Draft Review 2007 - Redo the 2007 Draft

[Hounddd]

I'll take a stab..

1. Cotchin (a supreme competitor with sublime skill, evasiveness and overall game sense. a joy to watch)
2. Dangerfield (explosive beast of a footballer. can turn a game on its head in the blink of an eye)
3. Walker (a true power forward. a brute of a player who, on his day is unstoppable)
4. Rioli (excitement machine. can win a football match in 10 minutes of brilliance)
5. Taylor (so reliable and assured in defence. proven bigtime gun KPD)
6. Selwood (gut running specialist. supreme consistency displayed in 2012. jet)
7. Ward (super consistent. very reliable midfielder)
8. Kreuzer (undeniable talent. not much he can't do. needs time)
9. McEvoy (took his game to the next level in 2012. very mobile ruckman with good skills)
10. Mumford (big bodied ruckman who is ultra competitive. one of my favourites)
11. Rance (underrated athletic KPD who can play on the gorillas and medium forwards)
12. Grimes (needs continuity to sustain. super talent)
13. Thompson (huge fan. has all the tools to be a very good long term KPD)
14. Henderson (super versatile who has ability to play well at both ends of the ground)

 

[erbenz]

This is probably my bias talking, but I do feel if Masten can have a similar upward improvement as he did this year (Playing a pure HFF), except in the Midfield, I reckon he may well be fixed in the top 10 of this draft's ratings once again by the end of next year.

 

[tribey]

I'll take a stab..

1. Cotchin (a supreme competitor with sublime skill, evasiveness and overall game sense. a joy to watch)
2. Dangerfield (explosive beast of a footballer. can turn a game on its head in the blink of an eye)
3. Walker (a true power forward. a brute of a player who, on his day is unstoppable)
4. Rioli (excitement machine. can win a football match in 10 minutes of brilliance)
5. Taylor (so reliable and assured in defence. proven bigtime gun KPD)
6. Selwood (gut running specialist. supreme consistency displayed in 2012. jet)
7. Ward (super consistent. very reliable midfielder)
8. Kreuzer (undeniable talent. not much he can't do. needs time)
9. McEvoy (took his game to the next level in 2012. very mobile ruckman with good skills)
10. Mumford (big bodied ruckman who is ultra competitive. one of my favourites)
11. Rance (underrated athletic KPD who can play on the gorillas and medium forwards)
12. Grimes (needs continuity to sustain. super talent)
13. Thompson (huge fan. has all the tools to be a very good long term KPD)
14. Henderson (super versatile who has ability to play well at both ends of the ground)

Brad Ebert doesn't sneak in ahead of Thompson and Henderson at least?

He was fantastic last year in what was a shit sandwich of a situation.

 

[yaco55]

Think many forget that Madden despite being an excellent ruck, he also kicked 575 goals

 

[Slattery_20]

Kreuzer often just gets destroyed in the actual ruck contests. That's a pretty big problem.

Concur.
The main feature of a ruckman isn't being great at ground level or being a great kick or taking marks etc.
It all comes back down to job #1. Rucking.

 

[Slattery_20]

This is probably my bias talking, but I do feel if Masten can have a similar upward improvement as he did this year (Playing a pure HFF), except in the Midfield, I reckon he may well be fixed in the top 10 of this draft's ratings once again by the end of next year.

Quite possible, he really came in from the cold this year.

 

[Monkey King]

Think many forget that Madden despite being an excellent ruck, he also kicked 575 goals

If you're talking about me then no, I don't forget. I know how good Madden when he went forward. I don't make the claim on Kreuzer lightly; the Richmond bloke compares him to Mumford and Luenberger, while I just think he's a step above those blokes as a player. And FWIW Madden played 370+ games to get those 575 goals and a good stack of those came playing as a forward. Still, he's the best ruckman I've seen.

 

[Monkey King]

Concur.
The main feature of a ruckman isn't being great at ground level or being a great kick or taking marks etc.
It all comes back down to job #1. Rucking.

I've rarely seen Kreuzer "destroyed" in the ruck. I've seen him beaten a few times, mostly when he's been struggling with his knee and usually it's only at the centre bounce; but even when he loses the hitout count, he does a good job nullifying the effectiveness of the other ruckman, sometimes even roving the tap downs himself. Being an extra mid once the ball hits the deck, kicking goals across his body off his wrong side from the boundary, taking strong marks ... that's what's going to make him one of the best if he can recover from his injury and build on what he's shown already in his career.

