2012 list management.

[Tazwegian]

Leaderboard after Round 14

1. Ablett (381)
2. Bennell (287)
3. Iles (190)
4. Swallow (130)
5. Hunt (117)

Iles top 3 after round 14, despite missing four games and being so "poor defensively", according to some.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/votes-vs-eagles-rd-14.959243/

Tell me again where all these people were at that stage of the year saying how poor Sam Iles is defensively?

 

[CoastBhoy]

Sammy gets delisted !!!
we [now you] have dead wood in Brennan and Brown as well as liam lame pickering [no i have spelt it right] floating around and yes I know they are still contracted or re contracted but I would pay them out and have kept Sammy
I am one unhappy soon to be ex-paid up foundation member
i will be delisting the suns
no more family trips to qld from melbourne to watch the games
hope sammy gets picked up in vic
well done bull 2 more years
see you in melbourne

Sending this post to forensics , will post results later on.

 

[exile]

Ahh jesus! I still need to tally up the votes for our board MVP! hahaha. I finish uni in just over a week, I'll get it done then. Promise.

 

[Sunny_]

Taz, please relax. I would appreciate it if you stopped implying that our list is terrible, too. On our own board, no less. It's going to stir a few feathers.

 

[SC_GC]

Taz, we get it you like Iles, as did most people but your consistent posting of irrelevant statistics is getting pretty tiresome.

 

[pocketback]

Sending this post to forensics , will post results later on.

Hi all sorry for the post
word of warning never leave the computer logged on when you leave the house and your brother inlaw is still inside

 

[Tazwegian]

Taz, please relax. I would appreciate it if you stopped implying that our list is terrible, too. On our own board, no less. It's going to stir a few feathers.

I'm not implying that though. I was saying that if Iles is as unworthy of your list as some people are saying, and he managed to be top 3 after round 14 despite missing four games, then what would that say about your list? I don't think Iles is unworthy though, so I don't think the fact that Iles was third in the bigfooty MVP says anything negative about your list. That's what I am trying to show people. I am not trying to say your list is terrible, I am trying to say that Iles is good.

I don't think your list is terrible, I just think your list managers made a terrible (unfair) decision.

I will tone it down, it is not my board anymore so I will respect that. Just annoying how a few people are suddenly claiming Iles is poor defensively, when nobody was raising this issue mid way through the year. In fact, not until he was delisted.

 

[longytap]

Having followed Sam Iles from day one and supporting teams that have delisted him twice, I am not surprised at all. Firstly, I don't think anyone genuinely believes he was in our best 10 players. Lets be honest he was a fringe 22 guy. To that extent what does he offer to the team? If you were in the selection meeting, and the concensus was to play a kid over Iles, what argument would you use against this happening? You can't say: "we'll we can't drop Iles because he offers us so much ..... ?"? What could you say that he offers the team that a kid wouldn't? He has no real weapons at all. Conversely he has really only one weakness and that is his defensive intensity or work rate. He's a jack of all trades master of none who has a weakness. Nothing you can hang your hat on and say he offers this.[/quote

Agree totally with this post. He was a fringe player, nothing more. Was serviceable in his time on the list, but the fact we need to reduce our list has sealed his fate. When you sit down and try and see where he fits in our 22 or 25, he misses out every day of the week. To put it in perspective, i struggle to fit guys like Gorringe and Day in the 22. And there top 10 draft picks.

 

[longytap]

Sorry Darkwing, i don't know what i did there, but its somehow merged my comment with yours?

 

[Dammit]

No worries at all mate, I'll be a good bloke and take credit for both haha

 

[WrongUn]

Few interesting 2012 player averages:

The good:
Gazza leading tackler (Horsley 2nd).
Gazza most inside 50's (Bennell 2nd)
Gazza most contested possessions (Swallow 2nd).
Gazza most uncontested possessions (Iles 2nd).
Gazza most effective disposals (Iles 2nd).
Gazza most clearances (Bennell 2nd).
Iles leads rebound defensive 50 (Gazza 2nd).
Warnock lead the one percenters (Thompson 2nd).
Patrick lead bounces per game (Harbrow 2nd).
Smith leading hitouts per game (Hickey 2nd).
Matera lead the goal assists (Gazza 2nd).
Hickey is the clubs leading contested mark per game (May 2nd).

The bad:
Gazza is our clanger king (Brennan 2nd).
Wilkinson averaged most frees against (Brennan 2nd).

 

[Tazwegian]

Few interesting 2012 player averages:

The good:
Gazza leading tackler (Horsley 2nd).
Gazza most inside 50's (Bennell 2nd)
Gazza most contested possessions (Swallow 2nd).
Gazza most uncontested possessions (Iles 2nd).
Gazza most effective disposals (Iles 2nd).
Gazza most clearances (Bennell 2nd).
Iles leads rebound defensive 50 (Gazza 2nd).
Warnock lead the one percenters (Thompson 2nd).
Patrick lead bounces per game (Harbrow 2nd).
Smith leading hitouts per game (Hickey 2nd).
Matera lead the goal assists (Gazza 2nd).
Hickey is the clubs leading contested mark per game (May 2nd).

