Draft Review 2007 - Redo the 2007 Draft

[00Stinger]

I see Grimes is ranked around the 10 mark on everyones lists, which i agree with. However i think he will climb higher up over the next few years (if he stays injury free). This was the 1st season that he actually got to play the whole year

 

[HeHateMe]

if the draft was re done i think this would be the top ten...

1. Carlton - Trent Cotchin: Cant go past him 2 time B&F and now Captain of his club. Started off slow in his first 2 years struggling to get on the park but once fit he has been an A-Grade player. AA this year.

2. Richmond - Cyril Rioli: The safest pick in the draft, has played the 2nd most games out of the draft class. has been Top 8 in his B&F 5 times and as high as 2nd once. AA this year.

3. West Coast - Patrick Dangerfield: Drafted at 17 took some time to develop but, is now one of the most damaging players in the comp. has been 5th and 2nd in his B&F the last two years. AA this year.

4. Melbourne - Scott Selwood: Once breaking in to the midfield and getting his body right has been Top 10 in his B&F 3 times, and wining it once.

5. Western Bulldogs - Taylor Walker: Had a break out year, kicked 63 goals. also 5th in his B&F.

6. Essendon - Callan Ward: A strong in and under mid finished 4th in the Bulldogs B&F last year and won GWS B&F this year. also Co-Captain of his club.

7. Fremantle - Harry Taylor: A mature aged draftee, drafted at 22 has shown the most out of all KPP from this draft. AA in 2010 and Top 10 best and fairest the last 2 years.

8. Brisbane - Jack Grimes: been injury pron his whole career but managed to play 21 games this year. finishing 2nd in his clubs B&F and is already Co-Captain of his club.

9. St Kilda - Scott Thompson: undersized KPD, can play on bigs, mids, smalls and provide dangerous rebound. has finished in his club top 10 B&F 3 times and as high as 2nd twice.

10. Adelaide - Chris Mayne: A dangerous forward who can go though the midfield, top 10 in his B&F twice and 2nd this year.

 

[Daz]

If my club had the opportunity today to take Taylor Walker and picked Scott Selwood instead I'd be leading an angry mob towards Arden St.

 

[Super Hans]

I'd take Danger before Rioli, Ward over Selwood.

 

[HeHateMe]

If my club had the opportunity today to take Taylor Walker and picked Scott Selwood instead I'd be leading an angry mob towards Arden St.

Melbourne just traded for 2 KPF....

ill clarify.. my list is based on if the clubs were to redo the draft now.

 

[Richo83]

Henderson has had the tougher initiation into the AFL. Expected to fill in for the injured J Brown at Brisbane and then seen as Fevola's logical replacement at Carlton. He has only really settled into the key defensive post over the past 2 seasons (and then he got injured.)

Maybe I'm overrating Henderson slightly, but I think he has shown he will develop into one of the top backs in the AFL. His good games have been great. I like his style.

Thompson has been more settled down back and probably done more in his first 5 seasons, but I'd prefer to have Henderson in my team. He is just taking a little bit longer.

And let's not also forget that Henderson is a good 3 and a half years younger than Thompson, who was played as a defender by Geelong's vfl side, drafted as a KPD and has played as one ever since he was drafted. Henderson didn't have that luxury, and yet I predict that he'll surpass Thompson by 26.

Problem with Kreuzer is that while he may be talented, players like Cotchin, Dangerfield, Rioli or Walker are already having elite seasons. If Kreuzer has as good a season as any of these players, he'll be in the top two or so ruckmen in the league. Can Kreuzer do this? I'm not sure to be honest. It's not as if players like Dangerfield have been solid while Kreuzer have struggled, Dangerfield has fulfilled his potential and then some. As a result, Kreuzer will have to become the best he can be to even match these guys. I'm not sure he can, and you'd surely take the exposed form of Cotchin, Dangerfield, Rioli and Walker over Kreuzer if this draft is redone. If anything, you'd be just happy that you got Henderson for Fevola and pick 12.

I also agree that you'd take Dangerfield and Cotchin over Rioli and Walker. Midfielders are more valuable than forwards and it's not as if Cotchin and Dangerfield can't play forward anyway. Dangerfield kicked 23 goals and Cotchin 21 so it's not as if it's just a choice between disposals versus goals.

 

[ArjenTheGreat]

As if Richmond would take Rioli over Walker or Dangerfield!

Please.

 

[Monkey King]

If anything, you'd be just happy that you got Henderson for Fevola and pick 12.

Hawthorn didn't get anything for Fevola sorry.