 

[Silvagnis]

I'm struggling to come up with a way to be honest. It's not about how ruckmen can do things that midfielders can't, it's about whether that ability means Kreuzer is worth more than Dangerfield or Walker, players who can do things Kreuzer can't.

So it's OK to count out what Kreuzer can do, yet we can't do this with a mid and a forward?

I'd love to know why a Dangerfield, Cotchin, Rioli, Ward or Walker would be worth more to Carlton than Kreuzer's best. I thought the cliche was that we had a lot of midfielders. I guess Cotchin and Rioli are impossible to shut down with Carrazzo and Joseph having good records against these stars. Forwards can struggle if their midfield is being smashed and they're not getting it lace out. Harder to negate a star ruckman who wins hitouts, forces turnovers, kicks goals and pushes back. Cox was a matchwinner against the Dogs this year. Yet Cox didn't make an AA side until he had turned 24.

And again, I wonder why you'd take the gun ruck over the gun midfielder when it seems that gun ruckman are easier to acquire via trading.

How many midfielders were picked and recruited in this year's draft and trade period compared to ruckmen?

Think it was Grundy, McBean, McIntosh and then Currie who is a retread. Rucks aren't easier to find. Richmond have Stephensen and Wood training with them because they only have one AFL quality ruck on their list.

Hampson and Warnock have stood up when Kreuzer has been out, but in no way would I pick them ahead of Kreuzer who is a better and harder footballer.

Rucks might not always stand out like a midfielder or a forward, but like defenders, once they're out, you notice the difference they make to your side. You don't go very far in September without a ruckmen.

But what way does a ruckman, specifically Kreuzer win games that makes him equal or more in value to someone like Dangerfield?

See the difference that a big aggressive ruckman in Jolly, Otten and Maric has made to Collingwood, Geelong and Richmond. They are needed to get sides on a roll and break even, if not win the ruck to give your mids a better chance at clearances. Pies aren't looking at Hudson for shits and giggles.

GWS didn't offer Kreuzer a huge deal last year for the hell of it.

 

[Richo83]

So it's OK to count out what Kreuzer can do, yet we can't do this with a mid and a forward?

I'm not counting it out, I'm merely counting it as less.

I'd love to know why a Dangerfield, Cotchin, Rioli, Ward or Walker would be worth more to Carlton than Kreuzer's best. I thought the cliche was that we had a lot of midfielders. I guess Cotchin and Rioli are impossible to shut down with Carrazzo and Joseph having good records against these stars. Forwards can struggle if their midfield is being smashed and they're not getting it lace out. Harder to negate a star ruckman who wins hitouts, forces turnovers, kicks goals and pushes back. Cox was a matchwinner against the Dogs this year. Yet Cox didn't make an AA side until he had turned 24.

First of all, Walker isn't a midfielder. Secondly, they'd be more valuable because they're better players/perform better more often. The cliche with Carlton isn't that they don't have enough midfielders, it's that they don't have enough inside midfielders, a position that Dangerfield and Cotchin play very well.

How many midfielders were picked and recruited in this year's draft and trade period compared to ruckmen?

And how many ruckmen does a team need compared to a ruckman? A club really only needs four ruckmen, one A grader, a B grader backup and two projects/injury covers.

Think it was Grundy, McBean, McIntosh and then Currie who is a retread. Rucks aren't easier to find. Richmond have Stephensen and Wood training with them because they only have one AFL quality ruck on their list.

It was a bad year for rucks. Kreuzer's year also contained Bellchambers, Mumford and McEvoy. Point is, it's a lot easier to get that one ruck gun through trading, that's half the ruck done right there.

Hampson and Warnock have stood up when Kreuzer has been out, but in no way would I pick them ahead of Kreuzer who is a better and harder footballer.

Okay, but would you rather Warnock and Cotchin or Kreuzer and some B grade midfielder? All this proves is that Carlton probably should have held onto Jacobs and should have traded off one of their other four ruckmen.

Rucks might not always stand out like a midfielder or a forward, but like defenders, once they're out, you notice the difference they make to your side. You don't go very far in September without a ruckmen.

