why wouldn't I be in favour of deporting grubs like him?

 

[10571z]

Oh okay. So are you in favour of deporting Thomas Sewell to a nation more aligned with white Christian supremacy?

If Thomas Sewell parents weren’t Australian citizens I would have absolutely zero issue with sending him back to their country of origin.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

We just brought back in isis brides who pledged loyalty to Isis. No way would Albo and Tony Perk ever deport a radical muslim. In fact has a radical Muslim ever been deported?

Are you capable of performing a Google search? It's really not hard to find out. Here, a result that took about 15, seconds to find on Google.

Sheikh deported from Australia on security grounds 'vindicated' by UN finding

The son of an Iranian sheikh who was deported from Australia on security grounds and sent back to Iran welcomes a UN finding that the Australian government's actions violated the sheikh's human rights.

www.abc.net.au

 

[ferball]

Well the main official reasoning for the Iraq war was WMDs, not for religious reasons. Maybe he did invoke the name of 'God', as all presidents do, but the Iraq invasion wasn't performed under religious pretenses.

The main official reasoning doesn't mean anything to the people who suffered because of it. When political commentators and political leaders are also using religious motivations to describe the war then the "official" reason sounds more like a cover than a real reason.

Regardless of what ISIS 'thinks', they have proven to be nothing but disgusting, filthy individuals who ruthlessly enslave, torture and murder anyone in their path. There's no 'understanding' or 'reasoning' with such people.

ISIS wouldn't exist without that invasion. They are shitful humans for sure.

 

[bzparkes]

We just brought back in isis brides who pledged loyalty to Isis. No way would Albo and Tony Perk ever deport a radical muslim. In fact has a radical Muslim ever been deported?

Yes. Some Imam was deported a while back.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm in favour of sending anyone who hates our way of life and actively tries to disrupt it to whatever country aligns with their morals and cultural beliefs, even if they were born here, regardless of ancestry.

... how do you imagine that working out, in practical terms?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Well, he's a New Zealander, ain't he?

Why wouldn't I be in favour of deporting grubs like him?

Australian citizen though. I suppose he's the mirror image of Brenton Tarrant.

Many people advocating deportations, only advocate it for people who don't look like them. If you're not in that camp, that's good to see.

 

[bzparkes]

This is incompatible with this:

You cannot on one hand tell progressives to be open to debate whilst on the other criticising them for trying to have an open debate.

I'm not sure I'd call screaming at a vigil a 'debate'.

Nor is it the time or place for one.

 

[bzparkes]

Is he? Didn't know that. I suppose he's the mirror image of Brenton Tarrant.

Many people advocating deportations, only advocate it for people who don't look like them. If you're not in that camp, that's good to see.

I'd deport anyone who hates our values. Why live here if you want to change it to something else, especially through violence? Just go live somewhere that aligns with your ideals instead.

Plenty of immigrants come here and assimilate into our way of life just fine, after all.

 

[T2B_]

Please tell me what I have in common with the mass shooters.

You want to fuel the cycle of hate and division. You're absolutely part of the problem at the very least.

 

[Bloods86]

What about it?

Do Christians shoot up Mosques and slaughter Muslims around the world on a weekly basis?

Christianity has been used to justify violence for many centuries, millennia even, on a massive and global scale. This continues in some parts of the world against minorities. There's a reason why it's the most populous religion and it's not just by letting others see their good works and hear peaceful evangelism.

We can pretend we're being reasonable by saying it's not a competition and then upend that by pretending one religion has a unique association with violence.

Or we can realise the problem with any religion is extremism, react to that fact, and not let it affect how we perceive the many followers who have nothing to do with it.

 

[Cookie]

Netanyahu, the latent war criminal. lecturing the Australian government was nothing short of appalling.
Political point-scoring at its lowest.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

And we’re supposed to believe she’s actually Jewish.

Every other group of people on earth have diverse political views, but Jews all have to think the same way?

If so she’s a traitor to her people

How dare she not follow the same line of thinking as others of her faith. Everyone must think the same way!

 

[ferball]

That doesn't give her the right to interrupt a vigil for he 'Me, me, me!!!' moment.

Its not my place to say who has the right to do what in these circumstances. I'm not telling any Jewish people how to behave now. But I know Jewish people who hate seeing their Jewishness being used to justify the genocide in Gaza or to stifle criticism of Israel. Some of them might see that flag as an affront to their relatives who died in the Holocaust.

I reckon those people are just as on edge and upset about this as anyone else.

 

[bzparkes]

... how do you imagine that working out, in practical terms?

Well it's obviously never going to happen, for starters, so no point trying to figure out a practical solution.

Having said that, if they are engaging in criminal behaviour related to terrorism(from whatever group they belong to), offer them jail time or a ticket to a country that aligns with their beliefs. If there aren't any, lock them up until they change their mind about things, however long that may take.

 

[Stumpy Pete]

This is incompatible with this:

You cannot on one hand tell progressives to be open to debate whilst on the other criticising them for trying to have an open debate.