The bad:
Gazza is our clanger king (Brennan 2nd).
Wilkinson averaged most frees against (Brennan 2nd).

Sorry, couldn't resist .

How bloody good is Gazza though? Clangers aren't a problem really for Gazza, because he touches the ball more. Therefore, you'd expect him to clanger more. His clanger per possession ratio would be fairly normal - maybe slightly high. But he makes up for it with effective disposals.

 

[WrongUn]

Well Taz, this one is for you then...

When opposition clubs analylize our players pre-game, these were the Suns 5 key players for the 2012 season in order of ranking. (Averages per game of effective key statistics combined).

G. Ablett 19.4 kicks, 14.3 hballs, 33.8 disps, 1.3 goals

S. Iles 14.6 kicks, 9.2 hballs, 23.8 disps, 6.0 marks

D. Stanley 12.5 kicks, 11.5 hballs, 24.1 disps, 7.1 marks

H. Bennell 12.4 kicks, 11.3 hballs, 23.7 disps, 1.1 goals

D. Swallow 10.8 kicks, 8.0 hballs, 18.8 disps

 

[Tazwegian]

Well Taz, this one is for you then...

When opposition clubs analylize our players pre-game, these were the Suns 5 key players for the 2012 season in order of ranking. (Averages per game of effective key statistics combined).

G. Ablett 19.4 kicks, 14.3 hballs, 33.8 disps, 1.3 goals

S. Iles 14.6 kicks, 9.2 hballs, 23.8 disps, 6.0 marks

D. Stanley 12.5 kicks, 11.5 hballs, 24.1 disps, 7.1 marks

H. Bennell 12.4 kicks, 11.3 hballs, 23.7 disps, 1.1 goals

D. Swallow 10.8 kicks, 8.0 hballs, 18.8 disps

Haha, cheers. The evidence is really on my side, isn't it?

 

[Dammit]

Stats mean literally nothing at all.

 

[WrongUn]

Stats mean literally nothing at all.

Hawthorn's top 5 ranked key players for 2012 in order (Averages per game of effective key statistics combined).

S. Mitchell 14.4 kicks, 12.8 hballs, 27.2 disps

L. Franklin 13.2 kicks, 18.4 disps, 5.8 marks, 3.6 goals

G. Birchall 13.7 kicks, 9.4 hballs, 23.1 disps, 5.9 marks

J. Lewis 11.0 kicks, 11.2 hballs, 22.3 disps, 1.2 goals

B. Sewell 12.9 kicks, 12.5 hballs, 25.4 disps

These guys mean nothing? It's a fairly decent indicator of who you need to nulify when playing the Hawks to give you a better chance of winning the game. For better or worse, stats are everything in football now.

 

[Tazwegian]

Stats mean literally nothing at all.

Don Bradman says hi.

Funny how they mean "nothing at all" when they completely fly in the face of everything you have been saying. I am sure if Iles averaged one disposal per game, you'd be throwing that little stat at me trying to justify your position. But because Iles' stats are solid in every single category, you have to rubbish stats completely. Funnily though, I don't even need the stats, because I have seen most games he has played and I watch very closely, not really caring too much about the other players (apart from Russell, Weller, Hall, and Gazza). I don't even care if Gold Coast win or lose, all I care about is the progress of the Tassie boys. So I know how he performed probably better than most people on this board, and I am very confident you can go and watch the replays and you will find very little to support your position.

On top of that, I have non traditional 'stat' related evidence, like the fact that seven out of his ten games for the Suns, he was judged in the Suns best players (although i did present that as a stat). He was solid for the other three games too. Like the fact that everyone who votes on player performance on this board had him top 3 in the best and fairest as of the round he was dropped. Despite him missing three games.

So what argument is there left against Sam Iles? I think I have made my case quite conclusively. Sam was clearly one of your best players, he was treated unfairly. I don't see how anyone can possibly disagree.

 

[Tazwegian]

S. Mitchell 14.4 kicks, 12.8 hballs, 27.2 disps

L. Franklin 13.2 kicks, 18.4 disps, 5.8 marks, 3.6 goals

G. Birchall 13.7 kicks, 9.4 hballs, 23.1 disps, 5.9 marks

J. Lewis 11.0 kicks, 11.2 hballs, 22.3 disps, 1.2 goals

B. Sewell 12.9 kicks, 12.5 hballs, 25.4 disps

Pfft... Those guys all have poor 'defensive ability'

It would be interesting to run that analysis on every single team, and see if a single player other than Iles comes up who people on this board would agree deserve to be delisted from their respective club. My hypothesis is that there wouldn't be. If you are good enough to be ranked 5th in the club using that system, it would be pretty well sufficient that you are a good enough player to keep your career going. Iles is actually top 2, so makes the equation even more favourable.

 

[Dammit]

Hawthorn's top 5 ranked key players for 2012 in order (Averages per game of effective key statistics combined).