Carlton's most valuable player is Judd followed by Murphy. The top two teams of this year were not the clubs with the best ruck divisions, but the clubs with the best midfielders. Of course, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't be improved by ruckmen, but selecting ruckmen and missing out on star midfielder is a mistake.

See the difference that a big aggressive ruckman in Jolly, Otten and Maric has made to Collingwood, Geelong and Richmond. They are needed to get sides on a roll and break even, if not win the ruck to give your mids a better chance at clearances. Pies aren't looking at Hudson for shits and giggles.

Yes, three traded ruckmen. My point is the draft generally doles out ruckmen and midfielders in proportion to the makeup of club lists. And generally, it's easier to fill one's ruckmen from trades, than midfielders.

GWS didn't offer Kreuzer a huge deal last year for the hell of it.

They targeted everyone from Folau to Thomas.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Absolutely. Him or Danger. Sorry, but any Carlton fans arguing Kreuzer is #1 are just in denial. Not even top five at this point.

1. Carlton - Trent Cotchin
2. Richmond -Patrick Dangerfield
3. West Coast - Cyril Rioli
4. Melbourne - Taylor Walker
5.Western Bulldogs - Matthew Kreuzer
6. Essendon - David Myers
7. Fremantle - Brendon Whitecross
8. Brisbane - Callan Ward
9. St Kilda - Harry Taylor
10. Adelaide - Jack Grimes
11. Sydney - Brad Ebert
12. Hawthorn - Chris Masten
13. West Coast - Scott Thompson
14. Melbourne - Lachlan Henderson

Gets too thin after this. Main point, Kreuzer may well drop further in retrospect. Hard to see him reaching the heights of the four above him.

David Myers and Brendan Whitecross before Harry Taylor, far out.

 

[Monkey King]

All this proves is that Carlton probably should have held onto Jacobs and should have traded off one of their other four ruckmen.

And here comes the depth of knowledge. Yes we should have held on to Grigg too

 

[ArjenTheGreat]

Brad Ebert doesn't sneak in ahead of Thompson and Henderson at least?

He was fantastic last year in what was a shit sandwich of a situation.

Agree with the inclusion of Brad Ebert... Has been better than Kruezer, Grimes, Rance and Hendo but Thompson?

Not a chance.

 

[Browne Eye]

David Myers and Brendan Whitecross before Harry Taylor, far out.

In hindsight I throw Taylor way higher. Overrated Whitecross big time. But as a (one-eyed) Essendon supporter I see Myers coming on in a big way, he's got a gun skill set.

 

[Browne Eye]

And here comes the depth of knowledge. Yes we should have held on to Grigg too

You probably would in retrospect though, right?

 

[Richo83]

And here comes the depth of knowledge. Yes we should have held on to Grigg too

You couldn't hang onto Grigg. I'm just saying, your ruck trading has been fairly odd.

So in 2009, even though Carlton had Kreuzer, Hampson and Jacobs on their list, you, yes, that's right, you trade for Warnock, a decision I found odd at the time and still find odd. Before you say "oh we didn't know these players were good enough" in 2009, Hampson averaged what, 19 hitouts a game, Kreuzer 17 hitouts and nearly 14 touches which is fairly decent. Why Carlton thought that they needed another ruck even though they had the duo of Hampson and Kreuzer, with the handy understudy of Jacobs, I will never know. Heck, Jacobs averaged 22 hitouts in 2010, and was probably pushed out because of Warnock.

I suspect there is knowledge which escapes me but why didn't Carlton keep onto Hampson, Kreuzer and Jacobs and leave Warnock for someone else? Believe me not but I honestly thought before you acquired Warnock that your ruck stocks were good enough.

 

[Richo83]

Agree with the inclusion of Brad Ebert... Has been better than Kruezer, Grimes, Rance and Hendo but Thompson?

Not a chance.

Eh, not sure about that, firstly, it's easy to shine in a rather average Port midfield, and I'm not sure Ebert's kicking is up to scratch. Muffs a lot of kicks.

