Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[bungalow_bill]

Entire career stats...every single game they've ever played.

Disposals / Goals:

Judd: 22.87 / 0.82
Danger: 22.94 / 1.01
Voss: 21.26 / 0.85
Fyfe: 23.43 / 0.72
Black: 23.54 / 0.53
Pendles: 25.38 / 0.48
Selwood: 24.64 / 0.49
Gablett: 24.92 / 1.25
Bontempelli: 24.14 / 0.98
Martin: 24.24 / 1.12

How does Martin average more disposals AND more goals per game than Danger, Judd, Voss, Fyfe, Black and Bontempelli?

Any non-biased footy fan knows that Martin is an all time great. The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long.

 

[Freddy Swift]

Any non-biased footy fan knows that Martin is an all time great. The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long.

Yes and he was never the same after the bad kidney injury and then his father passed away. Lost all interest then I think.

 

[doppleganger]

Entire career stats...

And cherry picks 2 stats

Why don't you use your career PlayARaTinGs avg? You know the rating that supposedly is scoreboard impact on a game?

 

[Mr Meow]

Please get help Meow, you clearly can't move on. It's a Pies rebuild forum, not a DMPTSD support group.

You've really broken down just because Richmond's champions lack of longevity (thus requirement for accelerated "tear it all down" rebuild) was pointed out - Collingwood's situation differs and therefore their decisions have differed. Pretty simple stuff and it remains entirely relevant to the thread question. You don't actually have to cry simply because Martin's poor output in his 30s (among others) was highlighted. If the Pies old brigade of champs has declined at a similar rate, they absolutely would already be in full rebuild mode. Lucky, lucky Pies...

 

[Corn Cobbers]

You've really broken down just because Richmond's champions lack of longevity (thus requirement for accelerated "tear it all down" rebuild) was pointed out - Collingwood's situation differs and therefore their decisions have differed. Pretty simple stuff and it remains entirely relevant to the thread question. You don't actually have to cry simply because Martin's poor output in his 30s (among others) was highlighted. If the Pies old brigade of champs has declined at a similar rate, they absolutely would already be in full rebuild mode. Lucky, lucky Pies...

Have to agree there was an element of luck

I was all-in for a full clean out and rebuild after 2021, most of them looked finished

Any talk of a flag or even finals seemed ridiculous

Maybe Fly + Daics invigorated the place

 

[ShereKhan]

You've really broken down just because Richmond's champions lack of longevity (thus requirement for accelerated "tear it all down" rebuild) was pointed out - Collingwood's situation differs and therefore their decisions have differed. Pretty simple stuff and it remains entirely relevant to the thread question. You don't actually have to cry simply because Martin's poor output in his 30s (among others) was highlighted. If the Pies old brigade of champs has declined at a similar rate, they absolutely would already be in full rebuild mode. Lucky, lucky Pies...

Yet in the last decade Richmond have 3 flags and Cats and Pies have 1. Which team is lucky again?

 

[Mr Meow]

Yet in the last decade Richmond have 3 flags and Cats and Pies have 1. Which team is lucky again?

The thread is about rebuilds and when to pull the trigger. Instead all it seems to be doing now is triggering you.

 

[doppleganger]

Yet in the last decade Richmond have 3 flags and Cats and Pies have 1. Which team is lucky again?

More picking from the cherry picking king.

 

[ShereKhan]

The thread is about rebuilds and when to pull the trigger. Instead all it seems to be doing now is triggering you.

Apparently the Pies and Cats have ‘done it better’ with their senior players. Yet it’s 3 x flags to 1, so Richmond’s senior players of the era definitely achieved more, so definitely take the cake over Danger and Pendles in respect to team success, which is what it’s all about.

So is it better to play longer … ala Boak who never played in a GF after 2007….or achieve more when you are playing?

I’d take the 3 flags, 3 norms, 3 Ayres medals over 380 games by Boak and no flags, or 350+ games by Danger and 1 flag. But that’s just me

 

[Cdog71]

Pendlebury has been good and durable enough to still be a top-4 side's 2nd most important midfielder in 2025 aged about 40.

Or
Pies chose not to develop their talent enough for somebody to play a role in the midfield in the “unlikely” event a nearly 40 yr old suffers a soft tissue injury at the beginning of the most important game of the year and the entire year falls in a heap 10mtr’s from the finish line.

 

[Mr Meow]

Or
Pies chose not to develop their talent enough for somebody to play a role in the midfield in the “unlikely” event a nearly 40 yr old suffers a soft tissue injury at the beginning of the most important game of the year and the entire year falls in a heap 10mtr’s from the finish line.