Agree with you in that it's an unknown, but if Kreuzer gets to the ceiling of his potential there may not be anyone in this draft you'd take before him. The guy has the potential to take a game by the scruff of the neck like only a big man can. Let's just hope he can overcome his injury struggles.

 

[Richo83]

Agree with you in that it's an unknown, but if Kreuzer gets to the ceiling of his potential there may not be anyone in this draft you'd take before him.

Why? Kreuzer seems to be more on the level of Shane Mumford than Dean Cox. He was likened to Brendan Lade by weaver when the draft came around, where weaver remarked that he'd make AA by the age of 28. Even if Kreuzer becomes Dean Cox I'm not sure why there wouldn't be someone else you'd pick over him anyway, Cotchin reminds me of Ablett and I'd pick Ablett over Cox all things being equal.

Kreuzer may become a gun, but Dangerfield is amazing. A fast, tough, goal kicking midfielder with a decent kick and a capacity to win games. Many teams would still take that over "one of the better ruckmen". And given teams have realised that it is possible to trade for a second decent ruckmen given most teams really rely on one or two, it's much easier to fill your ruck stocks than find that elite midfielder. Players like Mumford, Jolly, Jacobs and Maric only prove this. Grundy went low because clubs realise that it's harder to get an A grade midfielder than an A grade ruckman.

The guy has the potential to take a game by the scruff of the neck like only a big man can.

That's a lie and you know it. So no small man can take the game by the scruff of the neck? What about Ablett, or Swan, or Pendlebury, or Judd? These players have frequently won games from their own efforts. To say that only big men can do this is absurd and is trying to justify picking Kreuzer by assuming some big man exceptionalism.

 

[Richo83]

As if Richmond would take Rioli over Walker or Dangerfield!

Please.

Richmond would take Dangerfield. Considering Cotchin is lost it makes the most sense.

 

[juss]

As if Richmond would take Rioli over Walker or Dangerfield!

Please.

Yeh have to agree.
Cotchin/Dangerfield are the clear top 2, and given that KPFs are pretty hard to find I'd take Walker 3rd. Rioli then 4th and Kreuzer (based largely on potential and that rucks take longer) 5th.

 

[Slattery_20]

There's only 1 genuinely good big forward, a number of tall backs of varying quality and a very very good group of midfielders.
IMHO, Carlton would go for Walker, every day of the week. Still a requirement for them, 5 years on.
Richmond would (obviously) stick with Cotchin, WCE probably go for Dangerfield.
Gets murky after that, probably Rioli for the Dees, or maybe even Cal Ward comes into it? (don't need a ruck), Dogs (also weak for tall forwards) maybe go for Henderson, or Taylor?


I'm not sure Kreuzer would go anywhere near #1. Pretty strong group of rucks, Kreuzer obviously, then McEvoy, Mumford, Bellchambers - all somewhat proven and good quality (also Dawson Simpson, Stef Martin & Jake Spencer). One of those 4 good rucks would probably still be there at 36 for Carlton.

 

[Monkey King]

Why? Kreuzer seems to be more on the level of Shane Mumford than Dean Cox. He was likened to Brendan Lade by weaver when the draft came around, where weaver remarked that he'd make AA by the age of 28. Even if Kreuzer becomes Dean Cox I'm not sure why there wouldn't be someone else you'd pick over him anyway, Cotchin reminds me of Ablett and I'd pick Ablett over Cox all things being equal.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Cotchin with a Tigers supporter. He's a great player no doubt, but you guys are way too defensive when it comes to discussion on this guy.

I will say that Krezuer is more like John Nichols that Dean Cox in the way he has the potential to have greater impact on games and contests than Cox does if he can reach his ceiling and maintain it. I don't care what Weaver says about his TAC days, I've seen this guy do impressive things at AFL level and that's what I base my comments on.

That's a lie and you know it. So no small man can take the game by the scruff of the neck?

Slow down and think about what I've said. Big men take the game by the scruff of the neck in a way that little men just can't. I never said mids can't take hold of games themselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine; I just posted to say two things basically, that Chewy is not a Carlton poster like it appeared you thought, and secondly that I don't agree with your assessment of Kreuzer, who was picked before Cotchin for a reason. Now we just sit in hope that he can fulfill what that reason was.

 

[mufassa]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Cotchin with a Tigers supporter. He's a great player no doubt, but you guys are way too defensive when it comes to discussion on this guy.

I will say that Krezuer is more like John Nichols that Dean Cox and I think he has the potential to have greater impact on games and contests than Cox does if he can reach his ceiling and maintain it. I don't care what Weaver says about his TAC days, I've seen this guy do impressive things at AFL level and that's what I base my comments on.