 

[Richo83]

1. Cotchin (2)
2. Dangerfield (10)
3. Walker (75)
4. Rioli (12)
5. Kreuzer (1)
6. Selwood (22)
7. Mumford (rd 57)
8. Ward (19)
9. Henderson (8)
10. Rance (18)
11. McEvoy (9)
12. Bellchambers (psd 8)
13. Masten (3)
14. Taylor (17)
15. Grimes (14)
16. Ebert (13)
17. Whitecross (29)
18. Thompson (37)
19. Mayne (40)

I rank Thompson and Taylor lower because I think they benefit from having 3 to 4 years on their fellow draftees, giving them an advantage, and I suspect a few more players will surpass them. I also think that if the draft was redone more clubs would still rather the player who offers more years to the club than Taylor. For instance I agree that Taylor is better than Henderson, but Henderson will offer 3-4 more years than Taylor and will probably surpass him. Interestingly enough 16 of the top 19 came from the top 40. But it's fairly even and to be honest I don't see much difference between say the likes of Mumford and Bellchambers.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

1. Cotchin (2)
2. Dangerfield (10)
3. Walker (75)
4. Rioli (12)
5. Kreuzer (1)
6. Selwood (22)
7. Mumford (rd 57)
8. Ward (19)
9. Henderson (8)
10. Rance (18)
11. McEvoy (9)
12. Bellchambers (psd 8)
13. Masten (3)
14. Taylor (17)
15. Grimes (14)
16. Ebert (13)
17. Whitecross (29)
18. Thompson (37)
19. Mayne (40)

I rank Thompson and Taylor lower because I think they benefit from having 3 to 4 years on their fellow draftees, giving them an advantage, and I suspect a few more players will surpass them. I also think that if the draft was redone more clubs would still rather the player who offers more years to the club than Taylor. For instance I agree that Taylor is better than Henderson, but Henderson will offer 3-4 more years than Taylor and will probably surpass him. Interestingly enough 16 of the top 19 came from the top 40. But it's fairly even and to be honest I don't see much difference between say the likes of Mumford and Bellchambers.

Ridiculous explanation. Henderson has had his 3-4 years of mediocrity, while Taylor has played top level footy from his first year. There goes your advantage already.

 

[Monkey King]

You couldn't hang onto Grigg. I'm just saying, your ruck trading has been fairly odd.

No shit. Couldn't hang on to Jacobs either. Was kinda my point

I suspect there is knowledge which escapes me but why didn't Carlton keep onto Hampson, Kreuzer and Jacobs and leave Warnock for someone else? Believe me not but I honestly thought before you acquired Warnock that your ruck stocks were good enough.

Retrospective views usually lack insight and no, I don't believe you thought that at the time. Carlton had long been bereft of any decent ruck and were clearly just trying to get a couple of blokes who might come through. Hampson was just finished his second season and had played 12 average games and been through injury; Kreuzer was a kid just finished his first year; Jacobs was still a rookie list player - you'd probably never even heard of him - and was not at all ready for senior duties (there is a reason every other club overlooked him in the draft you know).

Getting Warnock was a more than reasonable move at the time considering the glut we'd been through. Back then, senior rucks and KPD's were Carlton biggest need.

 

[Monkey King]

You probably would in retrospect though, right?

Would what? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we voluntarily traded these guys.

Honestly, why comment if you don't even know what you're talking about?

 

[Browne Eye]

Would what? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we voluntarily traded these guys.

Honestly, why comment if you don't even know what you're talking about?

They didn't get the opportunities they wanted at the time so they left, but they'd get the opportunities now.

 

[Monkey King]

They didn't get the opportunities they wanted at the time so they left, but they'd get the opportunities now.

Yes. Carlton never voluntarily traded either of these players. Both were regarded as required players, but they had to compete for their opportunity at Carlton. In Jacobs case, he actually played more games than any other ruckman the year before he left, so not quite the picture you're trying paint here; but he wanted to go home to SA and the Crows were guaranteeing him first shot, something he'd have to keep earning at the Blues. Grigg was just a soft **** tbh and I don't all that much regret him leaving.

 

[cotter101]

Pearce Hanley certainly deserves a spot if you consider players taken in the RD.

 

[Richo83]

Ridiculous explanation. Henderson has had his 3-4 years of mediocrity, while Taylor has played top level footy from his first year. There goes your advantage already.

Mediocrity? Sheesh. I think quite a few players will overtake Taylor in this draft, lets be honest, yes Taylor is an excellent defender, but he also benefits from such a good team and a good defensive structure.