The downside of having a few important oldies is the risk of them not getting through a full finals series at their best (at all). It's a valid point. Pendlebury for the PF and Dangerfield for the GF two key examples. I'd actually include Blicavs too...a couple of effective finals and then looked cooked by the end.

Ultimately you are going to need enough players in the 22-28 year old range at their best driving that end of season run. Geelong didn't quite have that in their last games of the 2019-2020 or 2024-2025 finals series. Richmond and Brisbane did - winners are grinners. Close enough isn't good enough. Still, worth having a shot I reckon.

 

[Mr Meow]

Apparently the Pies and Cats have ‘done it better’ with their senior players. Yet it’s 3 x flags to 1, so Richmond’s senior players of the era definitely achieved more, so definitely take the cake over Danger and Pendles in respect to team success, which is what it’s all about.

So is it better to play longer … ala Boak who never played in a GF after 2007….or achieve more when you are playing?

I’d take the 3 flags, 3 norms, 3 Ayres medals over 380 games by Boak and no flags, or 350+ games by Danger and 1 flag. But that’s just me

It's a rebuild thread so I'm not sure why you have the insecure need to screech about 3 flags yadda yadda yadda. It's just making you look emotional and not wanting to discuss the actual thread topic - which is contending teams and when they will need to perform a hard reset.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Do Richmond fans look at Hardwick differently now after the shambles he left the club and the BS about "burnout" only to take up the other gig with the "shiny toys"?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Do Richmond fans look at Hardwick differently now after the shambles he left the club and the BS about "burnout" only to take up the other gig with the "shiny toys"?

The world began in 2017 and ended in 2020, so no

 

[ShereKhan]

Na Chippa.

Just saying that Richmond and Dusty both had a very impressive purple patch, a 4 year period.

Outside of that period, Martin didn't stand-out, and Richmond were ordinary.

Hence the cherry picker ignores full career stats, and full Richmond results to instead isolate small selective cherry picked windows where they were good.

Or random 1.2 and 14.5 triggers or classification as "mid-forward" to not compare Dusty with ALL players.

It is impressive stuff from the picker.

I've updated this for you:

Disposals / Goals:

Judd: 22.87 / 0.82
Danger: 22.94 / 1.01
Voss: 21.26 / 0.85
Fyfe: 23.43 / 0.72
Black: 23.54 / 0.53
Pendles: 25.38 / 0.48
Selwood: 24.64 / 0.49
Gablett: 24.92 / 1.25
Bontempelli: 24.14 / 0.98

Martin: 23.60 / 1.02

But what are the numbers...?? Those are Martin's numbers NOT including his 4-year purple patch of 2017-2020.

So Martin averages more disposals AND more goals than Judd, Danger, Voss, Fyfe & Black....and very comparable stats to Bont - 2% less disposals, but 4% more goals. Just 7% less disposals than Pendles, 53% more goals.

So I've cherry picked stats by removing his best 4-years,.....and he still eclipses a heap of all-time greats.

 

[ShereKhan]

And cherry picks 2 stats

Why don't you use your career PlayARaTinGs avg? You know the rating that supposedly is scoreboard impact on a game?

I cherry picked disposals and goals for a mid/fwd trying to get the ball and kicks goals. DMPTSD

 

[Mr Meow]

I've updated this for you:

Disposals / Goals:

Judd: 22.87 / 0.82
Danger: 22.94 / 1.01
Voss: 21.26 / 0.85
Fyfe: 23.43 / 0.72
Black: 23.54 / 0.53
Pendles: 25.38 / 0.48
Selwood: 24.64 / 0.49
Gablett: 24.92 / 1.25
Bontempelli: 24.14 / 0.98

Martin: 23.60 / 1.02

But what are the numbers...?? Those are Martin's numbers NOT including his 4-year purple patch of 2017-2020.

So Martin averages more disposals AND more goals than Judd, Danger, Voss, Fyfe & Black....and very comparable stats to Bont - 2% less disposals, but 4% more goals. Just 7% less disposals than Pendles, 53% more goals.

So I've cherry picked stats by removing his best 4-years,.....and he still eclipses a heap of all-time greats.

Rebuild thread.

 

[Mr Meow]

I cherry picked disposals and goals for a mid/fwd trying to get the ball and kicks goals. DMPTSD

Rebuild thread.