S. Mitchell 14.4 kicks, 12.8 hballs, 27.2 disps

L. Franklin 13.2 kicks, 18.4 disps, 5.8 marks, 3.6 goals

G. Birchall 13.7 kicks, 9.4 hballs, 23.1 disps, 5.9 marks

J. Lewis 11.0 kicks, 11.2 hballs, 22.3 disps, 1.2 goals

B. Sewell 12.9 kicks, 12.5 hballs, 25.4 disps

These guys mean nothing? It's a fairly decent indicator of who you need to nulify when playing the Hawks to give you a better chance of winning the game. For better or worse, stats are everything in football now.

So you're saying that Buddy is NOT their most important/best player? And that Lewis/Sewell/birchall are better/more important than Cyril/Roughead? Really?

As for this "For better or for worse, stats are everything in football now", I can say with 100% confidence and knowledge that this absolutely is NOT the case. From a coaching perspective using KPI's as a measurement tool is very useful. Outside of that, I can basically guarantee you that possessions and useless stats like that aren't even looked at on the coaching level. It's just for the fans. I promise you that opposition coaches DO NOT base their analysis on these types of stats.

 

[Dammit]

Don Bradman says hi.
= [color=]cricket is a completely different sport. Are you actually serious? Worst analogy/comment ever. [/color]

Funny how they mean "nothing at all" when they completely fly in the face of everything you have been saying. [color=]i have always maintained that stats mean nothing. Ask Iva in the goals per game Tippett debate. [/color]
I am sure if Iles averaged one disposal per game, you'd be throwing that little stat at me trying to justify your position. But because Iles' stats are solid in every single category, you have to rubbish stats completely. Funnily though, I don't even need the stats, because I have seen most games he has played and I watch very closely, not really caring too much about the other players (apart from Russell, Weller, Hall, and Gazza). I don't even care if Gold Coast win or lose, all I care about is the progress of the Tassie boys. So I know how he performed probably better than most people on this board, and I am very confident you can go and watch the replays and you will find very little to support your position.
= [color=] What's my position again? I didn't respond to you the first time because you seemed like a massive know it all who was trolling. All I said this time was that stats mean nothing. [/color]

On top of that, I have non traditional 'stat' related evidence, like the fact that seven out of his ten games for the Suns, he was judged in the Suns best players (although i did present that as a stat). He was solid for the other three games too. Like the fact that everyone who votes on player performance on this board had him top 3 in the best and fairest as of the round he was dropped. Despite him missing three games.
= [color=] Yeah he was consistent. That doesn't dispute my earlier post about him having nothing in an attribute sense that he can hang his hat on, or that he has defensive weaknesses. [/color]

So what argument is there left against Sam Iles? I think I have made my case quite conclusively. Sam was clearly one of your best players, he was treated unfairly. I don't see how anyone can possibly disagree.
= [color=]Well no, my original 'argument' is completely valid. Anyway, how was he treated unfairly? Was he unfairly dismissed? Was he sacked mid contract? We're the boys mean to him at training? I mean, this is elite sport man. Players get offered contracts. Sometimes they are not renewed. Players are moved on and delisted all the time. To say he was treated unfairly can only be seen as sooking and being biased to the point of being unreasonable. [/color]

Anyway why keep badgering on about it? What are you looking for? It's okay that we all don't agree with you. What more do you keep fishing for?

Please respond.

 

[Dammit]

Sorry I couldn't get the colour thing working, I'm on my phone.

 

[supernova_]

What if Iles tried to crack onto Blueys wife? Or something non football related...I want to see stats!!!

 

[Tazwegian]

Anyway why keep badgering on about it? What are you looking for? It's okay that we all don't agree with you. What more do you keep fishing for?

Please respond.

1. For people to stop saying he has 'poor defensive ability' without actually knowing what they are talking about.

2. For people to admit he was well and truly inside their best 22, and at least admit that it is very probably he is best 10. I think he is top 5, but I don't expect everyone to agree with the evidence.

3. For people to understand that most youngsters on your list won't get to his current ability, it simply won't happen. There will be a few that surpass him, some that already have (Bennell and possibly Swallow). That's not because your list is bad, it is because most youngsters don't end up all that good. Go and look through the last ten drafts if you don't believe me. Lots of hacks get drafted. Sam Iles is no hack.

As for whether elite sportspeople can be treated unfairly, of course they can. They are humans and all humans have a sense of fairness. Fairness, in the sense I am using it, is defined as "being in accordance with relative merit or significance". In accordance with Iles' merit as a footballer relative to his fellow players, he should have received a new contract. No doubt about it. That would be fair. It didn't happen, so it is unfair. I am yet to come across a definition of 'fairness' that excludes elite sportspeople. If you can find one, let me know.

 

[exile]

i thought iles was good for us this year, and was very unlucky to get delisted. that's all i'm gonna say without going into stats, etc.

like and share if u agree !!!1!

 

[SUNS]

like and share if u agree !!!1!

Like if you can see the hidden 1

Anyways, What are people thinking about Jack Hutchins. I feel if he was gonna go, he would be gone by now. Has been unlucky with injuries but shows signs of being a tough defender.

Will he/should he be here in 2013 and beyond?