Slow down and think about what I've said. Big men take the game by the scruff of the neck in a way that little men just can't. I never said mids don't do it. You have your opinion, I just posted to say two things basically, that Chewy is not a Carlton poster like it appeared you thought, and secondly that I don't agree with your assessment of Kreuzer, who was picked before Cotchin for a reason. Now we just sit in hope that he can fulfill what that reason was.

Big call on Cox - he is the best ruckman I have seen in the last 25 years. I am not sure Krezuer ceiling is that high. I think he can be very good - but Cox is a freak. His 2008 year was huge - 486 disposals 571 hit outs. 16 games with 20 plus disposals. As it stands if the Blues had a pick and had the benefit of hind sight they would have to pick Cotchin.

 

[Slattery_20]

Yeh have to agree.
Cotchin/Dangerfield are the clear top 2, and given that KPFs are pretty hard to find I'd take Walker 3rd. Rioli then 4th and Kreuzer (based largely on potential and that rucks take longer) 5th.

Agree, but you have to think about value (ie the step down from the 2nd best mid to 3rd 4th 5th; vs the step down from the best tall forward to the 2nd 3rd etc).
There's a number of rucks, number of midfielders, tall backs etc. So I'd say Walker is the clear stand-out on that front - IMHO not *that* far behind Dangerfield in terms of quality (Cotchin being, IMHO, the best player from the draft)

 

[Monkey King]

Big call on Cox - he is the best ruckman I have seen in the last 25 years. I am not sure Krezuer ceiling is that high. I think he can be very good - but Cox is a freak. His 2008 year was huge - 486 disposals 571 hit outs. 16 games with 20 plus disposals. As it stands if the Blues had a pick and had the benefit of hind sight they would have to pick Cotchin.

It's not slur on Cox, he's one of the great ruckman. I think Kruezer could be as good or even better than Simon Madden, who is probably the best ruckman I can remember. I understand a lot of people don't think his ceiling is that high, but I just happen to disagree. He's the most impressive youngster I've seen at Carlton in the last 15 years.

As it stands, Cotchin would be the better pick I agree, but things never stand still, just like Kreuzer was the better pick for the first couple of years after that draft until doing an ACL. I get most people have given up on him, I haven't and perhaps that's the Navy Blue coursing through my veins more than good sense. IF he hits his ceiling, there is every chance he'll be as good or better than anyone from this draft.

 

[Slattery_20]

LOL at Madden comparisons.
Madden was better at 17 than Kreuzer is at, what, 23?

 

[LOL_Cats]

Arh Cotchin and Dangerfield.

Proceed to masturbate

 

[Richo83]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Cotchin with a Tigers supporter. He's a great player no doubt, but you guys are way too defensive when it comes to discussion on this guy.

What about Dangerfield? I only use Cotchin because he's probably the guy Carlton would have picked if they couldn't draft Kreuzer.

I will say that Krezuer is more like John Nichols that Dean Cox in the way he has the potential to have greater impact on games and contests than Cox does if he can reach his ceiling and maintain it. I don't care what Weaver says about his TAC days, I've seen this guy do impressive things at AFL level and that's what I base my comments on.

As mufassa said, saying Kreuzer can even reach Cox's level, let alone surpass it is a fair stretch, he's never shown any sign of becoming as good as him and even ruckmen who have remained fit haven't come close to him. For instance I doubt the likes of Leuenberger or Mumford will become as dominant as Cox, he's a beast. The only guy who comes close is Sandilands, who benefits from being 211 cm tall.

And again, I wonder why you'd take the gun ruck over the gun midfielder when it seems that gun ruckman are easier to acquire via trading.

Slow down and think about what I've said. Big men take the game by the scruff of the neck in a way that little men just can't. I never said mids can't take hold of games themselves.

But what way does a ruckman, specifically Kreuzer win games that makes him equal or more in value to someone like Dangerfield? I'm struggling to come up with a way to be honest. It's not about how ruckmen can do things that midfielders can't, it's about whether that ability means Kreuzer is worth more than Dangerfield or Walker, players who can do things Kreuzer can't.

You have your opinion, I have mine; I just posted to say two things basically, that Chewy is not a Carlton poster like it appeared you thought, and secondly that I don't agree with your assessment of Kreuzer, who was picked before Cotchin for a reason. Now we just sit in hope that he can fulfill what that reason was.