 

[ShereKhan]

It's a rebuild thread so I'm not sure why you have the insecure need to screech about 3 flags yadda yadda yadda. It's just making you look emotional and not wanting to discuss the actual thread topic - which is contending teams and when they will need to perform a hard reset.

You've spoken glowingly of how Danger and Pendles and many other golden oldies have continued to play and keep the Cats and Pies in contention, whilst mocking Richmond and Martin in particular for retiring earlier. So it's very relevant to discuss whether supporters would prefer players finishing up earlier and an earlier end to contention and 3 flags, or senior players going on and a longer period of contention as the Pies are doing with 1 flag.

If Pies don't win another one in 2026, then history will probably say they took the wrong path, as with Tassie coming in and threadbare youth it looks pretty dire post 2026.

After 35-years of pain and getting pantsed by the Cats for 30-years, with 3 flags and beating Geelong every one of those finals series I'm about as secure as any supporter can get. But thanks for your concern.

 

[Fadge]

Entire career stats...every single game they've ever played.

Disposals / Goals:

Judd: 22.87 / 0.82
Danger: 22.94 / 1.01
Voss: 21.26 / 0.85
Fyfe: 23.43 / 0.72
Black: 23.54 / 0.53
Pendles: 25.38 / 0.48
Selwood: 24.64 / 0.49
Gablett: 24.92 / 1.25
Bontempelli: 24.14 / 0.98
Martin: 24.24 / 1.12

How does Martin average more disposals AND more goals per game than Danger, Judd, Voss, Fyfe, Black and Bontempelli?

Pendles has played 130 more games and still averages more possessions?

Wowee.

 

[Fadge]

Yet in the last decade Richmond have 3 flags and Cats and Pies have 1. Which team is lucky again?

Pick those cherries

 

[ShereKhan]

Pendles has played 130 more games and still averages more possessions?

Wowee.

Rebuild thread.

 

[Mr Meow]

You've spoken glowingly of how Danger and Pendles and many other golden oldies have continued to play and keep the Cats and Pies in contention, whilst mocking Richmond and Martin in particular for retiring earlier. So it's very relevant to discuss whether supporters would prefer players finishing up earlier and an earlier end to contention and 3 flags, or senior players going on and a longer period of contention as the Pies are doing with 1 flag.

If Pies don't win another one in 2026, then history will probably say they took the wrong path, as with Tassie coming in and threadbare youth it looks pretty dire post 2026.

After 35-years of pain and getting pantsed by the Cats for 30-years, with 3 flags and beating Geelong every one of those finals series I'm about as secure as any supporter can get. But thanks for your concern.

Worth having a crack I reckon. Collingwood could end up in a disaster self destruct situation like that Richmond side, but you keep pushing until it's clear you don't belong. Brisbane being absolutely stacked is the main issue for any other club young or old at the moment, that's all.

Veterans holding up for a long time is a critical component of that decision to try and keep competing. If they do, they buy enough time for others to step up or be recruited (which is why Geelong after 2022 didn't follow Richmond despite a tough 2023). If they can't, you end up with the Richmond 2021-2025 scenario - a single top 8 appearance, no finals won, prime aged players + coach jumping the sinking ship, and a complete restart required.

As I stated before, if a bunch of Collingwood and Geelong veterans "Dusty'd" over the past 5 years then they almost certainly would have had to tear the joint down and start again. It didn't happen and so other less radical options can be pursued.

Let's try to coax you into a reply that isn't ranting about how great 2017-2020 was in amongst following an utterly pathetic team for the rest of your life. It isn't relevant to the topic being discussed.

 

[ShereKhan]

Pendles has played 130 more games and still averages more possessions?

Wowee.

I was surprised to see Pendles still had 65% CBA in 2025. It's kudos to him, but it was certainly their undoing late in 2025 as he and Sidey understandably tired, winning just 3 of their last 9.

Going on forever is admirable....but he's getting a whiff of the Travis Boaks about him... where I'm not sure it's best for a team badly needing to get games into youth.

Pies think they're contending as Richmond thought in 2023...but I fear they are not, which is clear to most except Fly and their supporters.

 

[doppleganger]

Rebuild thread.

Tragic picking thread now

PlaYA RaTings career avg

Pendles 14.96 (425 games, 8 seasons above 14 and his peak wasn't even included)
Josh Kennedy 14.52 (6 seasons above 14)
Sloane 14.51 (9 season above 14)
Dusty 14.35 (5 seasons above 14)

You can pick Dusty's good 5 seasons though.