Wearing a keffiyeh and talking about Palestine at a vigil being held at the site of a massacre is not an attempt to have an open debate, it is designed to agitate.

Regards

S. Pete

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If Thomas Sewell parents weren’t Australian citizens I would have absolutely zero issue with sending him back to their country of origin.

Why stop at his parents? I'm sure his ancestors came from somewhere else going long enough back. Some Australians are descended from Middle Eastern families who have been here for more than two generations.

 

[schneebly111]

I'm in favour of sending anyone who hates our way of life and actively tries to disrupt it to whatever country aligns with their morals and cultural beliefs, even if they were born here, regardless of ancestry.

Like the many Australian born people who hated our vaccine mandates or strict gun laws (set to become stricter now)?

Should they be deported to a more gun happy vaccine skeptical nation?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Gun control really isn't the issue at play here. I'm glad that as a society we don't think it's normal to own an AK-47 or carry around a handgun, but I don't feel unsafe in the knowledge that there are hundreds of thousands of licensed firearms holders with multiple firearms. It's easy after the fact to say that any perpetrator of gun violence should not have been legally allowed to own a gun, but at the end of the day if you are motivated to shoot at hundreds of innocent people in a public space is being denied a permit for a .22 rifle really going to stop you?

Don't forget you can make yourself a wide variety of firearms yourself if you have access to a 3D printer!

Police are seizing 3D-printed guns across Australia, but our laws aren’t keeping up

Low-cost, untraceable firearms can now be made in suburban garages. Laws to deal with them are inconsistent and put community safety at risk.

theconversation.com

After Martin Bryant killed 35 people and wounded 23 others at Port Arthur in 1996, Australia made fundamental changes to its gun laws. The use of automatic and semi-automatic weapons became restricted and a national gun registry was established.

As a result, unlike the situation in the United States where automatic weapons can be readily obtained, mass shootings are a rarity in Australia.

However, a new and pressing danger in the form of 3D guns, or “ghost guns”, threatens to undermine Australia’s strict gun control laws.

The reason is simple: 3D guns can be manufactured in a suburban garage. In a process like making a dress from a pattern, a digital blueprint for the manufacture of a firearm can be downloaded from the internet. Then, instead of a sewing machine, you need a 3D printer or an electronic milling machine...

 

[bzparkes]

Christianity has been used to justify violence for many centuries, on a massive and global scale. This continues in some parts of the world against minorities. There's a reason why it's the most populous religion and it's not just by letting others see their good works and hear peaceful evangelism.

We can pretend we're being reasonable by saying it's not a competition and then upend that by pretending one religion has a unique association with violence.

Or we can realise the problem with any religion is extremism, react to that fact, and not let it affect how we perceive the many followers who have nothing to do with it.

Just answer the question please: Do Christians shoot up Mosques and slaughter Muslims, or other Christians, on a weekly basis?

Yes or no?

It's not more 'nuanced' than that.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm not sure I'd call screaming at a vigil a 'debate'.

"Progressives need to be open to debate."
"Not like that!"

So much for the open marketplace of ideas.

Nor is it the time or place for one.

This is irrelevant to the argument being made: that progressives are not open to debate.

Either progressives are open to debate and any time is appropriate, or you cannot have a debate at a vigil because there's an appropriate time and place for a debate and this isn't it and people should cease using this for point scoring against progressives.

You cannot have it two ways any more than Stumpy Pete can.

Well it's obviously never going to happen, for starters, so no point trying to figure out a practical solution.

Then why suggest it?

Having said that, if they are engaging in criminal behaviour related to terrorism(from whatever group they belong to), offer them jail time or a ticket to a country that aligns with their beliefs. If there aren't any, lock them up until they change their mind about things, however long that may take.

... thoughtcrime? We're criminalising thoughts now?

At some point, espousing strong sounding yet utterly impossible - without even discussing how reprehensible some of them are - opinions about real world problems will start to wear a little thin, BZ.

Wearing a keffiyeh and talking about Palestine at a vigil being held at the site of a massacre is not an attempt to have an open debate, it is designed to agitate.

You cannot have it both ways.

How do you know that when people tried to have these nebulous debates you cite with progressives that they weren't in the right time and place?

Pick your poison: is there a right time and place for debate and progressives get to nominate them as well, or are progressives simply not open to debate?

 

[1990crow]

Netanyahu, the latent war criminal. lecturing the Australian government was nothing short of appalling.
Political point-scoring at its lowest.

The world will be a better place when he's gone.

 

[bzparkes]

Its not my place to say who has the right to do what in these circumstances. I'm not telling any Jewish people how to behave now. But I know Jewish people who hate seeing their Jewishness being used to justify the genocide in Gaza or to stifle criticism of Israel. Some of them might see that flag as an affront to their relatives who died in the Holocaust.

I reckon those people are just as on edge and upset about this as anyone else.

Sure but it was a vigil for those who died, not a gathering to show solidarity for Israel.