Your reasoning for picking Kreuzer is based on an assumption he may become as good as or even better than Dean Cox. That's unreasonable. I also never thought chewy was a blues supporter, my comment was made in general.

 

[Richo83]

It's not slur on Cox, he's one of the great ruckman. I think Kruezer could be as good or even better than Simon Madden, who is probably the best ruckman I can remember. I understand a lot of people don't think his ceiling is that high, but I just happen to disagree. He's the most impressive youngster I've seen at Carlton in the last 15 years.

That doesn't say much about Carlton then! I also think you're overrating Kreuzer's ability and talent, and you're forgetting the fact that sometimes, big men have all the talent in the world, but don't manage to put it all together.

And I know slattery picked up on the Madden comment, but I have to chime in, seriously, Madden? The guy received the equivalent of 12-13 brownlow votes in his fourth year, that's pretty damn impressive.

As it stands, Cotchin would be the better pick I agree, but things never stand still, just like Kreuzer was the better pick for the first couple of years after that draft until doing an ACL. I get most people have given up on him, I haven't and perhaps that's the Navy Blue coursing through my veins more than good sense. IF he hits his ceiling, there is every chance he'll be as good or better than anyone from this draft.

They wont stand still for Dangerfield either. Dangerfield was drafted as a 17 year old and started slowly. There's no doubt that he'll improve, he may well become the best player in the league, let alone his draft.

 

[Slattery_20]

That doesn't say much about Carlton then! I also think you're overrating Kreuzer's ability and talent, and you're forgetting the fact that sometimes, big men have all the talent in the world, but don't manage to put it all together.

And I know slattery picked up on the Madden comment, but I have to chime in, seriously, Madden? The guy received the equivalent of 12-13 brownlow votes in his fourth year, that's pretty damn impressive.

...aged 19, rucking against guys like Len Thompson, Gary Dempsey, Percy Jones et al, and also kicking 30-odd goals (again) into the bargain. Crazy, ridiculous, stupidly good.

Kreuzer could be good, very good even.
But throwing up names like Cox & Madden just does him no good at all IMHO.

 

[Daz]

Kreuzer often just gets destroyed in the actual ruck contests. That's a pretty big problem.

 

[W. Smithers]

Re: re do the 2007 draft now that we know what we know

Pretty happy with Morton and Grimes thanks. Morton needs to fill out a bit but he will play 200 games. Top-10 in b&f in your second year is pretty decent.
Grimes will be captain of the club. Is a gun.

1 out of 2 ain't bad

 

[Monkey King]

That doesn't say much about Carlton then! I also think you're overrating Kreuzer's ability and talent, and you're forgetting the fact that sometimes, big men have all the talent in the world, but don't manage to put it all together.

And I know slattery picked up on the Madden comment, but I have to chime in, seriously, Madden? The guy received the equivalent of 12-13 brownlow votes in his fourth year, that's pretty damn impressive.

Bolded is about the value of your statement. Perhaps I am overrating Kruezer, perhaps you're underrating. Of course I will say it's a healthy dose of the latter given some of your comments. I've seen a lot of Carlton over the years; he's the most impressive youngster I've seen there in 15 years. Kreuzer has put it together a few times and before injury your "all the talent in the world" comments would have appeared little more than idiocy.

Re your Madden comment; in Kreuzer's 3rd season he did his knee. I've never claimed he would track as Madden did, just that I see him having the potential to be that good. And I don't need to be told how good Madden was, I saw him play many times.

Your reasoning for picking Kreuzer is based on an assumption he may become as good as or even better than Dean Cox. That's unreasonable. I also never thought chewy was a blues supporter, my comment was made in general.

But I haven't picked Kreuzer. I've just said if he can reach his ceiling he could be ranked as good or better than any player from this draft. I'm not going to keep going it over with you; you don't have to agree, but you're not going to change my mind with your words unless accompanied by erasing from my memory big chunks of football.

Re Chewy you happened to say "at least you got". Yeah ... whatever

 

[Monkey King]

LOL at Madden comparisons.
Madden was better at 17 than Kreuzer is at, what, 23?

As what ... a forward?

I've never said Kreuzer has performed to Madden's level, although I've seen him come close in the odd game to be truthful. And I've given Madden his kudos in saying he's the best ruckman I've seen play. I'm under no illusions as to what a lofty height that is. Before Kreuzer did his knee, he was tracking for great things; literally won a game his own boot in his first year. I just don't think he's finished in this regard. Yes he's has had plenty of issues with the knee since the reco, but the reports are this won't be forever lasting, so fingers crossed we all get to see his best; it would be footy's loss if we didn't.